Okay, I get it: Biglaw sucks. But what else is there? Forum

[Anonymous User]

(First, I should acknowledge that this thread comes from a place of good fortune. I realize the "problem" I'll be describing here is, in fact, a blessing and that many are worse off. I'm only seeking advice, and not intending to complain at all.)

So, I've been thoroughly convinced by these boards and other anecdotes that biglaw is generally unpleasant. I am also lucky enough to have no debt coming off of two federal clerkships (but otherwise straight out of law school). That combination leads me to feel like I should avoid biglaw. But I haven't been able to get a clear sense of what other entry-level, post-clerkship attorney jobs are out there for those interested in litigation. Outside of D.C. (where federal government opportunities would exist), is the entire landscape of such jobs just (1) biglaw; (2) ADA/PD; and (3) random other small law firms, about which there is very little information and which only sporadically hire associates with no experience? I'm not at all sure the ADA/PD route is for me (not to say it's a cinch to get a job like that either), and option (3) seems like a total crapshoot. Is there some other category I'm missing?

Maybe another way to ask this question is: for those of you doing litigation who felt trapped into doing biglaw because of debt, what kinds of litigation opportunities would you have pursued (outside of D.C.) if you hadn't had debt? Assume you had the grades/school combination to have at least a realistic chance at whatever job you could pursue (within reason); what would you have shot for?

[84651846190]

For the vast majority of law students, law school is not worth it and there is nothing better than biglaw (when you consider the pay/pain ratio -- a ton of lower paying law jobs still have shitty (although not AS shitty) hours). Law sucks for everyone except those with tippy top grades from top schools who get to do cool stuff like DOJ, academia, etc.

For you, I would shoot for academia, judgeship, DOJ, etc. See what you like. It sounds like you actually have options.

[Anonymous User]

Not much, which is why going to law school is such a big decision. If I were you, I'd pick up my fat clerkship bonus and coast as much as possible for a few years while looking to jump in house ASAP. With no debt you can really save up, and the 70k or whatever the market double clerkship bonus money is is a lot to leave on the table.

You are missing non-criminal law government jobs, for which you should have a good chance. Also public interest orgs, if that's your thing.

[Anonymous User]

Not much, which is why going to law school is such a big decision. If I were you, I'd pick up my fat clerkship bonus and coast as much as possible for a few years while looking to jump in house ASAP. With no debt you can really save up, and the 70k or whatever the market double clerkship bonus money is is a lot to leave on the table.

You are missing non-criminal law government jobs, for which you should have a good chance. Also public interest orgs, if that's your thing.

OP here. Thanks for the response. You're obviously right about leaving the money on the table, so I can't say I'm at all convinced I'm going to do that. But I think I'd feel better about myself as a person if I had the guts to do it. When you say non-criminal law government jobs...does that basically mean the state AG's office if I'm not living in D.C.?

[Anonymous User]

For the vast majority of law students, law school is not worth it and there is nothing better than biglaw (when you consider the pay/pain ratio -- a ton of lower paying law jobs still have shitty (although not AS shitty) hours). Law sucks for everyone except those with tippy top grades from top schools who get to do cool stuff like DOJ, academia, etc.

For you, I would shoot for academia, judgeship, DOJ, etc. See what you like. It sounds like you actually have options.

Thanks. My fear is that I may have to leave those preferable options on the table unless I move to D.C. (which I think I'm going to be prevented by personal circumstances from doing). Does that seem right?

[Anonymous User]

Not much, which is why going to law school is such a big decision. If I were you, I'd pick up my fat clerkship bonus and coast as much as possible for a few years while looking to jump in house ASAP. With no debt you can really save up, and the 70k or whatever the market double clerkship bonus money is is a lot to leave on the table.

You are missing non-criminal law government jobs, for which you should have a good chance. Also public interest orgs, if that's your thing.

OP here. Thanks for the response. You're obviously right about leaving the money on the table, so I can't say I'm at all convinced I'm going to do that. But I think I'd feel better about myself as a person if I had the guts to do it. When you say non-criminal law government jobs...does that basically mean the state AG's office if I'm not living in D.C.?

Depends on the city - DC is obviously the Mecca for gov jobs but there are regional offices of a lot of depts in a lot of non-DC cities. Of course availability and opportunities are generally more limited than if you would take any old agency in DC.

[Hand]

There are state government jobs no matter where you are, and depending on what state you're in, there may be DOL/EEOC/other-federal-gov't field offices. These offices do all kinds of stuff, that people who work at them can do a better job explaining than I can.

Besides what you list, there are also non-profits that provide legal services to the poor/underserved such as legal aid, if you're not out in the boonies.

[XxSpyKEx]

Depends on the city - DC is obviously the Mecca for gov jobs but there are regional offices of a lot of depts in a lot of non-DC cities. Of course availability and opportunities are generally more limited than if you would take any old agency in DC.

