Non-U.S citizen in legal markets other than NYC? Forum

[Anonymous User]

I've heard a lot of ppl talking about NYC being the only market that international students are likely to get into. And I am wondering if that's true even if I go to a T14 with its regional focus in another major market. For example, If I go to Berk, will I be in a disadvantaged position hunting job in California? Or if I go to UChi/Northwestern, would it be very difficult for me to crack into the Chicago market?

I am asking about this because I am not a fan of NYC and am thinking about going to a T14 in other areas but I really want to make sure that employment with sponsorship is not that hard in other major cities. Stories & experience appreciated.

[ballouttacontrol]

your chances at CA biglaw from NU will be slim

[Anonymous User]

your chances at CA biglaw from NU will be slim

Sorry for the confusion. I mean chances at Chicago BL from NU or chances at Cal BL from Berk as a non-U.S. citizen. I was told that internationals should prefer Cornell over all other T8-T14 schools cuz NYC is the only market that opens to us. As I would rather work in Chicago, i am curious if that's true and want to learn about the chance of landing a job in Chicago from NU/UChi as an international.

[Anonymous User]

non-US citizen working at a big firm in a non-NYC major market here.

NYC just seems to be an easier market for international students to target. NYC has more transactional openings and never brothers to ask why NYC, whereas LA and Chi firms want to hear a convincing story as to why you, a foreigner who prob has no family ties or even experience living there (besides 1 year in law school till OCI), can stay with them in the a long term.

The location of your school will give you an advantage of landing a job in that city simply because there are more alumni and they are geographically closer for you to network, but I have also seen other non-US citizens got into biglaws in DC/Chicago, and they didn't go to the T14s in DC/Chicago.

[despina]

I've posted along these lines in several other threads so I'll quote here just in case you or other international students aren't aware:

The major problem that international law students have: a law degree, generally, is NOT a path to a green card (permanent residence) nor a path to citizenship. You can work for up to 6 years on an H-1B visa, but:
1. The firm has to be willing to pay for the costs associated with the visa, which isn't cheap. Big firms generally do this, but nonprofits, small firms, etc can't.
2. There is an annual cap for new H-1B visas, and every year thousands of otherwise eligible people just don't get a visa because they lose "the lottery," which typically happens in early April. Even if your firm is willing to sponsor you, and submits the application, you just might not get the visa.
3. Even if you do get the H-1B visa, it's limited to 6 years unless your company files a green card application for you. If you ever want to change jobs, your new company has to be willing to file a new petition for you (and pay the associated costs). If you lose your job, you lose your lawful status in the US. The 6 year limit applies to you, not to the job -- so you can't "start over" by switching jobs.
4. In most cases, to sponsor an employee for a green card, the employer has to go through the motions of recruiting for the employee's job, and show that there are NO Americans able and willing to do that job, at the prevailing wage. This just isn't possible for most lawyers unless you have a VERY rare specialty (usually NOT just a language ability). This means that generally, it is VERY DIFFICULT to get an employment-based green card for a lawyer. If you happen to be the special snowflake who qualifies, the process still takes several years, or decades if you're from China or India.
5. Therefore, an international student who wants to live permanently in the US as a lawyer better have another pathway to permanent residence -- generally, through marriage or another family connection. Some international students have a qualifying relative to sponsor them, but many don't.

(general disclaimer that this is just general info and NOT legal advice; also keep in mind that Canadians and Mexicans are in a slightly better position because they can get a TN visa)

[cheaptilts]

your visa status will come into play. V10 in NYC promised to do the whole h1b process thing for one of my friends up to three times or something like that I think

One of the premier DC biglaw firms basically refused to make any guarantees about what happens if my friend struck out of the h1b process the first go around. worth inquiring about. I'd guess that the NYC firms/ NYC offices are more likely to do that but that may be pure conjecture

[Anonymous User]

your visa status will come into play. V10 in NYC promised to do the whole h1b process thing for one of my friends up to three times or something like that I think

One of the premier DC biglaw firms basically refused to make any guarantees about what happens if my friend struck out of the h1b process the first go around. worth inquiring about. I'd guess that the NYC firms/ NYC offices are more likely to do that but that may be pure conjecture

I've heard that certain NYC firms (talking v10/20 range here) have cut people loose when they struck out on the H1b lottery instead of trying to place them with overseas offices. It seems that the fact a firm has large overseas practices is not in itself an accurate predictor of how they will behave in that situation, but rather it's the relationship between the satellite offices and the NYC headquarter and the needs of the firm at that particular moment that matter more (and which you have no way of knowing by Googling).

