Seeking Career Advice Forum

[Li8igous]

Hello, I need some career wisdom, please.

I’m a 2L. I came to law school with the outlook that I wanted to be a criminal defense attorney – don’t judge. It was all I wanted to do. As a 2L I’ve become less and less interested in that field because I think, well, I want to advance my career into different areas of law and I fear criminal defense will limit my career options in the future.

Is criminal law really the dead end career some people make it out to be? If I pursue a masters in finance while practicing criminal defense will that open doors into corporate law or white collar defense?

Here’s what I’m mulling as summer and career options.

1) Accept Public defender offer in a large and highly coveted market, parlay that into a full time job for five years, and in the meantime pursue a Masters degree in finance. Then I’ll transition into corporate law. Then I’ll get into white-collar defense. Or,

2) continue to clerk at the District Court, while part-time intern for a state agency, primarily commercial liability issues. Graduate and clerk for the District Court for a year or two, then get into commercial litigation.

Any thoughts?

Best,
LI8

[Anonymous User]

Hello, I need some career wisdom, please.

I’m a 2L. I came to law school with the outlook that I wanted to be a criminal defense attorney – don’t judge. It was all I wanted to do. As a 2L I’ve become less and less interested in that field because I think, well, I want to advance my career into different areas of law and I fear criminal defense will limit my career options in the future.

Is criminal law really the dead end career some people make it out to be? If I pursue a masters in finance while practicing criminal defense will that open doors into corporate law or white collar defense?

Here’s what I’m mulling as summer and career options.

1) Accept Public defender offer in a large and highly coveted market, parlay that into a full time job for five years, and in the meantime pursue a Masters degree in finance. Then I’ll transition into corporate law. Then I’ll get into white-collar defense. Or,

2) continue to clerk at the District Court, while part-time intern for a state agency, primarily commercial liability issues. Graduate and clerk for the District Court for a year or two, then get into commercial litigation.

Any thoughts?

Best,
LI8

what's your school ranking? Very hard to do corporate work outside of T14 (I have many friends who have tried). I'm assuming by "corporate" work, your using the standard definition (which amounts to "transactional" work).

As for commercial litigation/white collar defense, if we're talking BigLaw there aren't many public sector positions other than postgraduate federal clerkships and AUSA roles that feed into those practice areas. Obviously these clerkships and AUSA positions are pretty friggin competitive nowadays. If we're talking SmallLaw, then anything goes I guess

A masters of finance seems like a huge waste of time and money, and I don't think BigLaw employers would respect it too much (again, who knows with small law). I know someone tried to pitch their masters of finance at my firm during OCI and honestly I think it just confused the hiring partner.

TL;DR - If you want to work in those fields in BigLaw, there ain't many shortcuts other than 2L OCI + great grades. SmallLaw is way more diverse, so it would probably be harder to get an answer. Masters of Finance does seem like a waste of time tho

ETA: clarity purposes

[BigZuck]

Yeah I'm not sure how you're defining "criminal defense" and "corporate law" here. What do you mean?

If you want to do white collar criminal defense then you're almost certainly going to have to work at a big firm. Normally when people say "criminal defense" they mean defending normal people who are charged with crimes, like DUIs and stuff.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I don't think public defender--> corporate law is a path that really works, master's in finance or not; you're combining two completely different things. Also corporate to white collar defense seems difficult.

To do white collar criminal defense you are likely going to need to start in a big law firm, and/or get a position prosecuting white collar law at a USAO and then move into a firm. However, you're not going to get a USAO white collar position straight out of school.

(My sense is that big law firms are only interested in former prosecutors for white collar positions because white collar defendants aren't generally going to use a public defender, because they have too much money, so defense experience isn't actually that helpful.)

I do think that if you go into criminal law out of graduation, you are going to be setting yourself on a criminal law track (generally speaking - I'm sure some people have jumped back and forth, but it's not going to be easy/common.)

If you want to get into anything involving corporate law, clerking for a federal district court then going to a big law firm is a possibility. But it's not clear to me how you know you could get a clerkship simply because you're interning there now (you're an intern, not a clerk). A lot of judges have hired for 2017 already.

[Li8igous]

Yeah I'm not sure how you're defining "criminal defense" and "corporate law" here. What do you mean?

If you want to do white collar criminal defense then you're almost certainly going to have to work at a big firm. Normally when people say "criminal defense" they mean defending normal people who are charged with crimes, like DUIs and stuff.

Hi, thanks for the response.

To clarify, I'm ok with beginning my career as a public defender, but eventually I'd like to get into white collar defense. I wonder if having a masters in finance will add value for even mid size firms that specialize in white collar crime. I fear if I pursue PD now it will pigeon hole my career. I enjoy even the illusion of not having a ceiling, and I fear with PD the ceiling is very real. Do you think so?

[Anonymous User]

I don't think public defender--> corporate law is a path that really works, master's in finance or not; you're combining two completely different things. Also corporate to white collar defense seems difficult.

To do white collar criminal defense you are likely going to need to start in a big law firm, and/or get a position prosecuting white collar law at a USAO and then move into a firm. However, you're not going to get a USAO white collar position straight out of school.

