Is prestige of law firm really worth it?

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BiglawAssociate
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Re: Is prestige of law firm really worth it?

Postby BiglawAssociate » Sat Jun 20, 2015 1:29 am

BigZuck wrote:Johann, BiglawAss, and greekdebt just might be too much mental illness for one thread to handle

This thread is reaching a critical mass or singularity or something


So telling the truth about the practice of law is considered "mental illness"?

you're in law school right? Law school was a JOKE compared to practicing.

greekdebtcrisis
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Re: Is prestige of law firm really worth it?

Postby greekdebtcrisis » Sat Jun 20, 2015 2:13 am

BigZuck wrote:Johann, BiglawAss, and greekdebt just might be too much mental illness for one thread to handle

This thread is reaching a critical mass or singularity or something


What the hell does your comment even mean? Are you in biglaw yet? If so, can you share your experiences? As a first year or second year or even third year, can you please explain what meaningful work you've done? If you're a mid lvl or above, can you please share your experience of your first three years and would you happily do those three years over? I'm honestly looking for some transactional associate in their first to third year to tell me that they love their job and that they'd choose that job over any other job requiring their background that pays more. If so, please tell me the firm so I can apply and reap the benefits of making a difference in the world. Sorry I am tired and am just shocked with the inane commentary (the "stfu" attitude). If you give me a couple of bullet points telling me why biglaw is such a great option for transactional work, I'd be much more thoughtful in how I digest the response.

All I am asking in this forum is to give some explanation as to the prestige of working in transactional biglaw. If there is a decent argument, please share and explain why you'd choose it over any other job that pays the same or more with the same job security.

hdunlop
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Re: Is prestige of law firm really worth it?

Postby hdunlop » Sat Jun 20, 2015 3:26 am

As a first to third year transactional attorney, I love my job and I'd choose that job over any other job requiring my background that pays more. The firm is strawman & shittytroll LLP.

greekdebtcrisis
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Re: Is prestige of law firm really worth it?

Postby greekdebtcrisis » Sat Jun 20, 2015 3:35 am

hdunlop wrote:As a first to third year transactional attorney, I love my job and I'd choose that job over any other job requiring my background that pays more. The firm is strawman & shittytroll LLP.


Again, what a wonderful comment. It adds so much to the discussion.

Come on people, if you think transactional biglaw is the way to go, say why. Don't just pop your head in the sand and condemn those who question a particular path. I'm actually posting to figure out why one would pursue transactional biglaw instead of a non-legal job that pays more, is just as secure, etc. I feel like I'm repeating myself a lot.

What I find funny is that not a single post has yet told me the benefits of transactional biglaw for the first couple of years. Let's do this again. Tell me, how do you benefit the world? What difference do you make? Do you enjoy your work? If so, why? Would you continue biglaw of you were given an exit option that paid more? Or do you think that the prestige of biglaw matters? If so, to whom?

hdunlop
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Re: Is prestige of law firm really worth it?

Postby hdunlop » Sat Jun 20, 2015 3:40 am

Just create an alt and argue it yourself since you want your words in someone else's mouth so bad

greekdebtcrisis
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Re: Is prestige of law firm really worth it?

Postby greekdebtcrisis » Sat Jun 20, 2015 3:48 am

hdunlop wrote:Just create an alt and argue it yourself since you want your words in someone else's mouth so bad


Umm ok.... I mean can you actually contribute to this thread or are you just going to put me down? Please give a substantive comment.

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First Offense
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Re: Is prestige of law firm really worth it?

Postby First Offense » Sat Jun 20, 2015 7:55 am

greekdebtcrisis wrote:
hdunlop wrote:Just create an alt and argue it yourself since you want your words in someone else's mouth so bad


Umm ok.... I mean can you actually contribute to this thread or are you just going to put me down? Please give a substantive comment.