[Anonymous User]

your visa status will come into play. V10 in NYC promised to do the whole h1b process thing for one of my friends up to three times or something like that I think

One of the premier DC biglaw firms basically refused to make any guarantees about what happens if my friend struck out of the h1b process the first go around. worth inquiring about. I'd guess that the NYC firms/ NYC offices are more likely to do that but that may be pure conjecture

I've heard that certain NYC firms (talking v10/20 range here) have cut people loose when they struck out on the H1b lottery instead of trying to place them with overseas offices. It seems that the fact a firm has large overseas practices is not in itself an accurate predictor of how they will behave in that situation, but rather it's the relationship between the satellite offices and the NYC headquarter and the needs of the firm at that particular moment that matter more (and which you have no way of knowing by Googling).

Every person I know at a firm who missed out on the H1B lottery was sent home with the promise of a reapplication next year. But that's it. No one got transferred to an overseas office. Most of these people just sat around all year at home waiting for the next application cycle.

[Anonymous User]

.

[Anonymous User]

your visa status will come into play. V10 in NYC promised to do the whole h1b process thing for one of my friends up to three times or something like that I think

One of the premier DC biglaw firms basically refused to make any guarantees about what happens if my friend struck out of the h1b process the first go around. worth inquiring about. I'd guess that the NYC firms/ NYC offices are more likely to do that but that may be pure conjecture

I've heard that certain NYC firms (talking v10/20 range here) have cut people loose when they struck out on the H1b lottery instead of trying to place them with overseas offices. It seems that the fact a firm has large overseas practices is not in itself an accurate predictor of how they will behave in that situation, but rather it's the relationship between the satellite offices and the NYC headquarter and the needs of the firm at that particular moment that matter more (and which you have no way of knowing by Googling).

Every person I know at a firm who missed out on the H1B lottery was sent home with the promise of a reapplication next year. But that's it. No one got transferred to an overseas office. Most of these people just sat around all year at home waiting for the next application cycle.

that's crazy, if the firm doesn't staff associates who struck out H1B lottery at its oversea offices and just let them waste a year sitting around, would a lateral move out of the firm then possibly move back for the next H1B application be frown upon?

[Anonymous User]

your visa status will come into play. V10 in NYC promised to do the whole h1b process thing for one of my friends up to three times or something like that I think

One of the premier DC biglaw firms basically refused to make any guarantees about what happens if my friend struck out of the h1b process the first go around. worth inquiring about. I'd guess that the NYC firms/ NYC offices are more likely to do that but that may be pure conjecture

I've heard that certain NYC firms (talking v10/20 range here) have cut people loose when they struck out on the H1b lottery instead of trying to place them with overseas offices. It seems that the fact a firm has large overseas practices is not in itself an accurate predictor of how they will behave in that situation, but rather it's the relationship between the satellite offices and the NYC headquarter and the needs of the firm at that particular moment that matter more (and which you have no way of knowing by Googling).

Every person I know at a firm who missed out on the H1B lottery was sent home with the promise of a reapplication next year. But that's it. No one got transferred to an overseas office. Most of these people just sat around all year at home waiting for the next application cycle.

Sit around all year at home? Are they still considered employed by the firm? No salary? Do you know any of those promises by the firms were actually carried out? Any specific reason why they are not transferred to oversea office that you can share? Thank you for the info.

