V10 NYC vs. Top TX Firm (For corporate / M&A)

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ig88250

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Re: V10 NYC vs. Top TX Firm (For corporate / M&A)

Postby ig88250 » Thu Sep 24, 2015 7:04 pm

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Last edited by ig88250 on Thu Sep 24, 2015 7:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: V10 NYC vs. Top TX Firm (For corporate / M&A)

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 24, 2015 7:07 pm

Isn't that person saying there are 5-10 no offers every year?

I think you're way overstating how much SAs are to blame for getting no offered. We always chalk it up as "LOL, it's Texas and people split, whatcha gonna do???" but I personally know people who have been screwed by this kind of stuff. It's really not ok IMO.


Fair. I thought it was 5-10 total. I did know there was that large of a discrepancy between the Houston and Dallas office. Thanks for clarifying.

My summer experience in the Dallas office and the experience of my colleagues seems to have been a great one with little worry about getting no offer. Do the requested work, have fun at the summer events, be social--and you have an offer.

Seems as though the Houston SA process is a bit different in expectations and/or process.

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Re: V10 NYC vs. Top TX Firm (For corporate / M&A)

Postby BigZuck » Thu Sep 24, 2015 7:40 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Isn't that person saying there are 5-10 no offers every year?

I think you're way overstating how much SAs are to blame for getting no offered. We always chalk it up as "LOL, it's Texas and people split, whatcha gonna do???" but I personally know people who have been screwed by this kind of stuff. It's really not ok IMO.


Fair. I thought it was 5-10 total. I did know there was that large of a discrepancy between the Houston and Dallas office. Thanks for clarifying.

My summer experience in the Dallas office and the experience of my colleagues seems to have been a great one with little worry about getting no offer. Do the requested work, have fun at the summer events, be social--and you have an offer.

Seems as though the Houston SA process is a bit different in expectations and/or process.

Seems like the issue is way more process than expectations.

To be fair though isn't the most recent round of mass no offers just a rumor? Or has that been confirmed?

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Re: V10 NYC vs. Top TX Firm (For corporate / M&A)

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 24, 2015 8:00 pm

[/quote]
Seems like the issue is way more process than expectations.

To be fair though isn't the most recent round of mass no offers just a rumor? Or has that been confirmed?[/quote]

I think that based on the large amount of anecdotal evidence its really unlikely to not be true. I would say that the no offers were probably a function of the unexpected oil crisis rather than a decision to just no offer a lot, but still bad form. Probably won't happen again next year just to keep a good reputation

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Re: V10 NYC vs. Top TX Firm (For corporate / M&A)

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 24, 2015 8:06 pm

BigZuck wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Isn't that person saying there are 5-10 no offers every year?

I think you're way overstating how much SAs are to blame for getting no offered. We always chalk it up as "LOL, it's Texas and people split, whatcha gonna do???" but I personally know people who have been screwed by this kind of stuff. It's really not ok IMO.


Fair. I thought it was 5-10 total. I did know there was that large of a discrepancy between the Houston and Dallas office. Thanks for clarifying.

My summer experience in the Dallas office and the experience of my colleagues seems to have been a great one with little worry about getting no offer. Do the requested work, have fun at the summer events, be social--and you have an offer.

Seems as though the Houston SA process is a bit different in expectations and/or process.

Seems like the issue is way more process than expectations.

To be fair though isn't the most recent round of mass no offers just a rumor? Or has that been confirmed?


Confirmed: 37/42 for V&E Houston in 2015.

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Re: V10 NYC vs. Top TX Firm (For corporate / M&A)

Postby Companion Cube » Thu Sep 24, 2015 8:28 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Isn't that person saying there are 5-10 no offers every year?

I think you're way overstating how much SAs are to blame for getting no offered. We always chalk it up as "LOL, it's Texas and people split, whatcha gonna do???" but I personally know people who have been screwed by this kind of stuff. It's really not ok IMO.


Fair. I thought it was 5-10 total. I did know there was that large of a discrepancy between the Houston and Dallas office. Thanks for clarifying.

My summer experience in the Dallas office and the experience of my colleagues seems to have been a great one with little worry about getting no offer. Do the requested work, have fun at the summer events, be social--and you have an offer.

Seems as though the Houston SA process is a bit different in expectations and/or process.

Seems like the issue is way more process than expectations.

To be fair though isn't the most recent round of mass no offers just a rumor? Or has that been confirmed?


Confirmed: 37/42 for V&E Houston in 2015.


Source?

Well that's 88% so not terrible (for Houston)

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Re: V10 NYC vs. Top TX Firm (For corporate / M&A)

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 24, 2015 9:12 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Isn't that person saying there are 5-10 no offers every year?

I think you're way overstating how much SAs are to blame for getting no offered. We always chalk it up as "LOL, it's Texas and people split, whatcha gonna do???" but I personally know people who have been screwed by this kind of stuff. It's really not ok IMO.


Fair. I thought it was 5-10 total. I did know there was that large of a discrepancy between the Houston and Dallas office. Thanks for clarifying.