Fuck the haters. These bitches just be mad cuz they gonna b working 4 u instead of with u.

hdunlop
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Re: Is prestige of law firm really worth it?

Postby hdunlop » Sat Jun 20, 2015 9:33 am

Yeah I'm mostly interested in put downs

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: Is prestige of law firm really worth it?

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Sat Jun 20, 2015 10:20 am

OP why do you think it's easy for people to get high level business jobs out of law school?

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Cobretti
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Re: Is prestige of law firm really worth it?

Postby Cobretti » Sat Jun 20, 2015 10:32 am

BigZuck wrote:Johann, BiglawAss, and greekdebt just might be too much mental illness for one thread to handle

This thread is reaching a critical mass or singularity or something

They probably have just the right amount for shitty reality TV though. We should do a Real World: TLS with these guys and use the proceeds to pay off student loans for those of us moronic enough to not have married into money as a financing strategy for law school.
Last edited by Cobretti on Sat Jun 20, 2015 10:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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BiglawAssociate
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Re: Is prestige of law firm really worth it?

Postby BiglawAssociate » Sat Jun 20, 2015 10:32 am

greekdebtcrisis wrote:
BigZuck wrote:Johann, BiglawAss, and greekdebt just might be too much mental illness for one thread to handle

This thread is reaching a critical mass or singularity or something


What the hell does your comment even mean? Are you in biglaw yet? If so, can you share your experiences? As a first year or second year or even third year, can you please explain what meaningful work you've done? If you're a mid lvl or above, can you please share your experience of your first three years and would you happily do those three years over? I'm honestly looking for some transactional associate in their first to third year to tell me that they love their job and that they'd choose that job over any other job requiring their background that pays more. If so, please tell me the firm so I can apply and reap the benefits of making a difference in the world. Sorry I am tired and am just shocked with the inane commentary (the "stfu" attitude). If you give me a couple of bullet points telling me why biglaw is such a great option for transactional work, I'd be much more thoughtful in how I digest the response.

All I am asking in this forum is to give some explanation as to the prestige of working in transactional biglaw. If there is a decent argument, please share and explain why you'd choose it over any other job that pays the same or more with the same job security.


I'm pretty sure Big Zuck is still in law school, and hence, has never practiced and doesn't know anything.

I don't think any biglaw lawyers "love" their job, except maybe some partners. I'm not sure that doing corporate work on the business side for similar money would be that much better though - office jobs with long hours are still office jobs with long hours. The business side does, however, maybe have more exit options that biglaw doesn't have. Legal skills just aren't that transferable outside the industry. So go for whatever job has better long term prospects.

There is no "prestige" in doing any job IMO - so I'm not sure why this is a question. Also who gives a shit what others think - what matters in life is MONEY $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. That's the ultimate prestige, but in more practical sense, you can buy freedom/free time/do whatever you want with money. "Prestige" is intangible and doesn't mean anything.

I'd rather be rich like Kim Kardashian, who is known for basically doing nothing and is not prestigious or respected, with $200 million dollars, rather than some fool making shit money with "prestige."

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El Pollito
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Re: Is prestige of law firm really worth it?

Postby El Pollito » Sat Jun 20, 2015 10:57 am

The work is fine. The money is worth it to me.

BigZuck
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Re: Is prestige of law firm really worth it?

Postby BigZuck » Sat Jun 20, 2015 12:34 pm

Yeah, I'm definitely not qualified to comment on the real life of real, live transactional associates

My point was that the OP hears and argues with voices in his head. And then it was kind of funny when Tweedle-Dee and Tweedle-Numb Nuts came along to share their thoughts in short order.

I don't actually dislike Huey, he just needs to be DaRascaled into his own pen.

BiglawAssociate and greekdebt have gotta go though, enough is enough and it's not even entertaining.

