I got fired from Davis Polk & Wardwell LLP Forum

[84651846190]

See my links above (sorry, on mobile). Primary care docs make 2x and other docs make 3x what an average attorney makes.

According to the links you posted, median pay for a lawyer is $113.5K; median pay for a physician is $187.2K. That's consistent with what I imagined.

You misread.

Pay
Wages for physicians and surgeons are among the highest of all occupations. According to the Medical Group Management Association’s Physician Compensation and Production Survey, median total compensation for physicians varied with their type of practice. In 2012, physicians practicing primary care received total median annual compensation of $220,942 and physicians practicing in medical specialties received total median annual compensation of $396,233.

[84651846190]

If you talk to doctors who you know (ie they are being candid) there are many of the same complInts as law: long hours, huge debt, work/life balance. They do not have the same issue with job security, but have a more significant issue with malpractice claims. TCR is if you want considerable free time, lack of stress it is very hard to also make six figures or more.

Doctors are full of shit, though. All of my relatives and friends who are docs are in really good shape and have plenty of time for their golf game. Malpractice insurance may be more expensive but does not change the fact that most docs are making something like twice as much as the average attorney. Docs who complain about the hours are usually the ones working night shift for ER/OB, but even they have an inordinate amount of free time compared to biglawyers.

You have zero idea what you're talking about. That might be the most uninformed, BS post in the history of TLS.

Doctors, on average, have far far more debt than the average law student, and have no way to pay it off until residency/fellowships are over. Most medical students now will have more than $500k in debt before they can practice on their own. Even primary care doctors work far more hours than the average attorney. It's not a 40 hour a week job. Just dealing with insurance companies/forms can take doctors 40 hours a week now.

But I'm glad having 1 or 2 relatives who probably went to school 25 years ago makes you think you're the expert.

Cite your sources before I engage you further.

[84651846190]

The very very high paying physician jobs are very hard to get, even for doctors. There are like 20,000 surgeons in the U.S. (cannot remember exact figure). So these people have unicorn outcomes equivalent to big law partner in nyc.

LOL

There are fewer than 20,000 biglaw partners in NYC. WTF are you talking about?

[los blancos]

If I didn't genuinely enjoy litigation, I'd already be studying to take pre-med prereqs and the MCAT, but y'all are forgetting how many doctors are miserable. CMS in some ways is worse than the tyrannical midlevel looking over your shoulder.

It's 2 years of bookwork, 2 years of sort of chill rotations (I believe), and then 4 years of residency. Supposedly the four years of med school itself are comparatively chill since it's mainly pass/fail and seems like it'd be easier, at least hours wise, than biglaw. Residency would suck, but at least there's a light at the end of the tunnel, unlike in law. A lot of doctors seem to have reasonable hours post-residency, while lawyers seem to work long hours for life.

Hell no, man. 1st and 2nd year are infinitely harder than LS (the amount of material you have to internalize is insane), studying for both steps is brutal, and 3rd year rotations bear many, many similarities with being a biglaw associate (but BONUS - you're paying tuition instead of getting paid six figures!). The debt burdens are also ridiculous. You're right about the light at the end of the tunnel, but the coding/billing aspect of the job still sucks. I think to be genuinely happy as a physician you have to not give a shit about how much you're getting paid and just work for a hospital.

(source: SO is a med student/basically every friend I have from UG went to med school/half my family is physicians)

Also, at least to me, there was this paradox that kept me from going to med school: the interesting specialities have absolutely brutal hours, and the specialties with good QoL are mostly boring.

[84651846190]

If you talk to doctors who you know (ie they are being candid) there are many of the same complInts as law: long hours, huge debt, work/life balance. They do not have the same issue with job security, but have a more significant issue with malpractice claims. TCR is if you want considerable free time, lack of stress it is very hard to also make six figures or more.

Doctors are full of shit, though. All of my relatives and friends who are docs are in really good shape and have plenty of time for their golf game. Malpractice insurance may be more expensive but does not change the fact that most docs are making something like twice as much as the average attorney. Docs who complain about the hours are usually the ones working night shift for ER/OB, but even they have an inordinate amount of free time compared to biglawyers.

You have zero idea what you're talking about. That might be the most uninformed, BS post in the history of TLS.

Doctors, on average, have far far more debt than the average law student, and have no way to pay it off until residency/fellowships are over. Most medical students now will have more than $500k in debt before they can practice on their own. Even primary care doctors work far more hours than the average attorney. It's not a 40 hour a week job. Just dealing with insurance companies/forms can take doctors 40 hours a week now.

