Kirkland Bonuses? Forum

[Anonymous User]

The year for bonus purposes just ended. My annualized hours are just a smidge over 1900. I know that all first years are expected to get a 3 (class rating) in review, so will that + 1900 be enough for a market bonus? Some of the posts ITT are helpful but curious if others have been around here.

Are you a first year? Yes, that’s likely enough. For context, as a first year, I was around your billable hours and got 1.3x.

[anonbanker]

Junior with a 3 rating and about 2300 hours. I got exactly 1.5x Cravath.

For more context, as a first and second year its literally impossible to get anything better than a 3, so hours seem to be the only real factor. Third years can start getting 2s, and bonuses seem to be more and more based on rating after that.

For the poster concerned about below market bonuses, getting worse than a 3 (4 or 5) means you are close to being fired. We only have annual reviews, but below a 3 triggers either immediate firing or another review (not sure what the time frame is, but basically get x amount of time to fix the issue). From my experience, this is very rare. As another poster said, I'm actually a bit surprised they get a bonus at all.

Thanks for the response. Makes a lot of sense. I'll make my best effort not to totally suck at my job then.

As a K&E midlevel who has first years working for me, the easiest way for me to not throw you under the bus to the nonshare partner is to actually do what I tell you.

If I ask you to send an email to someone, and that email can be written in 45 seconds or less, I expect to see that email within 30 minutes of our conversation unless you have a good reason for not doing it (you got dragged into a partner's office or something).

I'm not sure what you'd have to do to get a 4 rating. Probably try to keep working at the firm after fucking up multiple deals and nobody's giving you work but you still show up, not having gotten the hint that if you haven't billed in 6 weeks there's a reason.

*lords it over other junior lawyers. is little bitch to banker 3 months out of MBA*

[MillllerTime]

The year for bonus purposes just ended. My annualized hours are just a smidge over 1900. I know that all first years are expected to get a 3 (class rating) in review, so will that + 1900 be enough for a market bonus? Some of the posts ITT are helpful but curious if others have been around here.

100% yes. As a 1st / 2nd year, you will get a 3 rating barring anything egregious and thus you will get a market (likely 1.25x) bonus. I know this holds true for people as low as 1400 hours (and said person is still at the firm several years later).

Also, 1900 (even prorated) is pretty solid for a first year. Most I know were under that - nobody expects first years to be going crazy on hours as it's just too hard to get ramped up and understand how to stay consistently busy.

[Anonymous User]

The year for bonus purposes just ended. My annualized hours are just a smidge over 1900. I know that all first years are expected to get a 3 (class rating) in review, so will that + 1900 be enough for a market bonus? Some of the posts ITT are helpful but curious if others have been around here.

Are you a first year? Yes, that’s likely enough. For context, as a first year, I was around your billable hours and got 1.3x.

Would your guess change for a 1st year vs a lateral/post-clerkship starter who is also annualizing hours but isn’t a 1st year?

[MillllerTime]

The year for bonus purposes just ended. My annualized hours are just a smidge over 1900. I know that all first years are expected to get a 3 (class rating) in review, so will that + 1900 be enough for a market bonus? Some of the posts ITT are helpful but curious if others have been around here.

Are you a first year? Yes, that’s likely enough. For context, as a first year, I was around your billable hours and got 1.3x.

Would your guess change for a 1st year vs a lateral/post-clerkship starter who is also annualizing hours but isn’t a 1st year?

You will get a bonus (though not sure if prorated for a partial year as that's typically negotiated for laterals). People seem to overestimate how many people get a 4 rating and thus no bonus. That is the equivalent of telling someone hey time to start looking for another job - it would take something egregious to receive a 4 in your first year at the firm.

[jdoe12345]

Kirkland bonuses are paid in Dec (sometime between Dec 20 - Dec 31).

First years get a signing bonus, but no stub bonus. Regardless of what the billing year is, your full first year bonus is consistent with the fact that everybody in your class is starting at the same time, so to the extent there is some hours issue because you actually didn't spend a full billable year by that point, it'll be fine because everybody in your class will experience it and it'll normalize out. Kirkland pays above-market bonuses to the vast majority of associates, including first years.

And there's my point: everything will be fine. Why do you care, why are you focusing on these little minutia? Kirkland pays REALLY well, and it gets even better as you get more senior.

Other questions: AFAIK, most summers get their own offices. Every now and again a renovation might cause a shortage of offices, but there are usually creative solutions used to ensure folks still get their own office, even summers.

K&E alum here. I question whether K&E pays "REALLY" well for a few reasons.

