Junior Associate At A Litigation Boutique Taking Questions Forum

[bruinfan10]

What's wrong with the credentials?
How important are local ties?

???

Those grades are too low for a KVN, Bartlit, Susman, Kellogg, maybe even for a Williams & Connolly, although calling W&C a "boutique" is kind of like calling Munger or Boies a "boutique."

Also, local ties? What do you think a lit boutique is, midlaw? I guess I can understand the confusion given the broader definition of the term, Tom Wallerstein's column on ATL, etc, but OP included the context that we're talking top 1% at a T14 (+Texas, apparently), and that it's a boutique we regularly discuss on this site. So no, OP is ostensibly not doing a midlaw AMA.

Edit: In fairness, Bartlit does pull a crazy high percentage of its roster from University of Chicago, so I guess it's a plausible question. Susman similarly is all Texas'd out, although from OP's hours estimates, lol at her being at Susman. "Local ties" just seems awful far down the crazy list of criteria these places use to pick a candidate (awesome grades, awesome clerkships, awesome prior substantive legal experience).

[nothingtosee]

What's wrong with the credentials?
How important are local ties?

???

Those grades are too low for a KVN, Bartlit, Kellogg, maybe even for a Williams & Connolly, although calling W&C a "boutique" is kind of like calling Munger or Boies a "boutique."

Also, local ties? What do you think a lit boutique is, midlaw? I guess I can understand the confusion given the broader definition of the term, Tom Wallerstein's column on ATL, etc, but OP included the context that we're talking top 1% at a T14 (+Texas, apparently), and that it's a boutique we regularly discuss on this site. So no, OP is ostensibly not doing a midlaw AMA.

Edit: Also, in fairness, Bartlit does pull a crazy high percentage of its roster from University of Chicago, so I guess it's a plausible question. It just seems awful far down the crazy list of criteria these places use to pick a candidate (awesome grades, awesome clerkships, awesome prior substantive legal experience).

Not sure why the outrage

Look at a firm like Gibbs and Bruns and 6 of 8 associates have a Texas degree.
Susman Houston is 4 of first 8 associates

[stego]

. I went to a T14 (broadly defined),

What does this mean?

It means OP went to UT because it was tied for 14th with GULC a couple of years ago.

[Anonymous User]

. I went to a T14 (broadly defined),

What does this mean?

It means OP went to UT because it was tied for 14th with GULC a couple of years ago.

Haha. You got me. I meant one of the fourteen (or fifteen, I guess) schools that people refer to as the "T14." (I was trying to avoid the practice of using T14 to refer to the schools 11 through 14.)

-- Lit Boutique Associate

[Anonymous User]

What's wrong with the credentials?
How important are local ties?

???

Those grades are too low for a KVN, Bartlit, Kellogg, maybe even for a Williams & Connolly, although calling W&C a "boutique" is kind of like calling Munger or Boies a "boutique."

Also, local ties? What do you think a lit boutique is, midlaw? I guess I can understand the confusion given the broader definition of the term, Tom Wallerstein's column on ATL, etc, but OP included the context that we're talking top 1% at a T14 (+Texas, apparently), and that it's a boutique we regularly discuss on this site. So no, OP is ostensibly not doing a midlaw AMA.

Edit: Also, in fairness, Bartlit does pull a crazy high percentage of its roster from University of Chicago, so I guess it's a plausible question. It just seems awful far down the crazy list of criteria these places use to pick a candidate (awesome grades, awesome clerkships, awesome prior substantive legal experience).