But I'm glad having 1 or 2 relatives who probably went to school 25 years ago makes you think you're the expert.

Doctors also qualify for 0% housing loans while in residency and have other pretty awesome prgorams that aren't available to any other profession. They have career stability. They have the option of a 40 hour work week making low six figures by basically teaching at a teaching hospital immediately after graduating and passing boards without working a day. Their salaries ramp up considerably faster than lawyers, and they can make lots of money in low cost ofl iving areas and basically move anywhere in the US there is a hospital rather than choose between 3 big cities. They work a lot but when they are not at work, they are not at work unlike lawyers. I'm not saying being a doctor is all that great but just looking at the numbers its more lucrative than law.

You have to be willfully dumb to think that doctors don't have it fucking awesome compared to lawyers. So you have to spend 10 years paying back loans (https://www.aamc.org/download/152968/da ... ctcard.pdf)? Big deal. You get 30 years of excellent work/life balance. All the bullshit about "spending tons of time doing paperwork" is 100% false for the docs I know (granted, two of them work for HMOs and the other has really good staff that handles his stuff). I mean, doctors literally have waiting lists to see patients and routinely turn away work (i.e., new patients). How many lawyers do you know like that? Almost none.

[rpupkin]

See my links above (sorry, on mobile). Primary care docs make 2x and other docs make 3x what an average attorney makes.

According to the links you posted, median pay for a lawyer is $113.5K; median pay for a physician is $187.2K. That's consistent with what I imagined.

You misread.

No. I just read from the respective charts of the two links you provided. The language you quoted below isn't on those pages. (Maybe it's in one of the links on the page?)

In any case, the apples to apples comparison (all lawyers to all physicians) is $113K to $187K. The figures you mention below are for subsets of physicians. It's not like anyone with a MD can be a primary care physician or a specialist. I mean, if you filter our shit lawyers and limit your lawyer pool to lawyers working at certain types of firms, the median salary will be much higher than $113K.

Pay
Wages for physicians and surgeons are among the highest of all occupations. According to the Medical Group Management Association’s Physician Compensation and Production Survey, median total compensation for physicians varied with their type of practice. In 2012, physicians practicing primary care received total median annual compensation of $220,942 and physicians practicing in medical specialties received total median annual compensation of $396,233.

[84651846190]

If I didn't genuinely enjoy litigation, I'd already be studying to take pre-med prereqs and the MCAT, but y'all are forgetting how many doctors are miserable. CMS in some ways is worse than the tyrannical midlevel looking over your shoulder.

It's 2 years of bookwork, 2 years of sort of chill rotations (I believe), and then 4 years of residency. Supposedly the four years of med school itself are comparatively chill since it's mainly pass/fail and seems like it'd be easier, at least hours wise, than biglaw. Residency would suck, but at least there's a light at the end of the tunnel, unlike in law. A lot of doctors seem to have reasonable hours post-residency, while lawyers seem to work long hours for life.

Hell no, man. 1st and 2nd year are infinitely harder than LS (the amount of material you have to internalize is insane), studying for both steps is brutal, and 3rd year rotations bear many, many similarities with being a biglaw associate (but BONUS - you're paying tuition instead of getting paid six figures!). The debt burdens are also ridiculous. You're right about the light at the end of the tunnel, but the coding/billing aspect of the job still sucks. I think to be genuinely happy as a physician you have to not give a shit about how much you're getting paid and just work for a hospital.

(source: SO is a med student/basically every friend I have from UG went to med school)

I agree with the above. I guess my main point is that the "light at the end of the tunnel" is really all that matters. At least you have hope that, one day, your life will be pretty chill. Lawyers don't have that until they retire.

[84651846190]

See my links above (sorry, on mobile). Primary care docs make 2x and other docs make 3x what an average attorney makes.

According to the links you posted, median pay for a lawyer is $113.5K; median pay for a physician is $187.2K. That's consistent with what I imagined.

You misread.

No. I just read from the respective charts of the two links you provided. The language you quoted below isn't on those pages. (Maybe it's in one of the links on the page?)

In any case, the apples to apples comparison (all lawyers to all physicians) is $113K to $187K. The figures you mention below are for subsets of physicians. It's not like anyone with a MD can be a primary care physician or a specialist. I mean, if you filter our shit lawyers and limit your lawyer pool to lawyers working at certain types of firms, the median salary will be much higher than $113K.

Pay
Wages for physicians and surgeons are among the highest of all occupations. According to the Medical Group Management Association’s Physician Compensation and Production Survey, median total compensation for physicians varied with their type of practice. In 2012, physicians practicing primary care received total median annual compensation of $220,942 and physicians practicing in medical specialties received total median annual compensation of $396,233.