[sparkytrainer]

your visa status will come into play. V10 in NYC promised to do the whole h1b process thing for one of my friends up to three times or something like that I think

One of the premier DC biglaw firms basically refused to make any guarantees about what happens if my friend struck out of the h1b process the first go around. worth inquiring about. I'd guess that the NYC firms/ NYC offices are more likely to do that but that may be pure conjecture

I've heard that certain NYC firms (talking v10/20 range here) have cut people loose when they struck out on the H1b lottery instead of trying to place them with overseas offices. It seems that the fact a firm has large overseas practices is not in itself an accurate predictor of how they will behave in that situation, but rather it's the relationship between the satellite offices and the NYC headquarter and the needs of the firm at that particular moment that matter more (and which you have no way of knowing by Googling).

Every person I know at a firm who missed out on the H1B lottery was sent home with the promise of a reapplication next year. But that's it. No one got transferred to an overseas office. Most of these people just sat around all year at home waiting for the next application cycle.

Sit around all year at home? Are they still considered employed by the firm? No salary? Do you know any of those promises by the firms were actually carried out? Any specific reason why they are not transferred to oversea office that you can share? Thank you for the info.

This isn't uncommon. And by "sitting home" it means they are unemployed. Once the firm gets you out of the country, you aren't coming back, no matter that the firm might say they will try again. I know a handful of people who didn't get a h1b and were sent home and were jobless.

International students should recognize the risks of trying to stay in the U.S. The odds are very much against you and you are an expensive risk for a firm. Unless you have some rare language skill or something extremely unique (like your dad runs a state-owned bank in China), you should spend your time looking for employment back in your home country more than the U.S.

Out of all the international students I know who got v100 firms to sponsor them, only 1 out of 7 is still in the U.S. That number doesn't include the 15 international students who had good/great grades, but couldnt find a firm to sponsor them. So, it might just be my personal experience, but only 1 out of 22 international students I knew are at a firm being sponsored.

As far as being transferred to overseas offices, a lot of firms will say that, but the vast majority just wont waste their time or money.

[Anonymous User]

your visa status will come into play. V10 in NYC promised to do the whole h1b process thing for one of my friends up to three times or something like that I think

One of the premier DC biglaw firms basically refused to make any guarantees about what happens if my friend struck out of the h1b process the first go around. worth inquiring about. I'd guess that the NYC firms/ NYC offices are more likely to do that but that may be pure conjecture

I've heard that certain NYC firms (talking v10/20 range here) have cut people loose when they struck out on the H1b lottery instead of trying to place them with overseas offices. It seems that the fact a firm has large overseas practices is not in itself an accurate predictor of how they will behave in that situation, but rather it's the relationship between the satellite offices and the NYC headquarter and the needs of the firm at that particular moment that matter more (and which you have no way of knowing by Googling).

Every person I know at a firm who missed out on the H1B lottery was sent home with the promise of a reapplication next year. But that's it. No one got transferred to an overseas office. Most of these people just sat around all year at home waiting for the next application cycle.

Sit around all year at home? Are they still considered employed by the firm? No salary? Do you know any of those promises by the firms were actually carried out? Any specific reason why they are not transferred to oversea office that you can share? Thank you for the info.

This isn't uncommon. And by "sitting home" it means they are unemployed. Once the firm gets you out of the country, you aren't coming back, no matter that the firm might say they will try again. I know a handful of people who didn't get a h1b and were sent home and were jobless.

International students should recognize the risks of trying to stay in the U.S. The odds are very much against you and you are an expensive risk for a firm. Unless you have some rare language skill or something extremely unique (like your dad runs a state-owned bank in China), you should spend your time looking for employment back in your home country more than the U.S.

Out of all the international students I know who got v100 firms to sponsor them, only 1 out of 7 is still in the U.S. That number doesn't include the 15 international students who had good/great grades, but couldnt find a firm to sponsor them. So, it might just be my personal experience, but only 1 out of 22 international students I knew are at a firm being sponsored.

As far as being transferred to overseas offices, a lot of firms will say that, but the vast majority just wont waste their time or money.