My summer experience in the Dallas office and the experience of my colleagues seems to have been a great one with little worry about getting no offer. Do the requested work, have fun at the summer events, be social--and you have an offer.

Seems as though the Houston SA process is a bit different in expectations and/or process.

Seems like the issue is way more process than expectations.

To be fair though isn't the most recent round of mass no offers just a rumor? Or has that been confirmed?


Confirmed: 37/42 for V&E Houston in 2015.

Does that include cold offers?

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Re: V10 NYC vs. Top TX Firm (For corporate / M&A)

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 24, 2015 9:16 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Isn't that person saying there are 5-10 no offers every year?

I think you're way overstating how much SAs are to blame for getting no offered. We always chalk it up as "LOL, it's Texas and people split, whatcha gonna do???" but I personally know people who have been screwed by this kind of stuff. It's really not ok IMO.


Fair. I thought it was 5-10 total. I did know there was that large of a discrepancy between the Houston and Dallas office. Thanks for clarifying.

My summer experience in the Dallas office and the experience of my colleagues seems to have been a great one with little worry about getting no offer. Do the requested work, have fun at the summer events, be social--and you have an offer.

Seems as though the Houston SA process is a bit different in expectations and/or process.

Seems like the issue is way more process than expectations.

To be fair though isn't the most recent round of mass no offers just a rumor? Or has that been confirmed?


Confirmed: 37/42 for V&E Houston in 2015.

Does that include cold offers?


good one

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Re: V10 NYC vs. Top TX Firm (For corporate / M&A)

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 24, 2015 10:20 pm

Companion Cube wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Isn't that person saying there are 5-10 no offers every year?

I think you're way overstating how much SAs are to blame for getting no offered. We always chalk it up as "LOL, it's Texas and people split, whatcha gonna do???" but I personally know people who have been screwed by this kind of stuff. It's really not ok IMO.


Fair. I thought it was 5-10 total. I did know there was that large of a discrepancy between the Houston and Dallas office. Thanks for clarifying.

My summer experience in the Dallas office and the experience of my colleagues seems to have been a great one with little worry about getting no offer. Do the requested work, have fun at the summer events, be social--and you have an offer.

Seems as though the Houston SA process is a bit different in expectations and/or process.

Seems like the issue is way more process than expectations.

To be fair though isn't the most recent round of mass no offers just a rumor? Or has that been confirmed?


Confirmed: 37/42 for V&E Houston in 2015.


Source?

Well that's 88% so not terrible (for Houston)


Source was HR. And agreed, I don't think 88% is terrible. FWIW I got the sense they genuinely wish it was 100%, but "it doesn't always work out that way" kinda thing. In any case, some of the nicest attorneys I've ever met.

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Re: V10 NYC vs. Top TX Firm (For corporate / M&A)

Postby BigZuck » Fri Sep 25, 2015 10:10 am

88% is pretty pitiful, no offering is clearly baked into their model and that can really screw people over who don't deserve it. I guess it's on the candidate to make the best decision they can, but usually people who have V&E offers have other offers and maybe even offers at 100% firms.

A few no offers here and there are no big deal, those people probably deserved it. But 10% of the summer class from year to year doesn't deserve that, there's no way.

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Re: V10 NYC vs. Top TX Firm (For corporate / M&A)

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 25, 2015 10:47 am

What is the "appropriate" no offer %? Surely nobody is entitled to a job.

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Re: V10 NYC vs. Top TX Firm (For corporate / M&A)

Postby mvp99 » Fri Sep 25, 2015 10:51 am

Anonymous User wrote:What is the "appropriate" no offer %? Surely nobody is entitled to a job.


BigZuck wrote:A few no offers here and there are no big deal

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Re: V10 NYC vs. Top TX Firm (For corporate / M&A)

Postby BigZuck » Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:22 am

Anonymous User wrote:What is the "appropriate" no offer %? Surely nobody is entitled to a job.

At a firm with big summer classes, I don't know, like 0-3%?

Everyone that a firm like V&E hires is entitled to a job unless they really, really do something egregious and screw it up. Law firms have collectively made getting no offered have such tremendously detrimental consequences to the candidates that they shouldn't be screwing with people's careers like that. It's wrong.

But whatchu gonna do, it's TX and people split lulz and they probably deserve it anyway so oh well haha

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Re: V10 NYC vs. Top TX Firm (For corporate / M&A)

Postby BigZuck » Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:30 am

That said I'd probably pick your favorite of the Dallas firms OP and feel good about it. I don't like the no offering nonsense in TX in general (obviously) but V&E has probably the best reputation in TX for corporate work and should set you up for a good career in Dallas long term. Gibson Dunn also sounds justifiable if you're leaning that way.

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Re: V10 NYC vs. Top TX Firm (For corporate / M&A)

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:34 am

Re the no-offers:

Eh idk. Some of the big firms in Houston have a reputation for partying pretty hard during the summer programs. I wouldn't be surprised if 7 or 8 people did something completely stupid while drunk every year. Who knows.

