Non-legal exit options for in-house counsel Forum

[JayDubya]

How are the non-legal exit options, or even lateral/promotion options within the same company, for someone who spends a few years as corporate in-house counsel for a F500 company?

I've heard (generally; no specific examples) that going in-house gives one the option of progressing into non-legal management or executive jobs, but is this really a thing???

[84651846190]

If you get a non-legal corporate job, it's not going to be because of your legal expertise. It's going to be because you learn a shitton about a particular company/industry. Anyone can learn a shitton about an industry and work their way up from lower to upper management. It's not easy for anyone, and certainly isn't easy for lawyers. I'd be more likely to question why the hell someone with a law degree would want non-legal management jobs if I were hiring for such positions and some lawyer's resume crossed my desk. Corporations (and I have worked in one) seem a lot more likely to hire from engineering/lower management.

Some dumbass is going to prance in here and give you some anecdote to the contrary, but the reality is that going to law school makes ZERO sense for the vast majority of people going to law school these days.

[Companion Cube]

Some dumbass is going to prance in here and give you some anecdote to the contrary, but the reality is that going to law school makes ZERO sense for the vast majority of people going to law school these days.

Projecting much? Or is does this blatant red herring have an actual purpose in his thread?

[84651846190]

Some dumbass is going to prance in here and give you some anecdote to the contrary, but the reality is that going to law school makes ZERO sense for the vast majority of people going to law school these days.

Projecting much? Or is does this blatant red herring have an actual purpose in his thread?

I don't know if OP is pre-law or in law school or a graduate, but if either of the former two, he/she should know that going to law school in order to get a non-law job is stupid and not something that would even remotely make going to law school worth it for the vast majority of people.

[Companion Cube]

Ok I do agree that if OP is a 0L (or even In law school) his/her question is pretty dumb

I guess I just assumed that OP was a junior associate or in house somewhere and just hated being a lawyer and was looking for a way out

[Anonymous User]

If you get a non-legal corporate job, it's not going to be because of your legal expertise. It's going to be because you learn a shitton about a particular company/industry. Anyone can learn a shitton about an industry and work their way up from lower to upper management. It's not easy for anyone, and certainly isn't easy for lawyers. I'd be more likely to question why the hell someone with a law degree would want non-legal management jobs if I were hiring for such positions and some lawyer's resume crossed my desk. Corporations (and I have worked in one) seem a lot more likely to hire from engineering/lower management.

Some dumbass is going to prance in here and give you some anecdote to the contrary, but the reality is that going to law school makes ZERO sense for the vast majority of people going to law school these days.

I'll counter here with the idea that certain management type positions are unattainable to a lot of people who are going to attend law school. Yeah if you have a finance undergrad with a good g.p.a. law school is a stupid idea if you want to get into non-legal management. However, for a lot of the people actually going to law school, its a kind of rebranding. Its a chance for people to be able to reinvent themselves from some liberal arts shit head to a business focus.

I'll admit splitter so an extreme case, but theres no way in hell that my 1L Summer position (F100 Corporate Development) would have been available to me with a 3.8 in undergrad(and 3 years after). Yeah I'm sacrificing 150k or so in lost salary(K-JD)+tuition but I'll still graduate debt free since I worked 1L year and I'll have extremely different opportunities than if I had gone straight into business roles. With a 3.8 in say sociology or history, you don't really have the option of careers that are on good management tracks. For example Target will hire people primarily in their store manager roles but not in corporate if you have a history undergrad. You can get an MBA but a store manager isn't great experience to go to an M7 b-school. Going outside of an M7(maybe T15) b-school you are on the same footing basically as lawyers where you are going to have to hustle because the companies that one would really want to work for, don't actually come on campus. Yeah there might be better routes and this option is from poor planning, and yeah maybe a masters in management might be better but law school can definitely change alot of peoples prospects getting into upper management positions in five to ten years. The idea should be to look at potential law students in the abstract; where they are at that point, not what they should have done three years ago.

[84651846190]

A top MBA is cheaper and easier to get than any JD and would give you a better shot at the vast majority of non-legal jobs.

Going to law school for a non-legal job only makes sense for people with VERY unique circumstances (like a guaranteed job offer after graduation).

[Anonymous User]

The average person going to a t14 law school has little chance at admittance from a top MBA much less $$$.

Law school can definitely rebrand you and recruiters look at it favorably if you don't do something pointless like clerk for a shit law firm or a judge your 1l summer.

Yeah a top MBA is a better option for a job but again most law students don't have that option.

[crazycanuck]

Some dumbass is going to prance in here and give you some anecdote to the contrary, but the reality is that going to law school makes ZERO sense for the vast majority of people going to law school these days.