(My sense is that big law firms are only interested in former prosecutors for white collar positions because white collar defendants aren't generally going to use a public defender, because they have too much money, so defense experience isn't actually that helpful.)

I do think that if you go into criminal law out of graduation, you are going to be setting yourself on a criminal law track (generally speaking - I'm sure some people have jumped back and forth, but it's not going to be easy/common.)

If you want to get into anything involving corporate law, clerking for a federal district court then going to a big law firm is a possibility. But it's not clear to me how you know you could get a clerkship simply because you're interning there now (you're an intern, not a clerk). A lot of judges have hired for 2017 already.

Thank you, and you're right, I know nothing of certainty about my future. I'm assuming with hard work and perseverance I'll secure a clerkship after graduation. My grades are solid and I will have good intern/work experience at graduation. I come from a mid-tier law school.

Do you know of any scenario where pursuing a masters in finance, or any other degree after law school is helpful?

Thanks for your time, I really appreciate it.

[Anonymous User]

Hello, I need some career wisdom, please.

I’m a 2L. I came to law school with the outlook that I wanted to be a criminal defense attorney – don’t judge. It was all I wanted to do. As a 2L I’ve become less and less interested in that field because I think, well, I want to advance my career into different areas of law and I fear criminal defense will limit my career options in the future.

Is criminal law really the dead end career some people make it out to be? If I pursue a masters in finance while practicing criminal defense will that open doors into corporate law or white collar defense?

Here’s what I’m mulling as summer and career options.

1) Accept Public defender offer in a large and highly coveted market, parlay that into a full time job for five years, and in the meantime pursue a Masters degree in finance. Then I’ll transition into corporate law. Then I’ll get into white-collar defense. Or,

2) continue to clerk at the District Court, while part-time intern for a state agency, primarily commercial liability issues. Graduate and clerk for the District Court for a year or two, then get into commercial litigation.

Any thoughts?

Best,
LI8

what's your school ranking? Very hard to do corporate work outside of T14 (I have many friends who have tried). I'm assuming by "corporate" work, your using the standard definition (which amounts to "transactional" work).

As for commercial litigation/white collar defense, if we're talking BigLaw there aren't many public sector positions other than postgraduate federal clerkships and AUSA roles that feed into those practice areas. Obviously these clerkships and AUSA positions are pretty friggin competitive nowadays. If we're talking SmallLaw, then anything goes I guess

A masters of finance seems like a huge waste of time and money, and I don't think BigLaw employers would respect it too much (again, who knows with small law). I know someone tried to pitch their masters of finance at my firm during OCI and honestly I think it just confused the hiring partner.

TL;DR - If you want to work in those fields in BigLaw, there ain't many shortcuts other than 2L OCI + great grades. SmallLaw is way more diverse, so it would probably be harder to get an answer. Masters of Finance does seem like a waste of time tho

ETA: clarity purposes

Mid-tier law school. Long history, and reputable in the state, surrounded by behemoth states with fancy people who use fancy acronyms and fancy degrees.

I have solid grades and great work/intern experience. Are there any degrees after law school I can consider for position into big law? Or, what would getting into big law in an untraditional approach look like? Can we get creative? How creative can we get?

I really appreciate your time, thank you for the response.

[Anonymous User]

Yeah I'm not sure how you're defining "criminal defense" and "corporate law" here. What do you mean?

If you want to do white collar criminal defense then you're almost certainly going to have to work at a big firm. Normally when people say "criminal defense" they mean defending normal people who are charged with crimes, like DUIs and stuff.

Hi, thanks for the response.

To clarify, I'm ok with beginning my career as a public defender, but eventually I'd like to get into white collar defense. I wonder if having a masters in finance will add value for even mid size firms that specialize in white collar crime. I fear if I pursue PD now it will pigeon hole my career. I enjoy even the illusion of not having a ceiling, and I fear with PD the ceiling is very real. Do you think so?

First anon here.

I don't think this plan makes a lot of sense. So from what I understand you're interested in mid-sized firms that specialize in financial white collar crime. That's incredibly specific, and the only firms I know that fit the bill - Kobre & Kim and Morvillo, I guess - are a) in New York, b) not hiring often, and c) pretty selective. Nearly every market has smaller firms that do white-collar defense, but they are usually firms that do general criminal defense and fold in *some* white collar work. You're not going to find a smaller firm that can sustain itself on only financial white-collar matters outside of NYC and other major markets. So again, its tough to see how getting one of the more expensive master's degrees would be justified (especially if you're not planning on going into finance)

[A. Nony Mouse]

Thank you, and you're right, I know nothing of certainty about my future. I'm assuming with hard work and perseverance I'll secure a clerkship after graduation. My grades are solid and I will have good intern/work experience at graduation. I come from a mid-tier law school.

Do you know of any scenario where pursuing a masters in finance, or any other degree after law school is helpful?

Thanks for your time, I really appreciate it.

I'm not sure you understand how federal clerkship hiring works. Do you realize you should be applying now? Or have already applied? I don't think you can assume that a mid-tier school with solid grades is going to get you a clerkship, depending on what you mean by mid-tier (which tier?) and solid.