Not sure why the outrage

Look at a firm like Gibbs and Bruns and 6 of 8 associates have a Texas degree.
Susman Houston is 4 of first 8 associates

A few thoughts:
1. My firm cares very little about "ties." I don't know if it doesn't matter at all. I cannot speak to other "boutiques," but I suspect it's hard to find a sizable number of people who meet our credentials and also have strong geographic reasons for coming here.
2. I don't want to get into a fight over what constitutes a litigation boutique. We can all agree that Davis Polk, for example, is not a boutique. Similarly, we can all agree that KVN is a boutique. When I use the term "litigation boutique," I am referring to a firm that is more like KVN than like Davis Polk.
3. I agree "midlaw" refers to something different altogether.
4. A graduate with Top 10% to Top 25% grades at CCN, with a COA clerkship, has objectively great credentials. I did not mean to take anything away from that poster. We just get some really amazing candidates, that I am not sure that person would stand out based on just that alone.

--Lit Boutique Associate

[Anonymous User]

Would your firm hire anyone outside the T14? For instance, a T20 grad in the top handful of students in the class with a non-feeder COA clerkship?

[Anonymous User]

"A graduate with Top 10% to Top 25% grades at CCN, with a COA clerkship, has objectively great credentials."

What about Berkeley?

[Anonymous User]

Would your firm hire anyone outside the T14? For instance, a T20 grad in the top handful of students in the class with a non-feeder COA clerkship?

I'm at a so-called elite litigation boutique. The firm will consider applications from grads from the T20 and the local T1, but the applicant must be at the top of the class to have a shot. And by "top of the class," I mean the #1 student. I've seen the firm dip as low as the #3 student for a non-T14, but that applicant had a clerkship with a feeder judge.

[rpupkin]

"A graduate with Top 10% to Top 25% grades at CCN, with a COA clerkship, has objectively great credentials."

What about Berkeley?

The OP already answered this:

For the purposes of my firm, besides HYS, [the distinctions within the T14] don't matter. You need top grades from all of these schools.

This is consistent with my experience as well.

[Anonymous User]

A graduate with Top 10% to Top 25% grades at CCN, with a COA clerkship, has objectively great credentials. I did not mean to take anything away from that poster.

No offense taken at all. That's definitely in line with everything else I've heard.

I don't want to get into a fight over what constitutes a litigation boutique. We can all agree that Davis Polk, for example, is not a boutique. Similarly, we can all agree that KVN is a boutique. When I use the term "litigation boutique," I am referring to a firm that is more like KVN than like Davis Polk.

Here's a more clear version of my question: For someone with my credentials (so, not in the ballpark of the tip-top boutiques) are there other boutiques that are worth looking at? I'm currently headed to a firm that is solidly on the "like Davis Polk" side of the spectrum, and I love my firm aside from the inherent drawbacks to a firm of that size. Do you think there are firms on the "like KVN" side that are worth serious consideration as a place to start a litigation career?

(My sense from TLS is that there are the tip-top boutiques, and the more midlaw boutiques and not a whole lot in between. Thus, I've kind of thought that I'd be better off staying with a big firm, since the best boutiques are out of reach. But that might just be the TLS hivemind, so I'd love to hear if there are some great-but-not-unreachable boutiques that I should be looking at.)

Thanks again for your perspective.

[Anonymous User]

Would your firm hire anyone outside the T14? For instance, a T20 grad in the top handful of students in the class with a non-feeder COA clerkship?

I'm at a so-called elite litigation boutique. The firm will consider applications from grads from the T20 and the local T1, but the applicant must be at the top of the class to have a shot. And by "top of the class," I mean the #1 student. I've seen the firm dip as low as the #3 student for a non-T14, but that applicant had a clerkship with a feeder judge.

Good to know, thanks. I graduated at #5, and my COA judge is decidedly non-feeder, so I guess I'm out of luck.

[Anonymous User]

Could you elaborate on qualifications from HYS?

[Anonymous User]

[Not OP:] I don't know if we are calling Munger and Irell boutiques, but if you're in the top 10-20% of your class at one of CCN (I know it's extremely difficult to parse this out w/o calculated GPAs) with a COA clerkship, you're competitive IME. Especially if you're on CLR or something like that. Obviously there will be other stellar candidates, but you would get consideration as a lateral and/or post-clerkship.