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Re: Is prestige of law firm really worth it?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Jun 20, 2015 12:51 pm

greekdebtcrisis wrote:There must be so many people skimming these posts who are 1st or 2nd year associates and are hating life right now. I actually bet some 3rd years who did a dist and app clerkships hate their lives as biglaw is billing clients at 3rd year rates for doc review lol.

There should be a thread for "fuck biglaw". I haven't seen a single post that justifies working as a transactional associate (unless you're wachtell but you can still beat that bonus + salary straight out of law school if you do things right).

Should this be on jd underground?

Have you actually read anything on this site? There are tons of threads that basically say "fuck biglaw." There are plenty of biglaw associates who talk about what sucks about it. You're not offering anything novel by saying biglaw sucks.

The alternatives you're offering, though, are non-legal ones. Some people want to be lawyers. I already explained some reasons why people choose biglaw, but for some reason you keep responding "but why doesn't everyone agree that what I want to do is the best thing to do?"

DJ JD
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Re: Is prestige of law firm really worth it?

Postby DJ JD » Sat Jun 20, 2015 1:32 pm

greekdebtcrisis wrote:I'm honestly looking for some transactional associate in their first to third year to tell me that they love their job and that they'd choose that job over any other job requiring their background that pays more.


I don't think most, if anyone, would take big law over another job that simply pays the same more (all else being equal), but how on earth does the background of a would be transactional associate (a liberal arts degree, a high-pain tolerance, enough debt to shackle one to the firm long enough for them to be profitable, and a pulse) qualify one for any of these non-legal careers.

You really expect anyone here to believe that your run of the mill K-JD, TFA alum, or summer backpacker, with no more than one year of law school and one summer of "legal experience" (pre-OCI), is going to be competitive for positions that often require a specific background and experience, if not an MBA as well? Does the conversation go somewhere along the lines of, "Hey, I know you've never looked at a balance sheet before, but we're really impressed with the practical and valuable skills you learned as a law student, so we'll give you 190K starting out... sounds agreeable?"

Now, if you're talking about lateral hiring, it's a little bit different, but still... "Hey, I know you've done doc review and occasionally copied and pasted statutes... and you can use excel now... we'll give you 190K starting out... sounds agreeable?"

juzam_djinn
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Re: Is prestige of law firm really worth it?

Postby juzam_djinn » Sat Jun 20, 2015 1:43 pm

there's a pattern to the people who come on this board and start trying to justify their non-law career paths to a bunch of random readers, under the guise of "doing everyone a favor" by educating them about the wonders of their alternative careers or by proving that biglaw sucks badly. I'm not going to dig up the other threads, but people who have read enough know what I am talking about

they all fall into the same category- Went to a T14 and got a V50-100 offer, got some finance-related or consulting gig, and now they want validation. their job might "pay more" but they realize that nobody in their class seems to care. The ones that give a bit of a shit are the ones that always wanted to do business but couldn't find a way in so they went to LS, and even they accord more prestige to the top of the class SCOTUS type bros/gals than the non-law people. The rest of the people in the class couldn't care less that someone decided not to become a lawyer. So after finishing median in their class and squeezing out a biglaw job offer, the people seeking validation now want to claim that they're in a different playing field entirely by getting a non-law job. :roll:

just fyi, It's pretty pathetic when these people throw around their v50-100 offer as if it has some weight. It's obvious in the context that they're not noting it to inform but rather to brag...just lol @ humblebragging about that

hiima3L
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Re: Is prestige of law firm really worth it?

Postby hiima3L » Sat Jun 20, 2015 1:57 pm

LJL at this thread.

Pro Brono
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Re: Is prestige of law firm really worth it?

Postby Pro Brono » Sat Jun 20, 2015 2:03 pm

Have you considered that the vast majority of people who go to law school don't have the credentials to get jobs in PE/HF/IB? If you do, and want to go into one of those jobs eventually anyway, why would you go to law school in the first place? So I think the better question is, why the fuck did you waste money and three years of your life on law school to end up in a job you were qualified for without doing so?