1. The multiples are that of the Cravath bonus, not the total comp. For most class years, your bonus will be between 20-24% of your overall comp. So an associate who has worked REALLY REALLY hard and receives 1.5x bonus will probably receive an extra 10%-12.5% of comp compared to a Cravath-scale associate who works moderately hard.

2. At the bonus level you are in a very high tax bracket (unless you live in TX). Therefore, you can lop off about 40% of the difference between a K&E bonus and a Cravath bonus. Ex. if you received 40% over market as a 3rd year ($70k vs $50k) the after-tax difference would be about $12k. And to earn that extra $12k you would have had to work pretty damn hard.

3. In my experience, a lot of the higher multiples actually go to junior associates. A second year associate who earns 1.5x will earn an extra $12.5k pre-tax. A fourth year associate who gets 1.3x will earn an extra $19.5k pre-tax. So it's not like saying that attorneys earn "30-40% above market on average" tells the whole story. The delta between a K&E associate and a Cravath associate does not increase as much as most people think (with a few exceptions for crazy high billers).

I'm not throwing shade at K&E. I was privileged to have worked with some exceptionally smart people on some very sophisticated transactions. I just don't think that from a pure mathematical standpoint you can look at the figures and assume that a K&E associates lives in a penthouse and drives a Tesla while a Cravath-scale associate is renting a bedroom with a 2005 Honda Civic. K&E bonuses are nice, but for most associates it's a few months of rent, student loans, or car payments.

[dabigchina]

Sounds like It's like any biglaw firm. They pay you well, but you'll earn every extra penny of it and you won't be rich.

[Anonymous User]

Junior associate with a 3 rating and between 2700-2800 hours. 1.9x Cravath.

[dlutfy]

Junior associate with a 3 rating and between 2700-2800 hours. 1.9x Cravath.

So you worked potentially 800 more hours than a normal firm for an extra 15k.

$18.75 an hour. Wowzers.

[dyemond]

Junior associate with a 3 rating and between 2700-2800 hours. 1.9x Cravath.

They're not out yet.

[Anonymous User]

I think we all understand that if you break down the extra juice provided by K&E, it's not exactly a great deal on an hourly basis. But, for many of us, we had to work those hours regardless and couldn't exactly turn down work. So, to get paid extra money, instead of working for free, is still better.

[Anonymous User]

Junior associate with a 3 rating and between 2700-2800 hours. 1.9x Cravath.

They're not out yet.

I was talking about my bonus for last year.

Junior associate with a 3 rating and between 2700-2800 hours. 1.9x Cravath.

So you worked potentially 800 more hours than a normal firm for an extra 15k.

$18.75 an hour. Wowzers.

I actually did the math, comes out to approx. $28.13/hour (assuming the avg. associate only work 2000 hours/year and receives Cravath bonus). The firm actually makes it very clear that it is NOT worth it to bill more hours just to get a higher bonus. But as another poster rightly pointed out, there are some years when your matters are just really busy and you don't have much control over your total annual hours. This is true at Kirkland, and it is true at other firms too. The only difference is at Kirkland, you get extra compensation that you would not otherwise see during these busy years.

[Anonymous User]

I couldn’t agree more with the above anon. Was previously in a very busy corporate group at a lockstep V5 in NYC, and now at Kirkland/Latham. A majority of the midlevels/seniors in my group at my prior firm were billing between 2400-2800 hours and got paid the market bonus. I’ll take same lifestyle + more pay any day of the week.

We’re all naturally risk averse, so I can see how someone might take a guaranteed market bonus over having to worry about making hours in a downturn.

[Anonymous User]

Another latham anon here: our bonus isn't anywhere near kirkland's. high billers are capped at 1.25x cravath iirc. Nobody is making 1.9x cravath like the anon above.

[Anonymous User]

As a Kirkland associate, folks always talk about the above market bonuses but to me the underrated aspect of our bonus system is that literally everyone who doesn’t get a terrible review gets at least market, even if their hours are awful. Yeah Skadden pays market bonuses, but if 50% of their New York first years miss the target by design, does that really count?

[jdoe12345]

As a Kirkland associate, folks always talk about the above market bonuses but to me the underrated aspect of our bonus system is that literally everyone who doesn’t get a terrible review gets at least market, even if their hours are awful. Yeah Skadden pays market bonuses, but if 50% of their New York first years miss the target by design, does that really count?

Totally agree. If you’re billing 1800 and getting a market bonus, in my book you’re winning. At that point though you have to balance the stress of worrying about job security, which isn’t the greatest feeling.