For Susman or Keker, maybe not, I'm not sure. However, these firms will look at laterals with clerkship experience from PW/DPW/Cravath, and while your grades will always be important, they won't carry quite the same burning import a few years down the road as they did at 2L OCI.

Could you elaborate on qualifications from HYS?

It's going to be a little different since H and S are comparable but Y is not, strictly from a grades perspective.

[Anonymous User]

Would your firm hire anyone outside the T14? For instance, a T20 grad in the top handful of students in the class with a non-feeder COA clerkship?

I'm at a so-called elite litigation boutique. The firm will consider applications from grads from the T20 and the local T1, but the applicant must be at the top of the class to have a shot. And by "top of the class," I mean the #1 student. I've seen the firm dip as low as the #3 student for a non-T14, but that applicant had a clerkship with a feeder judge.

Good to know, thanks. I graduated at #5, and my COA judge is decidedly non-feeder, so I guess I'm out of luck.

This sounds about right for us too. But I can't speak for all litigation boutiques. And, with those grades, if you are interested, you should certainly feel free to apply broadly.

--Lit Boutique Associate

[Anonymous User]

A graduate with Top 10% to Top 25% grades at CCN, with a COA clerkship, has objectively great credentials. I did not mean to take anything away from that poster.

No offense taken at all. That's definitely in line with everything else I've heard.

I don't want to get into a fight over what constitutes a litigation boutique. We can all agree that Davis Polk, for example, is not a boutique. Similarly, we can all agree that KVN is a boutique. When I use the term "litigation boutique," I am referring to a firm that is more like KVN than like Davis Polk.

Here's a more clear version of my question: For someone with my credentials (so, not in the ballpark of the tip-top boutiques) are there other boutiques that are worth looking at? I'm currently headed to a firm that is solidly on the "like Davis Polk" side of the spectrum, and I love my firm aside from the inherent drawbacks to a firm of that size. Do you think there are firms on the "like KVN" side that are worth serious consideration as a place to start a litigation career?

(My sense from TLS is that there are the tip-top boutiques, and the more midlaw boutiques and not a whole lot in between. Thus, I've kind of thought that I'd be better off staying with a big firm, since the best boutiques are out of reach. But that might just be the TLS hivemind, so I'd love to hear if there are some great-but-not-unreachable boutiques that I should be looking at.)

Thanks again for your perspective.

I certainly think there are many "firms on the like KVN side" that are worth serious consideration as a place to start a litigation career. I think if you search TLS you will find many discussions of the more well-known ones. I have discussed some of the objective advantages of starting your career at such a place. But, to summarize again, I think if you really want to develop real litigation skills -- both written and oral advocacy -- you are likely better off at one of these places. (Again, I am sure there are exceptions to this.)

I do not think you should reject yourself from these positions. I think you have some shot at some of these places (especially if you were on law review, firms think highly of your Judge, you have valuable work experience, or you have connections at the firms you are applying to). They do not all require Supreme Court clerk level (or near that level) credentials. If you are interested in these types of firms, you should apply broadly. The timing is variable: usually clerks apply between October and March of their clerkship year. You will need to ask your judge if this is okay and see what, if any, time your judge gives you off for interviews. Most judges are understanding about this. And, generally, if you have applied at a firm that appears before your court, you will probably need to recuse yourself from any involvement in that case. It does not take much time or effort to apply.

With all that said, I think fit matters. If you truly like the partners or other senior associates you summered with, or have other good reasons to believe you will fit in well at your current firm, I can definitely see that as a reason to not leave. And there may be other reasons you might not want to leave. But, it is very unlikely your current firm will know or care that you are interviewing with other firms during your clerkship year. Again, I see little downside in applying.

--Lit Boutique Associate

[Anonymous User]

[Not OP:] I don't know if we are calling Munger and Irell boutiques, but if you're in the top 10-20% of your class at one of CCN (I know it's extremely difficult to parse this out w/o calculated GPAs) with a COA clerkship, you're competitive IME. Especially if you're on CLR or something like that. Obviously there will be other stellar candidates, but you would get consideration as a lateral and/or post-clerkship.