Try again:

This wage is equal to or greater than $187,200 per year or $90.00 per hour.

http://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/mobil ... rgeons.htm

Click the plus sign on "Pay" to see the text I quoted.

[los blancos]

If I didn't genuinely enjoy litigation, I'd already be studying to take pre-med prereqs and the MCAT, but y'all are forgetting how many doctors are miserable. CMS in some ways is worse than the tyrannical midlevel looking over your shoulder.

It's 2 years of bookwork, 2 years of sort of chill rotations (I believe), and then 4 years of residency. Supposedly the four years of med school itself are comparatively chill since it's mainly pass/fail and seems like it'd be easier, at least hours wise, than biglaw. Residency would suck, but at least there's a light at the end of the tunnel, unlike in law. A lot of doctors seem to have reasonable hours post-residency, while lawyers seem to work long hours for life.

Hell no, man. 1st and 2nd year are infinitely harder than LS (the amount of material you have to internalize is insane), studying for both steps is brutal, and 3rd year rotations bear many, many similarities with being a biglaw associate (but BONUS - you're paying tuition instead of getting paid six figures!). The debt burdens are also ridiculous. You're right about the light at the end of the tunnel, but the coding/billing aspect of the job still sucks. I think to be genuinely happy as a physician you have to not give a shit about how much you're getting paid and just work for a hospital.

(source: SO is a med student/basically every friend I have from UG went to med school)

I agree with the above. I guess my main point is that the "light at the end of the tunnel" is really all that matters. At least you have hope that, one day, your life will be pretty chill. Lawyers don't have that until they retire.

Eh, tell that to the surgery resident working i-banker hours with lives in her/his hands.

Law is definitely the more soul-destroying profession, though - I agree. You're not happy with your chill, sociable Big Fed existence tho? (I know that's out of reach of 95%+ of the profession)

[84651846190]

If I didn't genuinely enjoy litigation, I'd already be studying to take pre-med prereqs and the MCAT, but y'all are forgetting how many doctors are miserable. CMS in some ways is worse than the tyrannical midlevel looking over your shoulder.

It's 2 years of bookwork, 2 years of sort of chill rotations (I believe), and then 4 years of residency. Supposedly the four years of med school itself are comparatively chill since it's mainly pass/fail and seems like it'd be easier, at least hours wise, than biglaw. Residency would suck, but at least there's a light at the end of the tunnel, unlike in law. A lot of doctors seem to have reasonable hours post-residency, while lawyers seem to work long hours for life.

Hell no, man. 1st and 2nd year are infinitely harder than LS (the amount of material you have to internalize is insane), studying for both steps is brutal, and 3rd year rotations bear many, many similarities with being a biglaw associate (but BONUS - you're paying tuition instead of getting paid six figures!). The debt burdens are also ridiculous. You're right about the light at the end of the tunnel, but the coding/billing aspect of the job still sucks. I think to be genuinely happy as a physician you have to not give a shit about how much you're getting paid and just work for a hospital.

(source: SO is a med student/basically every friend I have from UG went to med school)

I agree with the above. I guess my main point is that the "light at the end of the tunnel" is really all that matters. At least you have hope that, one day, your life will be pretty chill. Lawyers don't have that until they retire.

Eh, tell that to the surgery resident working i-banker hours with lives in her/his hands.

Law is definitely the more soul-destroying profession, though - I agree. You're not happy with your chill, sociable Big Fed existence tho? (I know that's out of reach of 95%+ of the profession)

Brother, I'm still working pretty shitty hours. And weekends. Law sucks in every sector and at every level.

[los blancos]

Brother, I'm still working pretty shitty hours. And weekends. Law sucks in every sector and at every level.

Sorry to hear this man. Hope it eases up.

[Johann]

Brother, I'm still working pretty shitty hours. And weekends. Law sucks in every sector and at every level.

Sorry to hear this man. Hope it eases up.

its okay to mail it in now man.

[krads153]

If I didn't genuinely enjoy litigation, I'd already be studying to take pre-med prereqs and the MCAT, but y'all are forgetting how many doctors are miserable. CMS in some ways is worse than the tyrannical midlevel looking over your shoulder.

It's 2 years of bookwork, 2 years of sort of chill rotations (I believe), and then 4 years of residency. Supposedly the four years of med school itself are comparatively chill since it's mainly pass/fail and seems like it'd be easier, at least hours wise, than biglaw. Residency would suck, but at least there's a light at the end of the tunnel, unlike in law. A lot of doctors seem to have reasonable hours post-residency, while lawyers seem to work long hours for life.

