Is Sullivan & Cromwell really that bad? Forum

[v5junior]

I'd certainly take S&C over Skadden, but if the "top" LA firm is Gibson Dunn (or better yet Munger Tolles) you'll be much, much happier there than either of the NY offices.

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I'd take Skadden over S&C in a heartbeat--and in my experience most people feel that way--but I think it's a personality thing and a case-by-case choice.

Equally miserable QOL, indistinguishable work quality. But my impression has been that the personalities at Skadden are significantly more normal. It's always difficult to make sweeping generalizations about large firms with high turnover, but to some extent the "sociable bro" reputation of Skadden is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Back on topic: yeah I do think S&C is really that bad. But everyone in NY biglaw is doing it for the exit ops, right? And S&C will certainly get that for you. If you feel like it's the place for you, go for it.

[lavarman84]

While it's true that it all depends who you work with, if you choose a firm that's known for acting in a certain way, then you are more likely to get a senior that's known for acting that certain way.

I had CB interviewers pick apart my resume and disparage bad grades in front of me (not as good of a grade in property = "I guess you're not going into real estate"), show up in a t shirt and shorts to my interview because they "forgot," and tell me that they don't pitch to clients--they just say "we're Sullivan & Cromwell" and the clients come to them. The hiring partner asked what other firms I had callbacks at, and then straight up told me that only one or two of the ten v15 firms I was considering was "even close" to S&C. He then asked me to accept or decline within 24 hours (against NALP rules).

IMO if you can make it through a callback without rolling your eyes and feeling a bit uneasy at stuff like that, then maybe S&C is for you.

I applaud you for sitting through that and keeping it together well enough to make a good impression.

[Anonymous User]

Right now Sullivan & Cromwell is my only offer... I assume it beats unemployment, right?

[Traynor Brah]

Right now Sullivan & Cromwell is my only offer... I assume it beats unemployment, right?

absolutely. But you'll get other offers, too.

[Anonymous User]

Re "sociable bros"... I don't have an offer from either firm, but I'd probably choose S&C over Skadden bc I do NOT want to work with "sociable bros." I'm a girl and I'm sick & tired of people who think they're still in a frat (& that's kind of how my Skadden interviewer behaved during my screener; don't ask for details, I won't risk outing myself). While I do want to have friends at work, I don't necessarily need to party with them. I have friends outside of work/school for that. I do need my coworkers to be courteous, though, and I hate screamers... So, I should probably hope I get an offer from DPW, huh? (On a more serious note, if I get an offer from either Skadden or S&C (or DPW) and that's my only offer, you bet I'm going to accept it.)

Edit: So, basically, I agree with v5junior. It's a personality thing. If you're a "sociable bro," Skadden is probably a better fit (if generalizations/stereotypes are to be trusted). Do 2nd looks if you can and go with your gut (at least that's what I'm planning to do... if I get offers ).

[El Pollito]

Re "sociable bros"... I don't have an offer from either firm, but I'd probably choose S&C over Skadden bc I do NOT want to work with "sociable bros." I'm a girl and I'm sick & tired of people who think they're still in a frat (& that's kind of how my Skadden interviewer behaved during my screener; don't ask for details, I won't risk outing myself). While I do want to have friends at work, I don't necessarily need to party with them. I have friends outside of work/school for that. I do need my coworkers to be courteous, though, and I hate screamers... So, I should probably hope I get an offer from DPW, huh? (On a more serious note, if I get an offer from either Skadden or S&C (or DPW) and that's my only offer, you bet I'm going to accept it.)

oh good we thought people were seriously considering unemployment over S&C glad you cleared that up

[Anonymous User]

^ Why u mad? S/he did ask (two posts above mine or so).

[bearsfan23]

I didn't summer at S&C, but I know over the past few years they've hired many outstanding students from my school. Based on what I've read on here, it seems like most of the negativity regarding S&C comes from their upfront hiring standards and their expectation of success.