This. There are a lot of fed government opportunities in regional offices (but obviously no where near the opportunities that are in DC). I honestly think federal government is the best possible option if you want a decent paying job with working closer to 40 hour weeks. It depends on the agency and position, but I'd wager to say around 40 hour work weeks (42.5 hours a week if you factor in lunch) is pretty common with most federal government lawyer jobs.

[zot1]

Depends on the city - DC is obviously the Mecca for gov jobs but there are regional offices of a lot of depts in a lot of non-DC cities. Of course availability and opportunities are generally more limited than if you would take any old agency in DC.

This. There are a lot of fed government opportunities in regional offices (but obviously no where near the opportunities that are in DC). I honestly think federal government is the best possible option if you want a decent paying job with working closer to 40 hour weeks. It depends on the agency and position, but I'd wager to say around 40 hour work weeks (42.5 hours a week if you factor in lunch) is pretty common with most federal government lawyer jobs.

I can attest to this. I work generally 40 hours per week.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks for the responses. Is usajobs.com the best/only source for federal government law jobs? If so, it looks like there's only one legal job opening in my market at the moment -- and that one calls for an experienced attorney. I guess I'll keep checking.

[zot1]

Thanks for the responses. Is usajobs.com the best/only source for federal government law jobs? If so, it looks like there's only one legal job opening in my market at the moment -- and that one calls for an experienced attorney. I guess I'll keep checking.

Some agencies post their listings on their own website but most post on usajobs.

The thing about federal government is that you should be willing to relocate. Once you get the job, you can try to transfer back to the desired location within a few years (assuming that your location is big enough to have regional offices).

Since I've been at my job there have been opportunities to transfer to NY, Chicago, and Hawaii. Would I? No way. But the opportunities do happen.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a 0L headed to a T14 this fall and I really want to get a government job when I graduate. Planning to do a clerkship right after I graduate and then try to transition to a fed gig after that, but does anyone have any advice about how to prepare for that kind of gig throughout law school (beyond the obvious get good grades, network, etc). Don't think I would be into litigation, but who knows. I'm basically trying to stay open to any type of fed gig. Anything I can do from 1L onward to help myself out?

[zot1]

1. You can't plan to do a clerkship.

2. You should get a federal government externship as a student.

3. Unless you're doing DOJ, not wanting to do litigation is okay.

4. Take relevant classes for the field you're interested in.

5. Get good grades.

6. Do law review or moot court.

7. As a 3L apply for the government honors program. If you in fact got a clerkship (congrats!), then apply for the honors programs that take clerks.

8. Have triple backup plans. Getting a fed job obviously happens but it's hard and you're competing with tons of smart and equally if not better qualified people.

9. Good luck.

[Anonymous User]

1. You can't plan to do a clerkship.

2. You should get a federal government externship as a student.

3. Unless you're doing DOJ, not wanting to do litigation is okay.

4. Take relevant classes for the field you're interested in.

5. Get good grades.

6. Do law review or moot court.

7. As a 3L apply for the government honors program. If you in fact got a clerkship (congrats!), then apply for the honors programs that take clerks.

8. Have triple backup plans. Getting a fed job obviously happens but it's hard and you're competing with tons of smart and equally if not better qualified people.

9. Good luck.

Any tips on getting fed gov with a few years experience? I feel like they don't even read my resume if I submit through USAjobs since they get a bazillion applications. Am a T-14 honors grad with a few years in biglaw.

[biglawbro]

I'm a 0L headed to a T14 this fall and I really want to get a government job when I graduate. Planning to do a clerkship right after I graduate and then try to transition to a fed gig after that, but does anyone have any advice about how to prepare for that kind of gig throughout law school (beyond the obvious get good grades, network, etc). Don't think I would be into litigation, but who knows. I'm basically trying to stay open to any type of fed gig. Anything I can do from 1L onward to help myself out?

Help yourself by being open to the possibility that (1) your plans may never come to fruition; (2) you may hate them if they do; and (3) you may never truly figure out what you "want" after law school.

The "Fed" question is impossible to answer because your plans are vague. Is there a specific agency or a field you want to work in? Do you have experience in that field? Which T14 are you headed to (your Clerkship and Fed job prospects will vary greatly depending on the answer to this)?

[xael]

1. You can't plan to do a clerkship.

2. You should get a federal government externship as a student.

3. Unless you're doing DOJ, not wanting to do litigation is okay.

4. Take relevant classes for the field you're interested in.

5. Get good grades.

6. Do law review or moot court.

7. As a 3L apply for the government honors program. If you in fact got a clerkship (congrats!), then apply for the honors programs that take clerks.

8. Have triple backup plans. Getting a fed job obviously happens but it's hard and you're competing with tons of smart and equally if not better qualified people.

9. Good luck.

You can apply to gov honors as a 2L and split with a firm (and should if you get it).

[Anonymous User]

Thanks for the replies. To answer some of the questions: I'm going to Cornell; the field I'm most interested is employment/labor, but no, I do not have experience. I've been out of college since 2007 and have been working in a field unrelated to law for about seven years.

