Opinions please - am I going to be let go? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Lit 4th year here- I will also say with paralegals issues are often caused by not knowing how to properly delegate and manage rather than because of a lack of substantive knowledge - which again is something you learn with time. Experienced paralegals are more valuable than junior biglaw associates by the sheer virtue of filing stuff, knowing the rules, knowing the clerks, etc. However, biglaw hires paralegals the same way it hires associates - they hire people fron good colleges who are smart and who want to live in the city for a few years before deciding whether to go to law school or do something else - these are not folks who came out of college wanting to make binders or fill out scheduling orders. Some people end up staying but most rotate out just when they are getting enough experience to know stuff.

As a result, your paralegal is probably as experienced as you are, meaning that they are going to inevitably screw up any task you give them. Try to make friends with the senior paralegals and you can ask them the minutiae of court rules. No shame - partners do it all the time.

[Anonymous User]

OP - 4th year biglaw lit associate here. Unfortunately I cannot tell you whether you will be canned as it is highly firm and economy specific. I will say though, that your mistakes sound like mistakes I have made constantly over the course of my career and your partners sound like a partner who once chewed me out and threatened that I wouldn't last six months - and yet I got my bonus that year and advanced in class anyway. Some partners demand completely unreasonable standards of perfection from associates such that if every associate who got that talk from a partner was out the door there would be nobody left to staff cases. Some partners use associates as punching bags for their own stress. Do good work for the non-insane partners and the other partners will find someone more junior to pick on.

As for the specific issues you face, they are common even among senior associates. The amount of shit you do not know and do not know that you do not know is staggering when you are a general litigator and you are bound to fuck up along the way.

Typos are one of those things that you get better at spotting with time and experience because you learn what to look for quickly. Stuff like consistently formatted brief headings, common BB mistakes, inconsistent formatting within a document, defined terms, two spaces between sentences, periods inside vs outside the parens...this crap is all very visible to senior associates or partners and juniors dont even notice no matter how many times they read the document. Just keep working at it and you will improve with time.

As for court rules you are a biglaw associate. You are not going to have a grasp of court rules because you are hardly ever in court or filing documents. Again, experienced senior associates have not seen enough situations to have a good grasp of local rules for the courts they are typically in. You will screw up in ways that you probably do not even understand because you have no idea what to look for. Do you have a managing clerk's office that is experienced with all the local courts? If so, run everything even remotely procedural by them before confirming with the partner.

I agree with all of the above.

P good advice

My strategy for rules which may or may not work w your partner is when he asks what our plan should be I try to bring a printout of the applicable rules to our planning sesh so he knows exactly what I plan to do and why I plan to do it

Sometimes when he looks at a rule and says "okay but what about xyz" I say "not sure about that but happy to take another look at the rules and get back"

I NEVER answer a rules question off the cuff or formulate a plan for a partner without having the applicable rule on hand to point to. This includes ostensibly simple things like "how many days do we have to file a reply"

When I look for the applicable rules I look at the following, in order

Edit - step 0) look in your doc mgmt system to see if anyone before has done what you're trying to do. This will get you started. But don't blindly trust this example. Someone may have fucked it up or it may not be completely applicable to your situation

1) federal or state rules

2) local rules for district or circuit (most fed cts def have local rules, and even some state courts)

2(a) local rules for the specific SECTION or division of the local court. For example my state court has an"complex business" division w its own set of specific rules

3) applicable administrative rulings from the specific court

4) look at the judges webpage for any judge-specific preferences or rules (more applicable in federal ct)

5) if applicable (like for how to file or format) call the general clerk or even chambers. The law clerks in fed ct will pick up and generally won't give a shit if u ask a question (they probs won't even remember who u are tomorrow). These sources may not be helpful. Often times they will just be like "look at the rules." But I have been bailed out here before by a helpful clerk or 2

Only after I exhaust these sources do I go to the partner

[baal hadad]

^ this post courtesy of Baal hadad I accidentally annoned

[Catsinthebag]

Like most submit-now-take-time-to-understand-never style posters on these boards, you don't even grasp the statement you're responding to, yet you're responding to it with such misplaced confidence that it would be endearing if... wait no, no, it wouldn't be. It's just a waste of pixels.

If a PhD-pursuing scientist hands in to the department chair a report prepared by an undergrad chem major without checking it for substantive errors, and one exists most of the time the chair will be upset or frustrated with the PhD-pursuer. Just like with OP's situation. Just like "any and almost every job."

Important note: nowhere did I say that being a chemist, working at a law firm, or any and almost every job are the same. Nobody with an IQ or an ounce of intellectual honesty could pull that out of what I said.

This really just confirms my suspicion that you have no idea what you're talking about.

You don't smart so good, do ya?

[Catsinthebag]

OP, question: the substantive mistake. Did a) you not even know the paralegal made the mistake or did b) you think what was written was correct, or c) did you think what was written might be wrong but weren't sure. Sorry if you said this somewhere but I didn't see it.

If your answer is a) then I can see why he'd be upset.

As a 0L, you should probably not post responses to questions that deal with substantive legal-employment issues.