I can't think of any way in which a masters in finance after law school would help you get a legal job. An LLM in tax can help you get a tax job. I don't think other advanced degrees are going to be helpful except maybe in very unusual niche cases on the margins.

Edited to add: at some point everyone creates limits/closes doors for themselves. Once you start on a particular path, you're going to close off other paths. If you started in biglaw, you'd find it pretty hard to turn around and go into criminal defense. It's just the way the world works - getting experience in one area means not getting experience in another, and making you look more qualified for some jobs than others.

People do move around, more than I think TLS realizes sometimes. But not wanting to close off any future paths could end up simply paralyzing you from doing anything.

I guess I'm also not sure whether you really want to leave doors open or are just regretting passing up any shot at biglaw and are now trying to get back into it. Those aren't exactly the same things.

[Anonymous User]

Hello, I need some career wisdom, please.

I’m a 2L. I came to law school with the outlook that I wanted to be a criminal defense attorney – don’t judge. It was all I wanted to do. As a 2L I’ve become less and less interested in that field because I think, well, I want to advance my career into different areas of law and I fear criminal defense will limit my career options in the future.

Is criminal law really the dead end career some people make it out to be? If I pursue a masters in finance while practicing criminal defense will that open doors into corporate law or white collar defense?

Here’s what I’m mulling as summer and career options.

1) Accept Public defender offer in a large and highly coveted market, parlay that into a full time job for five years, and in the meantime pursue a Masters degree in finance. Then I’ll transition into corporate law. Then I’ll get into white-collar defense. Or,

2) continue to clerk at the District Court, while part-time intern for a state agency, primarily commercial liability issues. Graduate and clerk for the District Court for a year or two, then get into commercial litigation.

Any thoughts?

Best,
LI8

what's your school ranking? Very hard to do corporate work outside of T14 (I have many friends who have tried). I'm assuming by "corporate" work, your using the standard definition (which amounts to "transactional" work).

As for commercial litigation/white collar defense, if we're talking BigLaw there aren't many public sector positions other than postgraduate federal clerkships and AUSA roles that feed into those practice areas. Obviously these clerkships and AUSA positions are pretty friggin competitive nowadays. If we're talking SmallLaw, then anything goes I guess

A masters of finance seems like a huge waste of time and money, and I don't think BigLaw employers would respect it too much (again, who knows with small law). I know someone tried to pitch their masters of finance at my firm during OCI and honestly I think it just confused the hiring partner.

TL;DR - If you want to work in those fields in BigLaw, there ain't many shortcuts other than 2L OCI + great grades. SmallLaw is way more diverse, so it would probably be harder to get an answer. Masters of Finance does seem like a waste of time tho

ETA: clarity purposes

Mid-tier law school. Long history, and reputable in the state, surrounded by behemoth states with fancy people who use fancy acronyms and fancy degrees.

I have solid grades and great work/intern experience. Are there any degrees after law school I can consider for position into big law? Or, what would getting into big law in an untraditional approach look like? Can we get creative? How creative can we get?

I really appreciate your time, thank you for the response.

First anon again.

You can get creative, but most BigLaw firms won't really care. Once 1L passes and you go through OCI, it's pretty hard to get BigLaw without a federal clerkship/AUSA. The (vast?) majority of BigLaw entry level hiring is done through 2L OCI. At my OCI, I once met a V15 partner from a mid-tier law school who got BigLaw after getting an MBA...at Harvard. So maybe MBA's work. I guess you can try to get a Masters in Engineering/Computer Science/Biology and then go into patent law? Never really heard of that, but maybe it's remotely possible

Edit: As for tax LLM's, you can go that route, but the general wisdom is that if you couldn't biglaw before the LLM (because you're not median at a T14, or don't have amazing grades from a non-T14), then you won't be getting biglaw after the LLM

[BigZuck]

Big law/federal clerkships are almost certainly closed off to you, likely forever. That's just how the hiring for those things work, mid-tier schools and solid grades don't get those jobs.

That doesn't mean you can't be a criminal defense attorney. If that's something you want to do then I'd probably try to get a job at a prosecutor's office straight out of law school and then pivot to criminal defense after a few years. It likely won't be white collar stuff, like I said it will be normal people with normal crimes. It's a long shot but I suppose if you became transcendently great at that then you might be able to do some white collar stuff at some point:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_DeGuerin

Why exactly are you interested in white collar work?

And I agree with everyone else, I don't see more school providing any value to you.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Going back to some stuff from the OP - of course criminal law isn't a dead end career. It's always necessary and there are tons of people who spend their entire careers doing criminal law. There are lots of interesting things you can do in criminal law. So I guess I'm not sure why the question is framed the way it is. It's totally not a dead end - it's just that it will lead you to a career in criminal law, not in corporate law.

[Anonymous User]

Thank you, I really appreciate the feedback from everyone here. You guys are awesome! I've decided to pursue a different path for now, something other than criminal law. Although I came to law school with the idea of practicing criminal defense, I realize now that my heart is elsewhere. Thank you all for your time.

Li8