The question you're trying to ask, but can't formulate with your head so far up your own ass, is why everyone didn't go to a strong undergrad school and major in finance.

westphillybandr
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Re: Is prestige of law firm really worth it?

Postby westphillybandr » Sat Jun 20, 2015 2:35 pm

Pro Brono wrote:Have you considered that the vast majority of people who go to law school don't have the credentials to get jobs in PE/HF/IB? If you do, and want to go into one of those jobs eventually anyway, why would you go to law school in the first place? So I think the better question is, why the fuck did you waste money and three years of your life on law school to end up in a job you were qualified for without doing so?

The question you're trying to ask, but can't formulate with your head so far up your own ass, is why everyone didn't go to a strong undergrad school and major in finance.


Yep. Or if you didn't have the credentials to begin with why didn't you plan your life better and put yourself into a position to get this job out of college? Instead you've invested time and money into getting a degree that you will not be using.

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: Is prestige of law firm really worth it?

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Sat Jun 20, 2015 3:27 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
greekdebtcrisis wrote:There must be so many people skimming these posts who are 1st or 2nd year associates and are hating life right now. I actually bet some 3rd years who did a dist and app clerkships hate their lives as biglaw is billing clients at 3rd year rates for doc review lol.

There should be a thread for "fuck biglaw". I haven't seen a single post that justifies working as a transactional associate (unless you're wachtell but you can still beat that bonus + salary straight out of law school if you do things right).

Should this be on jd underground?

Have you actually read anything on this site? There are tons of threads that basically say "fuck biglaw." There are plenty of biglaw associates who talk about what sucks about it. You're not offering anything novel by saying biglaw sucks.

The alternatives you're offering, though, are non-legal ones. Some people want to be lawyers. I already explained some reasons why people choose biglaw, but for some reason you keep responding "but why doesn't everyone agree that what I want to do is the best thing to do?"

Also I'm sure this guy's lucrative finance job or whatever will definitely be endlessly fascinating and stress-free as opposed to those sad biglaw associates.

greekdebtcrisis
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Re: Is prestige of law firm really worth it?

Postby greekdebtcrisis » Sat Jun 20, 2015 5:49 pm

dixiecupdrinking wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
greekdebtcrisis wrote:There must be so many people skimming these posts who are 1st or 2nd year associates and are hating life right now. I actually bet some 3rd years who did a dist and app clerkships hate their lives as biglaw is billing clients at 3rd year rates for doc review lol.

There should be a thread for "fuck biglaw". I haven't seen a single post that justifies working as a transactional associate (unless you're wachtell but you can still beat that bonus + salary straight out of law school if you do things right).

Should this be on jd underground?

Have you actually read anything on this site? There are tons of threads that basically say "fuck biglaw." There are plenty of biglaw associates who talk about what sucks about it. You're not offering anything novel by saying biglaw sucks.

The alternatives you're offering, though, are non-legal ones. Some people want to be lawyers. I already explained some reasons why people choose biglaw, but for some reason you keep responding "but why doesn't everyone agree that what I want to do is the best thing to do?"

Also I'm sure this guy's lucrative finance job or whatever will definitely be endlessly fascinating and stress-free as opposed to those sad biglaw associates.


No it won't be stress free. Very few jobs that pay good salaries are stress free. I do think however if given the option in working 60-100 hour weeks (not billable necessarily but certainly at least at-the-office hours), I'd choose the job that is hopefully more satisfying and definitely switch if the pay is higher. But as I keep asking in this forum and it seems that we are all coming to an agreement, there is little prestige in working in biglaw if you compare it to a non-legal job that pays more. The best anecdotal evidence I have is that associates end up going to non-legal after several years of legal and could have and should have done that earlier.