First, the contents of my post reflect the nature of any and almost every job, not just legal ones. Second, I am not a 0L. Thank you.

Sorry. Fixed:

As a 0L current law student who appears to have no experience working as an attorney, you should probably not post responses to questions that deal with substantive legal-employment issues.

And yes, working at a firm is different than "any and almost every job."

Like most submit-now-take-time-to-understand-never style posters on these boards, you don't even grasp the statement you're responding to, yet you're responding to it with such misplaced confidence that it would be endearing if... wait no, no, it wouldn't be. It's just a waste of pixels.

If a PhD-pursuing scientist hands in to the department chair a report prepared by an undergrad chem major without checking it for substantive errors, and one exists most of the time the chair will be upset or frustrated with the PhD-pursuer. Just like with OP's situation. Just like "any and almost every job."

Important note: nowhere did I say that being a chemist, working at a law firm, or any and almost every job are the same. Nobody with an IQ or an ounce of intellectual honesty could pull that out of what I said.

Your example could not be more off. You should really not give advice in this area.

Nah, it was pretty close on, dude!

[Anonymous User]

Everyone makes a mistake here and there, but it's really bad to not look over things other people are doing for you; if you don't know whether the para did it right or not, you need to find someone you can ask to ensure you're looking for the right things, before you turn it in to the partner. If you don't feel there is anyone you can ask for help, that's an issue.

That said: I work at a firm where a few people I've worked for are just toxic for the sake of it (as in, one has actively tried to get multiple people fired so he could hire people to train from the ground-up, because none of us who were here before he was laterally hired can understand how his batty system works). So I would also point out that some people are just always going to be nasty. I would definitely make sure that you're making most people you work for happy, so that if push came to shove, more people would want you to stay in the firm than would want to push you out. The better your relationships with the people who like your work, the easier it will be to get enough work to get yourself taken off the clients of the truly toxic partners. Transitioning away from a partner can be crazy tough, but it was so worth it.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. After sitting down with my practice group leader, I was told I have 3 weeks to explore "possibilities elsewhere" and then I'm out. Any tips on finding recommendations from the firm I'm leaving, and how to parlay experience at the old firm to lateral interviews without saying I was fired? How do references even work at this point? Thank god for that 6 month emergency fund.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. After sitting down with my practice group leader, I was told I have 3 weeks to explore "possibilities elsewhere" and then I'm out. Any tips on finding recommendations from the firm I'm leaving, and how to parlay experience at the old firm to lateral interviews without saying I was fired? How do references even work at this point? Thank god for that 6 month emergency fund.

Shit man I'm sorry. I'm a first year, but I'd reach out to partners I had good work relationships with. If you take emotions out of it, the firm is better off if you land on your feet so the incentive structure should be there for them to help you.

[Dessert Fox]

3 weeks is brutal but how did you ignore all the advice ITT and not start looking ASAP

[Genius]

The partners you work for sound like total dicks. wth. Lawyers in general are shitty people. OP, I say this is a blessing in disguise. I would look elsewhere regardless if that's how you are being treated. Sounds stressful on a daily basis.

[Genius]

OP - 4th year biglaw lit associate here. Unfortunately I cannot tell you whether you will be canned as it is highly firm and economy specific. I will say though, that your mistakes sound like mistakes I have made constantly over the course of my career and your partners sound like a partner who once chewed me out and threatened that I wouldn't last six months - and yet I got my bonus that year and advanced in class anyway. Some partners demand completely unreasonable standards of perfection from associates such that if every associate who got that talk from a partner was out the door there would be nobody left to staff cases. Some partners use associates as punching bags for their own stress. Do good work for the non-insane partners and the other partners will find someone more junior to pick on.

As for the specific issues you face, they are common even among senior associates. The amount of shit you do not know and do not know that you do not know is staggering when you are a general litigator and you are bound to fuck up along the way.

Typos are one of those things that you get better at spotting with time and experience because you learn what to look for quickly. Stuff like consistently formatted brief headings, common BB mistakes, inconsistent formatting within a document, defined terms, two spaces between sentences, periods inside vs outside the parens...this crap is all very visible to senior associates or partners and juniors dont even notice no matter how many times they read the document. Just keep working at it and you will improve with time.

As for court rules you are a biglaw associate. You are not going to have a grasp of court rules because you are hardly ever in court or filing documents. Again, experienced senior associates have not seen enough situations to have a good grasp of local rules for the courts they are typically in. You will screw up in ways that you probably do not even understand because you have no idea what to look for. Do you have a managing clerk's office that is experienced with all the local courts? If so, run everything even remotely procedural by them before confirming with the partner.

Great advice. Not op but thank you.

[RaceJudicata]

3 weeks is brutal but how did you ignore all the advice ITT and not start looking ASAP

You know this happened like 6 months ago, right?

[Anonymous User]

If OP is out there, I hope it worked out for you. I had a very similar situation at my first firm and I feel for you. Classic Harvard partners with unrealistic expectations for a first year in a specific practice area in which there were no other associates at my level. I was making all of the same sloppy mistakes because I felt completely incompetent working with those people. It was horrible. Luckily I lateraled before they pushed me out.

Anyway, updates OP if you are out there!