S&C probably rubs a lot of people the wrong way because they make it clear they want to hire the best law students, but I don't think that necessarily a bad thing. Law students also want to coddled and babied as juniors, and it seems like S&C wants them to pull their weight as actual lawyers.

I could be wrong, but it doesn't seem like S&C is "that" bad

[El Pollito]

I didn't summer at S&C, but I know over the past few years they've hired many outstanding students from my school. Based on what I've read on here, it seems like most of the negativity regarding S&C comes from their upfront hiring standards and their expectation of success.

S&C probably rubs a lot of people the wrong way because they make it clear they want to hire the best law students, but I don't think that necessarily a bad thing. Law students also want to coddled and babied as juniors, and it seems like S&C wants them to pull their weight as actual lawyers.

I could be wrong, but it doesn't seem like S&C is "that" bad

one of my best friends works there and it's pretty fucking miserable

[jbagelboy]

I didn't summer at S&C, but I know over the past few years they've hired many outstanding students from my school. Based on what I've read on here, it seems like most of the negativity regarding S&C comes from their upfront hiring standards and their expectation of success.

S&C probably rubs a lot of people the wrong way because they make it clear they want to hire the best law students, but I don't think that necessarily a bad thing. Law students also want to coddled and babied as juniors, and it seems like S&C wants them to pull their weight as actual lawyers.

I could be wrong, but it doesn't seem like S&C is "that" bad

This is retarded and a total strawman. I like SullCrom more than a lot of people here. But frankly there are lots of firms that want the best law students, including S&C's peers in the city. I don't think anyone on TLS has a real problem with a firm's hiring standards; the more common criticism of S&C is the lack thereof (100% CB->offer rates, ect.). You're doing that backhanded "oh that's just jealousy" move that law students love. Not sure why, though.

[lavarman84]

Law students also want to coddled and babied as juniors

I have a hard time believing that.

[Anonymous User]

To the poster who complained about his CB interviewers being mean, I had an entirely different experience. Everyone was incredibly nice, and a few interviewers even sent thank you notes on their own. Not saying they don't have dick interviewers; just reminding any doe-eyed prospy, as with everything, it depends. I got offers from every firm in V10 except WLRK; S&C and SBT were the only firm where every interviewer (and many alums from my school) sent congratulation notes and (upon my response) continued the conversation.

[MCFC]

Law students also want to coddled and babied as juniors

I have a hard time believing that.

I dunno, I would sign up for some coddling and babying right now, absolutely.

[Anonymous User]

To the poster who complained about his CB interviewers being mean, I had an entirely different experience. Everyone was incredibly nice, and a few interviewers even sent thank you notes on their own. Not saying they don't have dick interviewers; just reminding any doe-eyed prospy, as with everything, it depends. I got offers from every firm in V10 except WLRK; S&C and SBT were the only firm where every interviewer (and many alums from my school) sent congratulation notes and (upon my response) continued the conversation.

I'm at MVP with good but not great grades. My experience was similar to the earlier poster's. From the experience of my classmates who also did S&C screeners/callbacks, there was a strong correlation between how interviewers acted and the credentials of the candidate.

[Anonymous User]

edit: I have no dog in this fight - no need to bash another firm. If you like the firm on your callback, by all means go there. I'd rather their "type" not end up at my firm anyway.

[Old Gregg]

edit: I have no dog in this fight - no need to bash another firm. If you like the firm on your callback, by all means go there. I'd rather their "type" not end up at my firm anyway.

so no need to bash another firm, but hey ur gonna bash them anyways

[bearsfan23]

I didn't summer at S&C, but I know over the past few years they've hired many outstanding students from my school. Based on what I've read on here, it seems like most of the negativity regarding S&C comes from their upfront hiring standards and their expectation of success.

S&C probably rubs a lot of people the wrong way because they make it clear they want to hire the best law students, but I don't think that necessarily a bad thing. Law students also want to coddled and babied as juniors, and it seems like S&C wants them to pull their weight as actual lawyers.