Thank you for the info again. 1/22 sounds discouraging indeed. I know some int'l graduates on social media who secured H1B but it could just be survivorship bias.

Also I've heard from other int'l graduates that firms often look for higher class rank on int'l student than the rank they usually consider for general graduates. Can your experience confirm that?

It's true that international students are expensive risks for the firm. But int'l students also take the expensive risk of attending US law school because American legal industry is significantly better than that of their home country. At least for me I am not looking forward to study for the politicized bar, work in an under-developed industry, and practice in the land of no law. The risk is freely assumed.

[sparkytrainer]

your visa status will come into play. V10 in NYC promised to do the whole h1b process thing for one of my friends up to three times or something like that I think

One of the premier DC biglaw firms basically refused to make any guarantees about what happens if my friend struck out of the h1b process the first go around. worth inquiring about. I'd guess that the NYC firms/ NYC offices are more likely to do that but that may be pure conjecture

I've heard that certain NYC firms (talking v10/20 range here) have cut people loose when they struck out on the H1b lottery instead of trying to place them with overseas offices. It seems that the fact a firm has large overseas practices is not in itself an accurate predictor of how they will behave in that situation, but rather it's the relationship between the satellite offices and the NYC headquarter and the needs of the firm at that particular moment that matter more (and which you have no way of knowing by Googling).

Every person I know at a firm who missed out on the H1B lottery was sent home with the promise of a reapplication next year. But that's it. No one got transferred to an overseas office. Most of these people just sat around all year at home waiting for the next application cycle.

Sit around all year at home? Are they still considered employed by the firm? No salary? Do you know any of those promises by the firms were actually carried out? Any specific reason why they are not transferred to oversea office that you can share? Thank you for the info.

This isn't uncommon. And by "sitting home" it means they are unemployed. Once the firm gets you out of the country, you aren't coming back, no matter that the firm might say they will try again. I know a handful of people who didn't get a h1b and were sent home and were jobless.

International students should recognize the risks of trying to stay in the U.S. The odds are very much against you and you are an expensive risk for a firm. Unless you have some rare language skill or something extremely unique (like your dad runs a state-owned bank in China), you should spend your time looking for employment back in your home country more than the U.S.

Out of all the international students I know who got v100 firms to sponsor them, only 1 out of 7 is still in the U.S. That number doesn't include the 15 international students who had good/great grades, but couldnt find a firm to sponsor them. So, it might just be my personal experience, but only 1 out of 22 international students I knew are at a firm being sponsored.

As far as being transferred to overseas offices, a lot of firms will say that, but the vast majority just wont waste their time or money.

Thank you for the info again. 1/22 sounds discouraging indeed. I know some int'l graduates on social media who secured H1B but it could just be survivorship bias.

Also I've heard from other int'l graduates that firms often look for higher class rank on int'l student than the rank they usually consider for general graduates. Can your experience confirm that?

It's true that international students are expensive risks for the firm. But int'l students also take the expensive risk of attending US law school because American legal industry is significantly better than that of their home country. At least for me I am not looking forward to study for the politicized bar, work in an under-developed industry, and practice in the land of no law. The risk is freely assumed.

Usually yes, they require higher class rank. While someone at median at my t13 could easily pull NYC biglaw, international students struggled. It might be for a host of reasons, like worse english skills, not as comfortable interviewing, etc.

Just understand the risk is really high. What happens when you dont beat the odds, dont get a biglaw job in the U.S., and have to go back to your home country with $250,000 in debt? And the American legal industry isn't in great shape anyway.

Also, this is also assuming the status quo stays with H1B visas. The current administration wants to end this program altogether. There is a non-zero chance next year that this program is GONE COMPLETELY, or at least substantially enough to give you a 0% chance at a U.S. job.

Truthfully, you are better off trying another country. I would suggest Canada or the U.K. I do not know what it is like for internationals to stay after graduating, but I have heard at least anecdotally that those places are less risky, and school is cheaper.