[jdoe12345]

I couldn’t agree more with the above anon. Was previously in a very busy corporate group at a lockstep V5 in NYC, and now at Kirkland/Latham. A majority of the midlevels/seniors in my group at my prior firm were billing between 2400-2800 hours and got paid the market bonus. I’ll take same lifestyle + more pay any day of the week.

We’re all naturally risk averse, so I can see how someone might take a guaranteed market bonus over having to worry about making hours in a downturn.

I lateraled to an EC/VC practice and honestly could not recommend it more. PPP is lower (but who really gives a shit as an associate?) but my comp is largely the same for the hours billed. The biggest differences are (1) better/more lucrative in-house gigs and (2) the hours are spread out in a more humane manner (fewer all-nighters, most things can be done the next day).

[LBJ's Hair]

Junior associate with a 3 rating and between 2700-2800 hours. 1.9x Cravath.

They're not out yet.

I was talking about my bonus for last year.

Junior associate with a 3 rating and between 2700-2800 hours. 1.9x Cravath.

So you worked potentially 800 more hours than a normal firm for an extra 15k.

$18.75 an hour. Wowzers.

I actually did the math, comes out to approx. $28.13/hour (assuming the avg. associate only work 2000 hours/year and receives Cravath bonus). The firm actually makes it very clear that it is NOT worth it to bill more hours just to get a higher bonus. But as another poster rightly pointed out, there are some years when your matters are just really busy and you don't have much control over your total annual hours. This is true at Kirkland, and it is true at other firms too. The only difference is at Kirkland, you get extra compensation that you would not otherwise see during these busy years.

I didn't take OP's point as it being "bad," rather that it's that it's a pretty insignificant amount of money, so the bonus shouldn't really factor into your decisionmaking. Whether that's working extra hours for $$$, choosing between K&E/other firms, etc

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

I think we all understand that if you break down the extra juice provided by K&E, it's not exactly a great deal on an hourly basis. But, for many of us, we had to work those hours regardless and couldn't exactly turn down work. So, to get paid extra money, instead of working for free, is still better.

LOL yeah you definitely had to bill 2700; no other non-sweatshop options available!

Although maybe the kind of person who would ever, in their sick mind, think they *had* to bill 2700 was bound to pick Kirkland at OCI. It’s very tragic, in a Greek sort of way.

[rahulg91]

I think we all understand that if you break down the extra juice provided by K&E, it's not exactly a great deal on an hourly basis. But, for many of us, we had to work those hours regardless and couldn't exactly turn down work. So, to get paid extra money, instead of working for free, is still better.

LOL yeah you definitely had to bill 2700; no other non-sweatshop options available!

Although maybe the kind of person who would ever, in their sick mind, think they *had* to bill 2700 was bound to pick Kirkland at OCI. It’s very tragic, in a Greek sort of way.

Maybe I’m mixing up my gaping assholes, but aren’t you the same douche who worked at Wachtell?

No one is saying that there aren’t non-sweatshop options. Plenty of firms have lower billable expectations, plenty of firms also just generally have less work, people are free to go to them. This thread is about people getting a realistic look at KE comp and associated hours.

Don’t really understand the heckling.

[BlackAndOrange84]

I think we all understand that if you break down the extra juice provided by K&E, it's not exactly a great deal on an hourly basis. But, for many of us, we had to work those hours regardless and couldn't exactly turn down work. So, to get paid extra money, instead of working for free, is still better.

LOL yeah you definitely had to bill 2700; no other non-sweatshop options available!

Although maybe the kind of person who would ever, in their sick mind, think they *had* to bill 2700 was bound to pick Kirkland at OCI. It’s very tragic, in a Greek sort of way.

Maybe I’m mixing up my gaping assholes, but aren’t you the same douche who worked at Wachtell?

No one is saying that there aren’t non-sweatshop options. Plenty of firms have lower billable expectations, plenty of firms also just generally have less work, people are free to go to them. This thread is about people getting a realistic look at KE comp and associated hours.

Don’t really understand the heckling.

Apples to oranges—at least Wachtell compensation is truly market shattering, not to speak of the preftige.

Joking aside, not sure I get the heckling either. There are plenty of firms where at least some associates bill well-above 2000, there's no guarantee you wont' be one of those associates (short of refusing work and likely cutting short your stint in Biglaw, unless you're a well established senior, in which case you're just reducing your already low chances of making partner), and getting at least some additional comp for that is not undesirable.

[impactplayer]

I think we all understand that if you break down the extra juice provided by K&E, it's not exactly a great deal on an hourly basis. But, for many of us, we had to work those hours regardless and couldn't exactly turn down work. So, to get paid extra money, instead of working for free, is still better.