Projecting much? Or is does this blatant red herring have an actual purpose in his thread?

yes going to law school to be something other than a lawyer doesn't make a lot of sense, but no, it's not impossible to get out. I hire people regularly, hired 10 people in the last 3 months, one of whom used to be a lawyer, went to a company, moved around in that company, got some great Operations experience, and is a great person to have on my team. Our VP of Ops (1000 person company) was a lawyer 15 years ago.

I don't know what kind of freak world biglaw associate lives in, but here on earth you're not locked into a single career path for the next 40 years because of a choice you made when you were 22. Careers last a long time and change over time. People do different things. I know accountants in HR, ops people who became CFOs, etc. so you go law school, work for a bit as a lawyer and decide it's not for you, so you go in house in a big company, you take advantage of the training opportunities, you fuck some shit up and learn from it, eventually you build a good reputation for getting shit doneand move to a different area, eventually you move to a different company doing something vaguely similar and continue to get training in a wide variety of skills. People change and careers change. To say "u went to lawl skewl and now you don't want to b a lawler? Lol ur fucked" is stupid. Yes a law degree is for lawyers, but there are thousands of ex lawyers in the work force doing all sorts of fascinating non law work. It's hard, but to move into management is always hard no matter what. If you have a track record of results in ops no one is going to say "but you went to law school 20 years ago!!!". Don't be afraid to take work outside of your comfort zone, try new things, yeah you will fuck shit up and you will learn. You won't be stuck forever.

Disclaimer: I'm not saying you should go to law school if you don't want to be a lawyer, I think the 3 years is better spent learning in ops or corp finance or whatever, but you won't be stuck forever as a lawyer of you really don't like it.

[FSK]

I play Magic (the dorky trading card game), and the one of the new developers for Magic Online was an entertainment lawyer for a number of years. Shit happens - just be knowing you're going to have to make it happen.

[dabigchina]

A top MBA is cheaper and easier to get than any JD

gonna have to call bullshit on that one

[star fox]

Biglaw associate v20 is talking out his ass

[TLSModBot]

Too lazy to look into the MBA/JD comparison stuff, but I think Biglawl V20 is right about the "Don't go to law school unless you want to practice law" part. There are plenty of people who went to law school and then later landed a cushy non-legal job, but correlation does not equal causation. Law school and a JD are barely adequate at getting you employed as a lawyer; they're not going to help significantly in getting jobs outside of that market - certainly not enough to justify the time and cost of law school.

Shit, going to law school doesn't work out for a good half or more of people who WANT to be lawyers.

[nealric]

How are the non-legal exit options, or even lateral/promotion options within the same company, for someone who spends a few years as corporate in-house counsel for a F500 company?

I've heard (generally; no specific examples) that going in-house gives one the option of progressing into non-legal management or executive jobs, but is this really a thing???

I am in house at a F500. I really don't know of anyone at my company who moved from legal to another department. Frankly, I don't see a reason to unless you just hate law for some reason (if you do, why did you go to law school?). The CLO/Chief Counsel job is a C-suite job with commensurate pay. There are a few CLOs who have moved up to CEO at F500, but we are talking a tiny handful of people in the country.

[krads153]

I play Magic (the dorky trading card game), and the one of the new developers for Magic Online was an entertainment lawyer for a number of years. Shit happens - just be knowing you're going to have to make it happen.

Was he already a programmer or did he go to coding bootcamp or what?

[FSK]

I play Magic (the dorky trading card game), and the one of the new developers for Magic Online was an entertainment lawyer for a number of years. Shit happens - just be knowing you're going to have to make it happen.

Was he already a programmer or did he go to coding bootcamp or what?

http://magic.wizards.com/en/MTGO/articl ... 2015-10-05

Its this dude. Do your own reserach past that.

[krads153]

I play Magic (the dorky trading card game), and the one of the new developers for Magic Online was an entertainment lawyer for a number of years. Shit happens - just be knowing you're going to have to make it happen.

Was he already a programmer or did he go to coding bootcamp or what?

http://magic.wizards.com/en/MTGO/articl ... 2015-10-05

Its this dude. Do your own reserach past that.

His linkedin doesn't say much. Also apparently he still works part time as a lawyer according to his linkedin anyway.

This guy I knew (order of the coif at a t-14) clerked for 2 years for a federal judge, did 1 year at a law firm and quit law and is now full-time programmer. He's now been programming for a few years, so I guess he he ended up liking programming more than law. Guy was undergrad in computer science though.

[84651846190]

A top MBA is cheaper and easier to get than any JD

gonna have to call bullshit on that one

That was an exaggeration. Different factors get you into b school, but even the top b schools don't bar you from entry based on a sub-3.8 GPA in undergrad like HYS do. If you have a legitimate interest in non-legal corporate work, however, you should be doing stuff after college that will help you get into b school (like getting a fucking job; and no, it's not hard to get a job if you hustle). If you do this, it WILL be easy for you to get into b school in you can spin your experience in the right way and crush the GMAT (which is easy as fuck compared to the LSAT).