I am open to this

being open to the possibility that (1) your plans may never come to fruition; (2) you may hate them if they do; and (3) you may never truly figure out what you "want" after law school.

And I will be acting to put some sort of plan B (and C) in place. It just seems like going the public interest/govt route requires more advance planning than does biglaw (which is what most Cornell grads do), but I understand having such a plan doesn't guarantee anything in the end.

[chem!]

I'm a 0L headed to a T14 this fall and I really want to get a government job when I graduate. Planning to do a clerkship right after I graduate and then try to transition to a fed gig after that, but does anyone have any advice about how to prepare for that kind of gig throughout law school (beyond the obvious get good grades, network, etc). Don't think I would be into litigation, but who knows. I'm basically trying to stay open to any type of fed gig. Anything I can do from 1L onward to help myself out?

Please read the forum rules before posting.

The Ask a Law Student / Graduate forum is the appropriate place for such questions.

[Anonymous User]

Legal aid. Contrary to the beliefs of TLS, it's a legitimate job option, and not just for people too dumb to get biglaw jobs. There are a LOT of people in the US who cannot afford legal services, and a LOT of legal aid agencies. There are direct client services organizations, impact litigation organizations, policy organizations, volunteer lawyer programs, etc. You can get litigation experience- it might not be the big sexy million dollar settlements, but you'll actually be helping real people, not corporations. Especially in the areas of family law, housing, etc., you can be in court most days.
Check out PSJD.org.

[Nebby]

Double clerkship attorney doesn't know what options exist. God help the legal profession

[20160810]

Less preftigious firms can be really chill. I love my job.

[GreenEggs]

Legal aid. Contrary to the beliefs of TLS, it's a legitimate job option, and not just for people too dumb to get biglaw jobs. There are a LOT of people in the US who cannot afford legal services, and a LOT of legal aid agencies. There are direct client services organizations, impact litigation organizations, policy organizations, volunteer lawyer programs, etc. You can get litigation experience- it might not be the big sexy million dollar settlements, but you'll actually be helping real people, not corporations. Especially in the areas of family law, housing, etc., you can be in court most days.
Check out PSJD.org.

Who on TLS says it''s not a legitimate job option?

[GreenEggs]

Less preftigious firms can be really chill. I love my job.

Do you have a fear at a smaller firm/office that if the fewer partners aren't bringing in enough business you're gonna get cut?

[stannis]

There's a lot of firms that are neither big law nor random small law.

There seems to be this mentality that if you're in private practice but not biglaw, you are doing wills or divorces or auto accident ID work.

At least in my city, there are a lot of firms that have 15-80 lawyers, bill partners out at $450 an hour, and have nice offices filled with "prestigious" people.

These kind of firms seem way more desirable than biglaw if you are a litigator, because instead of doc review and research memos and pieces of drafts, you are taking depos and arguing motions pretty quickly. Clients are F500 companies, state and local govs, and large local businesses. Admittedly, it seems more dull on the transactional side--working on a commercial lease for a shopping mall or whatever seems a lot more dull than a big merger.

[RobertGolddust]

For the vast majority of law students, law school is not worth it and there is nothing better than biglaw (when you consider the pay/pain ratio -- a ton of lower paying law jobs still have shitty (although not AS shitty) hours). Law sucks for everyone except those with tippy top grades from top schools who get to do cool stuff like DOJ, academia, etc

I like everything about law school so far except for people like you. First off, you have a misunderstandings about the law school game. Scoring tippy top grades at a respectable school will almost always lands you a 2l SA and a high paying gig after unless you carry yourself with your attitude, that is, you know it all, the worlds against you, and you're entitled to greatness despite the fact that you probably have the courage of a weasel. Why do you feel the need to preach ominous portends about a community you're a part of, and obviously care about? Second off, compared to an ordinary job, a career in the legal profession, especially big law, is better than most of the jobs out there. Even if you can't land big law, I'm sure if you really want to make money it can be done. Moreover, I'm absolutely certain there will be several lawyers coming out of Appalachian School of T4 law who will be far better attorneys than you will ever be. You have the millennial attitude that everyone hates. I'm sorry that big law isn't as great as being a rock star, or athlete, or celebrity, or being some millionaire playboy living off a trust fund. However, you should be thankful that you make way more money than the rest of the world in an elite profession. How you ever graduated from an elite school and landed big law is beyond comprehension. My guess is that you've spent your whole life in the library, and thus, are probably a virgin whose never done anything authentic in his life. Safe space penetrated.

Also you have a better chance of landing a 9th circuit clerkship from T4 then making this happen:

If you want an easier lifestyle, consider tech: https://www.roberthalf.com/sites/defaul ... _guide.pdf

People with Bachelors-only credentials are easily pulling in 100k+ and working chill hours. LOL @ JD morons. WTF were we thinking?