Edit: and before, I was talking specifically about NYC biglaw, where it is objectively easier to get a a job as an int'l. The numbers are hard enough without trying to get into a more insular market. I would inform you the risks of trying to get a non-nyc market are even worse. Your plan is already built on failure. Not being mean, just being direct. If you think you will be the int'l student beating the odds in Chicago, I have a bridge in Alaska to sell you.

[ksmaster123]

your visa status will come into play. V10 in NYC promised to do the whole h1b process thing for one of my friends up to three times or something like that I think

One of the premier DC biglaw firms basically refused to make any guarantees about what happens if my friend struck out of the h1b process the first go around. worth inquiring about. I'd guess that the NYC firms/ NYC offices are more likely to do that but that may be pure conjecture

I've heard that certain NYC firms (talking v10/20 range here) have cut people loose when they struck out on the H1b lottery instead of trying to place them with overseas offices. It seems that the fact a firm has large overseas practices is not in itself an accurate predictor of how they will behave in that situation, but rather it's the relationship between the satellite offices and the NYC headquarter and the needs of the firm at that particular moment that matter more (and which you have no way of knowing by Googling).

Every person I know at a firm who missed out on the H1B lottery was sent home with the promise of a reapplication next year. But that's it. No one got transferred to an overseas office. Most of these people just sat around all year at home waiting for the next application cycle.

Sit around all year at home? Are they still considered employed by the firm? No salary? Do you know any of those promises by the firms were actually carried out? Any specific reason why they are not transferred to oversea office that you can share? Thank you for the info.

This isn't uncommon. And by "sitting home" it means they are unemployed. Once the firm gets you out of the country, you aren't coming back, no matter that the firm might say they will try again. I know a handful of people who didn't get a h1b and were sent home and were jobless.

International students should recognize the risks of trying to stay in the U.S. The odds are very much against you and you are an expensive risk for a firm. Unless you have some rare language skill or something extremely unique (like your dad runs a state-owned bank in China), you should spend your time looking for employment back in your home country more than the U.S.

Out of all the international students I know who got v100 firms to sponsor them, only 1 out of 7 is still in the U.S. That number doesn't include the 15 international students who had good/great grades, but couldnt find a firm to sponsor them. So, it might just be my personal experience, but only 1 out of 22 international students I knew are at a firm being sponsored.

As far as being transferred to overseas offices, a lot of firms will say that, but the vast majority just wont waste their time or money.

Thank you for the info again. 1/22 sounds discouraging indeed. I know some int'l graduates on social media who secured H1B but it could just be survivorship bias.

Also I've heard from other int'l graduates that firms often look for higher class rank on int'l student than the rank they usually consider for general graduates. Can your experience confirm that?

It's true that international students are expensive risks for the firm. But int'l students also take the expensive risk of attending US law school because American legal industry is significantly better than that of their home country. At least for me I am not looking forward to study for the politicized bar, work in an under-developed industry, and practice in the land of no law. The risk is freely assumed.

Usually yes, they require higher class rank. While someone at median at my t13 could easily pull NYC biglaw, international students struggled. It might be for a host of reasons, like worse english skills, not as comfortable interviewing, etc.

Just understand the risk is really high. What happens when you dont beat the odds, dont get a biglaw job in the U.S., and have to go back to your home country with $250,000 in debt? And the American legal industry isn't in great shape anyway.

Also, this is also assuming the status quo stays with H1B visas. The current administration wants to end this program altogether. There is a non-zero chance next year that this program is GONE COMPLETELY, or at least substantially enough to give you a 0% chance at a U.S. job.

Truthfully, you are better off trying another country. I would suggest Canada or the U.K. I do not know what it is like for internationals to stay after graduating, but I have heard at least anecdotally that those places are less risky, and school is cheaper.

Edit: and before, I was talking specifically about NYC biglaw, where it is objectively easier to get a a job as an int'l. The numbers are hard enough without trying to get into a more insular market. I would inform you the risks of trying to get a non-nyc market are even worse. Your plan is already built on failure. Not being mean, just being direct. If you think you will be the int'l student beating the odds in Chicago, I have a bridge in Alaska to sell you.