LOL yeah you definitely had to bill 2700; no other non-sweatshop options available!

Although maybe the kind of person who would ever, in their sick mind, think they *had* to bill 2700 was bound to pick Kirkland at OCI. It’s very tragic, in a Greek sort of way.

Lol, it's super tragic to now work 1800 hours a year and make $600k. Sorry you burned out before making anything of yourself, bro.

Mod Note: User impactplayer outed for Anon abuse.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

I think we all understand that if you break down the extra juice provided by K&E, it's not exactly a great deal on an hourly basis. But, for many of us, we had to work those hours regardless and couldn't exactly turn down work. So, to get paid extra money, instead of working for free, is still better.

LOL yeah you definitely had to bill 2700; no other non-sweatshop options available!

Although maybe the kind of person who would ever, in their sick mind, think they *had* to bill 2700 was bound to pick Kirkland at OCI. It’s very tragic, in a Greek sort of way.

Maybe I’m mixing up my gaping assholes, but aren’t you the same douche who worked at Wachtell?

No one is saying that there aren’t non-sweatshop options. Plenty of firms have lower billable expectations, plenty of firms also just generally have less work, people are free to go to them. This thread is about people getting a realistic look at KE comp and associated hours.

Don’t really understand the heckling.

Nope, not even close to Wachtell, but at least there you’d be getting real money for wrecking your life.

You have every right to have your Kirkland thread, but I have every right to find it hilarious when your extra efforts turn out to be librarian-level hourly wages and you act like you “have to” do them instead of going to any number of places where you’re far less likely to bill 2700.

[impactplayer]

I think we all understand that if you break down the extra juice provided by K&E, it's not exactly a great deal on an hourly basis. But, for many of us, we had to work those hours regardless and couldn't exactly turn down work. So, to get paid extra money, instead of working for free, is still better.

LOL yeah you definitely had to bill 2700; no other non-sweatshop options available!

Although maybe the kind of person who would ever, in their sick mind, think they *had* to bill 2700 was bound to pick Kirkland at OCI. It’s very tragic, in a Greek sort of way.

Maybe I’m mixing up my gaping assholes, but aren’t you the same douche who worked at Wachtell?

No one is saying that there aren’t non-sweatshop options. Plenty of firms have lower billable expectations, plenty of firms also just generally have less work, people are free to go to them. This thread is about people getting a realistic look at KE comp and associated hours.

Don’t really understand the heckling.

Nope, not even close to Wachtell, but at least there you’d be getting real money for wrecking your life.

You have every right to have your Kirkland thread, but I have every right to find it hilarious when your extra efforts turn out to be librarian-level hourly wages and you act like you “have to” do them instead of going to any number of places where you’re far less likely to bill 2700.

Judging by your profile, you're a third year who went to UVA. No one gives a shit about what you think so stop chiming in on the Kirkland thread. You're a caricature of a bitter junior associate with your Patrick Bateman profile picture. Go finish your due diligence report.

[Yugihoe]

I think we all understand that if you break down the extra juice provided by K&E, it's not exactly a great deal on an hourly basis. But, for many of us, we had to work those hours regardless and couldn't exactly turn down work. So, to get paid extra money, instead of working for free, is still better.

LOL yeah you definitely had to bill 2700; no other non-sweatshop options available!

Although maybe the kind of person who would ever, in their sick mind, think they *had* to bill 2700 was bound to pick Kirkland at OCI. It’s very tragic, in a Greek sort of way.

Maybe I’m mixing up my gaping assholes, but aren’t you the same douche who worked at Wachtell?

No one is saying that there aren’t non-sweatshop options. Plenty of firms have lower billable expectations, plenty of firms also just generally have less work, people are free to go to them. This thread is about people getting a realistic look at KE comp and associated hours.

Don’t really understand the heckling.

Nope, not even close to Wachtell, but at least there you’d be getting real money for wrecking your life.

You have every right to have your Kirkland thread, but I have every right to find it hilarious when your extra efforts turn out to be librarian-level hourly wages and you act like you “have to” do them instead of going to any number of places where you’re far less likely to bill 2700.

Judging by your profile, you're a third year who went to UVA. No one gives a shit about what you think so stop chiming in on the Kirkland thread. You're a caricature of a bitter junior associate with your Patrick Bateman profile picture. Go finish your due diligence report.

LMAO *sits back and watches the roast*

This would be funnier coming from someone who wasn't billing 2700 hours though to be honest.