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Re: V10 NYC vs. Top TX Firm (For corporate / M&A)

Postby BigZuck » Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:38 am

Anonymous User wrote:Re the no-offers:

Eh idk. Some of the big firms in Houston have a reputation for partying pretty hard during the summer programs. I wouldn't be surprised if 7 or 8 people did something completely stupid while drunk every year. Who knows.

"Let's give them unlimited free booze and figure out who are the top 10% of partiers."

100% firms in NYC go hard too

I'm not buying this excuse

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Re: V10 NYC vs. Top TX Firm (For corporate / M&A)

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:41 am

Not saying that it's justified and I agree that it's bush league but I have heard stories and seen personally seen some incredibly stupid behavior so, like I said, it wouldn't surprise me.

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Re: V10 NYC vs. Top TX Firm (For corporate / M&A)

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:00 pm

But if getting no-offered is common in Houston, wouldn't it be less of a death mark in that market?

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Re: V10 NYC vs. Top TX Firm (For corporate / M&A)

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:07 pm

BigZuck wrote:88% is pretty pitiful, no offering is clearly baked into their model and that can really screw people over who don't deserve it. I guess it's on the candidate to make the best decision they can, but usually people who have V&E offers have other offers and maybe even offers at 100% firms.

A few no offers here and there are no big deal, those people probably deserved it. But 10% of the summer class from year to year doesn't deserve that, there's no way.

There was at least 1 1L no offer so all in it's still in the 6 to 8 range out of 50. You say it's on the candidate but if they call up HR or speak to the HP they get told everybody gets offers unless they really really screw up. They get reassured last year there were only 2 bad apples in a purposely small summer class of 30. Associates will tell the story of the SA who took a cab to Austin and billed it to the firm 5 years ago or the guy who sexually harassed women at the firm 8 years ago - What you won't hear is the story of the SA who is slightly socially awkward but otherwise works hard or the SA who falls through the cracks, just fails to stand out in good or bad way in a 50 person summer class.

You also have law student special snowflake syndrome, no way I am the one to get no offered, I am top 10-20% of my class. Problem is like law school somebody has to be in the bottom 5-10 of the summer class and 6-10 week summers end up being not nearly as objective as grades, you're also competing against great candidates. Offer rates are misleading themselves - you have the person from Dallas who says all get offers barring an outlier every few years and 2014 firmwide was 50/52 according to Vault. And you have 10 1L returning SAs who do 2 summers and already have the offer in the bag. Just know that multiple no offers always go out in Houston - 8 in 2013, 7 in 2012, double digits every year 2009-11. In a class of 15% YHS and 50% T14 and 80% T14 + UT that is not a fun game of roulette to play.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: V10 NYC vs. Top TX Firm (For corporate / M&A)

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:09 pm

Anonymous User wrote:But if getting no-offered is common in Houston, wouldn't it be less of a death mark in that market?

Maybe even worse since 3L hiring is much less common in Texas than New York.. and New York firms will be shocked if you tell them you didn't receive an offer if you interview there bc that almost never happens

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Re: V10 NYC vs. Top TX Firm (For corporate / M&A)

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:35 pm

This is great and informative and all. But what do y'all suggest those of us who want to work in Texas do when these firms - objectively the leaders in Texas - are all we have? How about some concrete advice on how to avoid being one of the inevitable no offers?

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Re: V10 NYC vs. Top TX Firm (For corporate / M&A)

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:57 pm

You can vote with your feet and choose a 100% firm over the big 3. There are a good number of V10's in Houston and Dallas now.

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Re: V10 NYC vs. Top TX Firm (For corporate / M&A)

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 25, 2015 2:02 pm

Anonymous User wrote:This is great and informative and all. But what do y'all suggest those of us who want to work in Texas do when these firms - objectively the leaders in Texas - are all we have? How about some concrete advice on how to avoid being one of the inevitable no offers?


Ok to set the record straight a bit, getting a no offer is still PRETTY RARE. V&E was a total outlier this year, so you can't let that be a benchmark. Although it is becoming less and less so, a lot of people split their summers between two firms. Statistically, even if someone got no offered at one, the chances of getting no offered at both were highly unlikely. The firms that have longer programs and don't let splits, generally have much higher acceptance rates, if not 100%.

So advice to avoid no offer? Just do your work on time, go to the events, and don't be a dick/obnoxious drunk. You'll have a 90%+ chance of getting an offer then. Same applies if you are splitting your summer. I know of very very few stories were someone was thought of less at the firm because they choose to split.

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Re: V10 NYC vs. Top TX Firm (For corporate / M&A)

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 25, 2015 2:12 pm

Anonymous User wrote:You can vote with your feet and choose a 100% firm over the big 3. There are a good number of V10's in Houston and Dallas now.


That assumes we have a choice. I'm still waiting to hear from a V10 (hopeless by now) but those jobs are far and few between because of the class size

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Re: V10 NYC vs. Top TX Firm (For corporate / M&A)

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Sep 25, 2015 2:27 pm

BB and V&E are way better in Dallas for offers (100%) than they are in Houston. NRF is bad in Dallas (heard 6/10) but supposedly better in Houston for their offer rate.

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

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