What's the situation with Canadians? We don't need work sponsorship, assuming Trump doesn't remove our TN status. We should also be culturally compatible with Americans. Do you see the same degree of struggle from your Canadian peers (if you had any)? Thanks!

[Anonymous User]

your visa status will come into play. V10 in NYC promised to do the whole h1b process thing for one of my friends up to three times or something like that I think

One of the premier DC biglaw firms basically refused to make any guarantees about what happens if my friend struck out of the h1b process the first go around. worth inquiring about. I'd guess that the NYC firms/ NYC offices are more likely to do that but that may be pure conjecture

I've heard that certain NYC firms (talking v10/20 range here) have cut people loose when they struck out on the H1b lottery instead of trying to place them with overseas offices. It seems that the fact a firm has large overseas practices is not in itself an accurate predictor of how they will behave in that situation, but rather it's the relationship between the satellite offices and the NYC headquarter and the needs of the firm at that particular moment that matter more (and which you have no way of knowing by Googling).

Every person I know at a firm who missed out on the H1B lottery was sent home with the promise of a reapplication next year. But that's it. No one got transferred to an overseas office. Most of these people just sat around all year at home waiting for the next application cycle.

Sit around all year at home? Are they still considered employed by the firm? No salary? Do you know any of those promises by the firms were actually carried out? Any specific reason why they are not transferred to oversea office that you can share? Thank you for the info.

This isn't uncommon. And by "sitting home" it means they are unemployed. Once the firm gets you out of the country, you aren't coming back, no matter that the firm might say they will try again. I know a handful of people who didn't get a h1b and were sent home and were jobless.

International students should recognize the risks of trying to stay in the U.S. The odds are very much against you and you are an expensive risk for a firm. Unless you have some rare language skill or something extremely unique (like your dad runs a state-owned bank in China), you should spend your time looking for employment back in your home country more than the U.S.

Out of all the international students I know who got v100 firms to sponsor them, only 1 out of 7 is still in the U.S. That number doesn't include the 15 international students who had good/great grades, but couldnt find a firm to sponsor them. So, it might just be my personal experience, but only 1 out of 22 international students I knew are at a firm being sponsored.

As far as being transferred to overseas offices, a lot of firms will say that, but the vast majority just wont waste their time or money.

Thank you for the info again. 1/22 sounds discouraging indeed. I know some int'l graduates on social media who secured H1B but it could just be survivorship bias.

Also I've heard from other int'l graduates that firms often look for higher class rank on int'l student than the rank they usually consider for general graduates. Can your experience confirm that?

It's true that international students are expensive risks for the firm. But int'l students also take the expensive risk of attending US law school because American legal industry is significantly better than that of their home country. At least for me I am not looking forward to study for the politicized bar, work in an under-developed industry, and practice in the land of no law. The risk is freely assumed.

Usually yes, they require higher class rank. While someone at median at my t13 could easily pull NYC biglaw, international students struggled. It might be for a host of reasons, like worse english skills, not as comfortable interviewing, etc.

Just understand the risk is really high. What happens when you dont beat the odds, dont get a biglaw job in the U.S., and have to go back to your home country with $250,000 in debt? And the American legal industry isn't in great shape anyway.

Also, this is also assuming the status quo stays with H1B visas. The current administration wants to end this program altogether. There is a non-zero chance next year that this program is GONE COMPLETELY, or at least substantially enough to give you a 0% chance at a U.S. job.

Truthfully, you are better off trying another country. I would suggest Canada or the U.K. I do not know what it is like for internationals to stay after graduating, but I have heard at least anecdotally that those places are less risky, and school is cheaper.

Edit: and before, I was talking specifically about NYC biglaw, where it is objectively easier to get a a job as an int'l. The numbers are hard enough without trying to get into a more insular market. I would inform you the risks of trying to get a non-nyc market are even worse. Your plan is already built on failure. Not being mean, just being direct. If you think you will be the int'l student beating the odds in Chicago, I have a bridge in Alaska to sell you.