[Man from Nantucket]

A top MBA is cheaper and easier to get than any JD

gonna have to call bullshit on that one

That was an exaggeration. Different factors get you into b school, but even the top b schools don't bar you from entry based on a sub-3.8 GPA in undergrad like HYS do. If you have a legitimate interest in non-legal corporate work, however, you should be doing stuff after college that will help you get into b school (like getting a fucking job; and no, it's not hard to get a job if you hustle). If you do this, it WILL be easy for you to get into b school in you can spin your experience in the right way and crush the GMAT (which is easy as fuck compared to the LSAT).

Just do M7 biz school with your 3.8 poli sci degree and barista experience brah.

[84651846190]

A top MBA is cheaper and easier to get than any JD

gonna have to call bullshit on that one

That was an exaggeration. Different factors get you into b school, but even the top b schools don't bar you from entry based on a sub-3.8 GPA in undergrad like HYS do. If you have a legitimate interest in non-legal corporate work, however, you should be doing stuff after college that will help you get into b school (like getting a fucking job; and no, it's not hard to get a job if you hustle). If you do this, it WILL be easy for you to get into b school in you can spin your experience in the right way and crush the GMAT (which is easy as fuck compared to the LSAT).

Just do M7 biz school with your 3.8 poli sci degree and barista experience brah.

http://gmatclub.com/forum/2013-profiles ... l#p1169581

[Man from Nantucket]

A top MBA is cheaper and easier to get than any JD

gonna have to call bullshit on that one

That was an exaggeration. Different factors get you into b school, but even the top b schools don't bar you from entry based on a sub-3.8 GPA in undergrad like HYS do. If you have a legitimate interest in non-legal corporate work, however, you should be doing stuff after college that will help you get into b school (like getting a fucking job; and no, it's not hard to get a job if you hustle). If you do this, it WILL be easy for you to get into b school in you can spin your experience in the right way and crush the GMAT (which is easy as fuck compared to the LSAT).

Just do M7 biz school with your 3.8 poli sci degree and barista experience brah.

http://gmatclub.com/forum/2013-profiles ... l#p1169581

Lol seriously? Yes, if you go to a target school and then work at an investment bank for multiple years then your chances of being admitted at an M7 might be higher then being admitted at HYS.

[84651846190]

http://gmatclub.com/forum/2013-profiles ... l#p1169581

Lol seriously? Yes, if you go to a target school and then work at an investment bank for multiple years then your chances of being admitted at an M7 might be higher then being admitted at HYS.

That guy was an "intern" at two different banking jobs, most likely getting coffee for people actually doing banking. I see people in that forum with 2.9s in UG getting M7 because they hustled and got some good work experience. It's really not that hard. People who go to law school are generally just too lazy/unmotivated/uncreative to get a decent job out of UG. Your poli sci degree is not holding you back. Your shitty personality and/or work ethic are.

[Anonymous User]

The above is actually me to a T. I have a great GPA but I'm a lazy shit and I regret it/

[MoonshineJoe]

I work as an in-house attorney at a large software company. In general, I agree with Biglaw Associate v20 that if you want to do something other than law a JD is not going to help much.

That said, I can think of a few examples where someone moved from the legal department to a non-legal role. A few transactional lawyers went into sales based on their reputation for closing deals. Another handled all the contracts for a particular line of business and then took business operations role in that line of business. A third is a chief of staff for an executive, which means that a lot of business decision making is delegated to him. It is not the norm, but it can happen. As someone else mentioned if a lawyer really learns one area of the business it may open up opportunities in that area.

I know a small number of the salesmen I support have JDs as well but did not come from our in-house legal department.

[Anonymous User]

http://gmatclub.com/forum/2013-profiles ... l#p1169581

Lol seriously? Yes, if you go to a target school and then work at an investment bank for multiple years then your chances of being admitted at an M7 might be higher then being admitted at HYS.

That guy was an "intern" at two different banking jobs, most likely getting coffee for people actually doing banking. I see people in that forum with 2.9s in UG getting M7 because they hustled and got some good work experience. It's really not that hard. People who go to law school are generally just too lazy/unmotivated/uncreative to get a decent job out of UG. Your poli sci degree is not holding you back. Your shitty personality and/or work ethic are.

Again look at the person when they are applying, not as a sophomore who still has the opportunity to intern over the summers. Yes b-school makes more sense for people who are still sophomores in college and have the ability to craft experience and hustle for jobs with great experience. However, for most people about to apply, law school makes much more sense for getting into B-school much less, getting a business type job.

The "hard to get jobs" for most state school business schools don't even place well into M7's. For example; (Epic Healthcare, Big 4 audit, FPA roles at F500's, Lower MM Ibanks)