I could be wrong, but it doesn't seem like S&C is "that" bad

This is retarded and a total strawman. I like SullCrom more than a lot of people here. But frankly there are lots of firms that want the best law students, including S&C's peers in the city. I don't think anyone on TLS has a real problem with a firm's hiring standards; the more common criticism of S&C is the lack thereof (100% CB->offer rates, ect.). You're doing that backhanded "oh that's just jealousy" move that law students love. Not sure why, though.

I'm sorry, I just don't get how every "let's bash S&C" thread devolves into criticism based around the same copypasta that's existed for the last 10 years.

The law students I know who've ended up at S&C are great people and extremely intelligent. I think everybody realizes NYC Biglaw is a very tough work environment. I just haven't seen what makes S&C any worse, on average, than firms like Wachtell, CSM, and DPW.

[Anonymous User]

Throughout this recruiting process I've gotten to speak with many partners. Almost all have had only good things to say about SullCrom's legal work and attorneys (although admittedly little talk about S&C's culture). That has not been true for many other peer firms (CSM gets sh*t on by everyone). Something I thought was interesting.

[chuckbass]

Law students also want to coddled and babied as juniors

I have a hard time believing that.

I dunno, I would sign up for some coddling and babying right now, absolutely.

[itbdvorm]

My two cents - it's a great firm, but you absolutely will be treated worse than any other place. There's just zero pretense of coddling. So if you are working for someone who is "nice," you will be treated nicely. If you are working for a screamer, prepare to be annihilated.

This IS different from the rest of the V10 (except maybe K&E). Everywhere else has at least an attempt at being humane - even if it's just lip service and you're still working to the bone.

[dixiecupdrinking]

Getting "thank you" or "nice job" or even "sorry for blowing up your weekend" goes a long way toward maintaining your morale in this job. Maybe I'm soft but I can't imagine working to the bone and then having some asshole make fun of me instead of saying thanks. Don't think I would make it long in that environment.

[2014]

To the poster who complained about his CB interviewers being mean, I had an entirely different experience. Everyone was incredibly nice, and a few interviewers even sent thank you notes on their own. Not saying they don't have dick interviewers; just reminding any doe-eyed prospy, as with everything, it depends. I got offers from every firm in V10 except WLRK; S&C and SBT were the only firm where every interviewer (and many alums from my school) sent congratulation notes and (upon my response) continued the conversation.

They were definitely not put up to this by recruiting and definitely care about you as an individual applicant.

[ManoftheHour]

While it's true that it all depends who you work with, if you choose a firm that's known for acting in a certain way, then you are more likely to get a senior that's known for acting that certain way.

I had CB interviewers pick apart my resume and disparage bad grades in front of me (not as good of a grade in property = "I guess you're not going into real estate"), show up in a t shirt and shorts to my interview because they "forgot," and tell me that they don't pitch to clients--they just say "we're Sullivan & Cromwell" and the clients come to them. The hiring partner asked what other firms I had callbacks at, and then straight up told me that only one or two of the ten v15 firms I was considering was "even close" to S&C. He then asked me to accept or decline within 24 hours (against NALP rules).

IMO if you can make it through a callback without rolling your eyes and feeling a bit uneasy at stuff like that, then maybe S&C is for you.

I had the exact same experience except at my screen. Down to the t-shirt and jeans thing. It was pretty awkward because I knew I wasn't a serious candidate to begin with.

[Anonymous User]

How many people in this thread have actually spent any time at s&c?

[Anonymous User]

Getting "thank you" or "nice job" or even "sorry for blowing up your weekend" goes a long way toward maintaining your morale in this job.

They were definitely not put up to this by recruiting and definitely care about you as an individual applicant.

So, one of the reasons we like firms like DPW and STB is because they say "nice job" and "sorry", but when S&C does something nice it's a recruiting trick. Try harder, guys.