I know little about UK and Canada. From the little I know, UK is pretty hard for int'l students to stay too. Canada is more friendly in in term of OPT period and probably work visa. I could be wrong. But for me personally, I had my UG in America so I would consider America my first choice.

Trump's policy on immigration and visa makes all of us in danger. I'm currently 0L so my best wish would be to have Trump removed from oval office before he removes H1B by the time I graduate.

(p.s. I don't get the Alaska bridge punchline. Help me out)

[Anonymous User]

What's the situation with Canadians? We don't need work sponsorship, assuming Trump doesn't remove our TN status. We should also be culturally compatible with Americans. Do you see the same degree of struggle from your Canadian peers (if you had any)? Thanks![/quote]

FWIW I’m a Canadian at a T14 and Ill be summering in Chicago in 2018. The other Canadian in the class will too. The TN process is way easier than h1b so that could be a difference. Also maybe all the struggles come later but i didn’t feel like oci interviewers were that concerned.

[smokeylarue]

Best shot is in NYC. #1 NYC is already the landing spot for a lot of international kids so a lot of firms will at least have some precedent and experience working with foreigners, and #2 NYC has by far the largest classes and most number of offices so you have the best chance from a numbers perspective. I would echo what someone above said, my observation was international kids on average did not do as well at OCI (I was at a T6 too) as the rest of the class. My guess is their English/interviewing skills as the reason but I really couldn't tell you exactly.

[Anonymous User]

Best shot is in NYC. #1 NYC is already the landing spot for a lot of international kids so a lot of firms will at least have some precedent and experience working with foreigners, and #2 NYC has by far the largest classes and most number of offices so you have the best chance from a numbers perspective. I would echo what someone above said, my observation was international kids on average did not do as well at OCI (I was at a T6 too) as the rest of the class. My guess is their English/interviewing skills as the reason but I really couldn't tell you exactly.

Int'l student at T14 and struck out during OCI. Overheard an interviewer at a V10 firm complaining (or just stating a "fact") to his colleague about there being too many international students. Not going into more details because it was long ago and I even started to doubt myself that it had ever happened (by reason I can't believe it is something that one can't wait to vent out before leaving OCI and be dumb enough to let someone else overhear). Better just be my hallucination. Still remember how it hurt me at the moment tho.

Never told anyone else about it and it feels good to "air" it out. Btw I don't mean to say I struck out because someone who didn't even interview me said something which might be representative of some people's attitude. I agree that it was a totality of many things, bad English/interview skills/cultural nuances, etc., and I happened to have all of them. Nevertheless, good luck op, all roads lead to Rome, and you don't even have to go to Rome.

[Anonymous User]

As to NYC Market: Most of non-Canadian internationals (~95%) at my HYS got NYC biglaw through OCI/EIP. I don't know if people had hard time getting jobs because their resume screams international. But I know a few people with grade far below median who snagged NYC V15-V50, and those people speak with prominent accent, graduated from college in their far east asian country etc.

More so than getting a job, I think the crucial Q is what the firm policy is with regards to 1) how many times the firm puts you through H1-B lottery and 2) what happens if you fail to obtain the visa from the lottery.

As to 1), there are a few conservative firms in V20 that only gives you ONE SHOT at the lottery during your first year. And a lot of these firms don't have great international presence, so won't rotate you to their international office if you don't get lucky with H1-B lottery.

As to 2), from what I hear more than half of V20s cut you loose if you don't get H1-B. I only know of like 5 V20 firms that guarantee you will be placed in an international office and will apply for H1-B again and again until you get it, or bring you back on the intracompany transfer visa (L-1). After I got my offers from EIP, I had frank talks with firms (partners/HR), and basically made them guarantee I will be put in an international office. Two of a handful V10 firms guaranteed.