Hell no, man. 1st and 2nd year are infinitely harder than LS (the amount of material you have to internalize is insane), studying for both steps is brutal, and 3rd year rotations bear many, many similarities with being a biglaw associate (but BONUS - you're paying tuition instead of getting paid six figures!). The debt burdens are also ridiculous. You're right about the light at the end of the tunnel, but the coding/billing aspect of the job still sucks. I think to be genuinely happy as a physician you have to not give a shit about how much you're getting paid and just work for a hospital.

(source: SO is a med student/basically every friend I have from UG went to med school/half my family is physicians)

Also, at least to me, there was this paradox that kept me from going to med school: the interesting specialities have absolutely brutal hours, and the specialties with good QoL are mostly boring.

My sibling in law is in MD/PHD, and basically spent on average 8 hours a weekday going to class/studying first two years for the MD. That seems pretty easy to me, at least compared to working. Apparently they're having a much harder time with the PhD portion (is contemplating dropping out of the PhD program) and it's like 300% more work than MD. I don't doubt that MD is more work than JD, but I doubt that it's as much work as biglaw (which I have been in for a few years). I barely studied in law school (given I was like extreme outlier in terms of studiousness) and I work all the time in biglaw. And PhD is apparently the hardest out of the bunch and way, way more work than MD.

I thought the step two was a joke? Isn't the step one like the bar exam, except the pass rates are like 98%?

I feel like med students complain a lot, but on average, the hours they work during the MD portion (not residency) aren't that bad. I also enjoy school more than working, so that's another thing.

Also, I don't know why people keep pointing to surgeons as an example - that's an extreme level in terms of hours. Surgeons work like the worst hours in medicine, and also get paid way more money than the average physician.

[Anonymous User]

SO is in med school, I'm an 0L about to start law. From what I've seen from him and older friends in med school, it's pretty all-consuming. First and second year he would be in classes by 8 or 9am, get home at 5 or 6, eat and do at least a few more hours of work before sleeping. The Steps 1 and 2 aren't just about passing -- they're a huge part of your residency application. So if you're looking at basically anything other than primary care, especially if you're a surgery gunner, you're working your ass off and studying for months for both Steps.

3rd year rotations are also awful -- probably the worst part of med school from what I've heard. Fourth year seems to be pretty chill though, although there's the stress of matching for residency -- a lot of students rotate away at the programs they'd like to be matched in.

It does seem though, compared to law, that there is more of a light at the end of the tunnel where in medicine you'll be making a decent amount of money and seeing more control over your hours. I think making a big deal out of comparing them is a little useless, though, because different people are going to spend varying amounts of time on the same amount of work, give varying degree of a shit about any of it, and have different goals. Gunning for a super-selective medical specialty means working your ass off all through med school and residency, and then if you are looking for chief positions/etc., you never stop gunning. An ER doc, on the other hand, has a less selective residency and basically does shift-work with four days off per week. I think you can find parallels in law at most levels.

[krads153]

^Ok, fair enough. I think I probably wouldn't give a shit since basically every MD is guaranteed a job, which is why med school would be chill for me. I'd just be aiming to pass, and it's basically impossible to fail the Step 1.

I also skipped a ton of classes in college/law school, so I don't know if going to class is that useful for me. I also took a heavy load of math classes too, so it wasn't like it was all bullshit classes. So not going to class would save me a lot of time and I'd just study on my own with the textbook and get lecture notes from someone.

I didn't graduate order of the coif, mind you, but I did well enough at a T-14.

[Anonymous User]

People really need to stop comparing med school/early doctor employment to law school/early biglaw employment.

The former is much more difficult than the latter. I love the legal profession as much as anyone, but don't delude yourself into thinking otherwise.

[Desert Fox]

[krads153]

People really need to stop comparing med school/early doctor employment to law school/early biglaw employment.

The former is much more difficult than the latter. I love the legal profession as much as anyone, but don't delude yourself into thinking otherwise.

I haven't found school at any level that hard, and I took a lot of hard science classes in undergrad. I think med students complain a lot. There's always an easier way to study than doing what everyone tells you to do (i.e., going to class is overrated, learning from professors is,imo, overrated). I think people waste a ton of time going to class. If I did everything that people told me to do in law school, I'd probably have to spend 10 hours a day alone reading and outlining. Same with stuff like the bar exam - I did like 20-30% of Barbri and focused on the important, more useful activities, and ended up getting a 90th percentile MBE score. If I had strictly follow Barbri, I would have studied like 20 hours a day for the bar exam, which would have been insane overkill.

Working on the other hand......there's just no easy way