For Susman or Keker, maybe not, I'm not sure. However, these firms will look at laterals with clerkship experience from PW/DPW/Cravath, and while your grades will always be important, they won't carry quite the same burning import a few years down the road as they did at 2L OCI.

Could you elaborate on qualifications from HYS?

It's going to be a little different since H and S are comparable but Y is not, strictly from a grades perspective.

I certainly welcome other associates at litigation boutiques to share their thoughts. I do not believe I can contribute much to the exact grade cutoffs for various firms at various schools.

--Lit Boutique Associate

[Anonymous User]

[Not OP]

I am also a junior associate at a litigation boutique that shares many aspects of work with firms like KVN, Kellogg Huber, Susman, etc.. but doesn't have the same degree of name recognition outside of our market/areas of practice. I wanted to chime in to say that there are definitely firms that offer very high quality work and experiences but that don't restrict themselves to the #1 student at well ranked schools X-Y and the top 10% of top ranked schools A-D.

We have very high standards for hiring when it comes to grades, but there is little in the way of hard cutoffs. If you had relevant work experience, particular language skills that fit some of our international clients, or a recommendation from someone we think highly of that could be all that is needed to make you more attractive than the person who is 5 or even 20 spots higher in the class rankings than you were. We do even consider connections to business development opportunities (*gasp*) because this kind of thing can be relevant if the connections are deep enough to continue to be meaningful when you are a senior associate or partner. Grades do matter quite a bit when you have fewer of these distinguishing factors (we have a history with feeder judges too), but it's just not everything.

Bottom line is that if you think a boutique environment is something attractive to you, don't rule it out because your profile doesn't fit the pattern of the last few hires on the firm's website. A hiring decision for a firm with 100 or fewer attorneys is a big deal and it will be made on a number of factors. Give it a shot and see whether you get any offers that you like.

[Anonymous User]

relevant work experience, particular language skills that fit some of our international clients, or a recommendation from someone we think highly of

These would all be plus factors for us too and help us distinguish between individuals with top grades and law review. That plus doing well in our interview process.

--Lit Boutique Associate

[Anonymous User]

Any more questions? I have got some time today.

--Lit Boutique Associate

[nothingtosee]

Any more questions? I have got some time today.

--Lit Boutique Associate

What's the parental leave situation like?
Do they say X weeks but make it clear you should be back after 4?

[foundingfather]

what do you like most about being a litigator?

i'm assuming you like what you do. if you'd like to expand on this this i'd be happy to read your response

[Anonymous User]

What's the parental leave situation like?
Do they say X weeks but make it clear you should be back after 4?

We have a generous paternal leave policy and there is absolutely no expectation that you must return within four weeks. I would think that's true at all big law firms too; doesn't the FMLA disallow what you are suggesting?

--Lit Boutique Associate

[Anonymous User]

what do you like most about being a litigator?

I knew early on I wanted to do litigation and have enjoyed it thus far.

Litigation gives you a unique, inside perspective of your clients’ businesses and industries that would be hard to get elsewhere. I enjoy that. In the short time I have been practicing, I have already gained a deep understanding and appreciation for several different industries and businesses.

I also enjoy thinking through case strategy. I liked that about clerking too. It can be challenging to map out all of the possibilities a case presents, decide what outcome the law requires, and then figure out the best way to resolve the case. The cases I am on now require just as much strategy, if not more, and the same type of creative, resourceful thinking. Of course, as an associate, I am not making these critical decisions. But I still enjoy that aspect.

Finally, I enjoy reading and writing. I do want to develop my other skills but, for now, I do not mind spending most of my time writing.

--Lit Boutique Associate

[foundingfather]

that does sound pretty cool. thank you. i like reading and writing too. hopefully i'll be interviewing for a similar position soon