But the problem with firms that do place you in international office is that you'll most likely have to work cap markets for the 1-3 years you are in that international office. This means when you come back to the US as 3-4th year associate, you'll probably get stuck doing cap markets in the US too. If you're not into cap markets, then well... hopefully you get H1-B on the first lottery.

As to non-NYC market: The only internationals I know are those who applied DC, but funnily enough, all of them got their H1-B, so no clue what DC offices' policies are.

[Anonymous User]

None of the V5 guaranteed placement in an international office, but each gave me statistics along the lines of:

"well, of the 8 non-U.S. associates, 5 got H1-Bs, 2 were placed in our foreign office, and 1 got an LLM" or some other story like that that made it seem like they were inviting you to take the risk.

[Anonymous User]

Also, this is also assuming the status quo stays with H1B visas. The current administration wants to end this program altogether. There is a non-zero chance next year that this program is GONE COMPLETELY, or at least substantially enough to give you a 0% chance at a U.S. job.

What? None of the major proposed revisions to the H1-B program proposes to eliminate it completely. If anything, the trend is towards going to a points-based system where factors such as level of education and salary increase your chances, which will help big law associates (JDs more so than LLMs, but still).

All that being said, I think the administration is more focussed on tax reform for now lol

[Anonymous User]

As to NYC Market: Most of non-Canadian internationals (~95%) at my HYS got NYC biglaw through OCI/EIP. I don't know if people had hard time getting jobs because their resume screams international. But I know a few people with grade far below median who snagged NYC V15-V50, and those people speak with prominent accent, graduated from college in their far east asian country etc.

More so than getting a job, I think the crucial Q is what the firm policy is with regards to 1) how many times the firm puts you through H1-B lottery and 2) what happens if you fail to obtain the visa from the lottery.

As to 1), there are a few conservative firms in V20 that only gives you ONE SHOT at the lottery during your first year. And a lot of these firms don't have great international presence, so won't rotate you to their international office if you don't get lucky with H1-B lottery.

As to 2), from what I hear more than half of V20s cut you loose if you don't get H1-B. I only know of like 5 V20 firms that guarantee you will be placed in an international office and will apply for H1-B again and again until you get it, or bring you back on the intracompany transfer visa (L-1). After I got my offers from EIP, I had frank talks with firms (partners/HR), and basically made them guarantee I will be put in an international office. Two of a handful V10 firms guaranteed.

But the problem with firms that do place you in international office is that you'll most likely have to work cap markets for the 1-3 years you are in that international office. This means when you come back to the US as 3-4th year associate, you'll probably get stuck doing cap markets in the US too. If you're not into cap markets, then well... hopefully you get H1-B on the first lottery.

As to non-NYC market: The only internationals I know are those who applied DC, but funnily enough, all of them got their H1-B, so no clue what DC offices' policies are.

Being stuck doing securities work is a low, low price to pay for not being left without a job and a degree that's pretty much useless in other countries (and possibly a ton of debt).

[Anonymous User]

I don't understand why international associates are an "expensive risk" to the firm? If they've already hired you, if anything striking out with the H1-B gives them a easy way to fire you without even suffering the bad PR/TLS gossip/potential ATL writeup. Then they end up saving that $$, however marginal the amount is. By keeping you around for a year and already investing in your training, I think it's an indication that to the extent it's a risk at all, the firm has willingly taken it on.

[Anonymous User]

Also, this is also assuming the status quo stays with H1B visas. The current administration wants to end this program altogether. There is a non-zero chance next year that this program is GONE COMPLETELY, or at least substantially enough to give you a 0% chance at a U.S. job.

What? None of the major proposed revisions to the H1-B program proposes to eliminate it completely. If anything, the trend is towards going to a points-based system where factors such as level of education and salary increase your chances, which will help big law associates (JDs more so than LLMs, but still).

All that being said, I think the administration is more focussed on tax reform for now lol

Yeah complete recap of H1-B is BS. I've heard of a bill that plans to hike up minimum wage for H1-B to $130K, but that's only good for internationals in biglaw. Also I agree there's no way that bill is going to go through this year.

People, stop make up rumors.