The points below don't address my original question about biglaw prestige but they are my honest responses:

Re: the folks who say "what qualifications do these k-jds etc have". That's the point, if you don't try you won't get it. K-jd can easily go into consulting, banking, etc if they try hard enough. I know several that did and they're going to great banks in great groups and/or consulting firms. An example of one firm that easily pays more than law firm salaries is promontory group. That's perhaps the one firm that doesn't even require much hustling and takes a ton of recent grads without any experience. You'll definitely make more than most biglaw first year associates exceptions might be the boutique firms and wachtell.

Re: the lawyer comment. That's just sounds like you're selling yourself short given all that is stacked
against you to be a successful transactional attorney eg difficulty of partnership track, etc. Litigation is a different kettle of fish and commendable--in fact there is little competition to replace it eg arbitration. But transactional is very tedious and the work a transactional attorney does at least for the first couple of years is more paper pushing and editing than anything else. If you're interested in transactional, you should for example look instead into distressed debt funds to use your legal knowledge as your strength. If you're good enough for example to get into wachtell, you'd be an idiot not to leverage that to go to better places. If you ask some wachtell associates, they don't have a 100% retention rate of their summer class. Many of the kids who went there as summers go elsewhere on the business side.

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First Offense
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Re: Is prestige of law firm really worth it?

Postby First Offense » Sat Jun 20, 2015 6:18 pm

You're a cunt.

greekdebtcrisis
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Re: Is prestige of law firm really worth it?

Postby greekdebtcrisis » Sat Jun 20, 2015 6:27 pm

juzam_djinn wrote:there's a pattern to the people who come on this board and start trying to justify their non-law career paths to a bunch of random readers, under the guise of "doing everyone a favor" by educating them about the wonders of their alternative careers or by proving that biglaw sucks badly. I'm not going to dig up the other threads, but people who have read enough know what I am talking about

they all fall into the same category- Went to a T14 and got a V50-100 offer, got some finance-related or consulting gig, and now they want validation. their job might "pay more" but they realize that nobody in their class seems to care. The ones that give a bit of a shit are the ones that always wanted to do business but couldn't find a way in so they went to LS, and even they accord more prestige to the top of the class SCOTUS type bros/gals than the non-law people. The rest of the people in the class couldn't care less that someone decided not to become a lawyer. So after finishing median in their class and squeezing out a biglaw job offer, the people seeking validation now want to claim that they're in a different playing field entirely by getting a non-law job. :roll:

just fyi, It's pretty pathetic when these people throw around their v50-100 offer as if it has some weight. It's obvious in the context that they're not noting it to inform but rather to brag...just lol @ humblebragging about that


I started out broadly for a reason. Anyway, you're just wrong with a lot of points you state. A ton of people finish top of their class (if they've a ranking), and do other things. An example that you and I can both relate to would be Lat of atl, a guy who did very well and went to a good firm and clerked but decided that that wasn't his calling.

As for the v50-v100 comment. I don't even think v10, v5, or v1 make much of a difference in how much weight they carry. If you've worked in biglaw, you'll know that that is the case when you try to move out of it. Who cares if you went to cravath or to Simpson or to regional firms...I don't see what difference it would make when applying eventually to non-legal from your transactional position. In the business community on the other hand it matters whether you worked at MBB or GS as opposed to the lesser ranked firms.

As for your scotus comment, I guess it's cool if that's what you want. Do I think they are different than a kid who got all As or who almost failed out of law school and each of which pursued something else, not really. I've met enough to know that clerking is less meritocratic than one would hope. Scotus is even less respected in the legal market these days. In academic circles, it used to be the case that scotus was enough to get you into a t-14 straight out, today no top law school would consider taking a scotus clerk straight out without several publications.

Personally I respect those who go into public interest or govt, as that is where talented lawyers are needed most. You also learn a lot and might make a difference in those jobs. Biglaw is just a cruddy way to help pay off loans but it shouldn't be pursued for a long time for those who plan on a career in business.

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UnicornHunter
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Re: Is prestige of law firm really worth it?

Postby UnicornHunter » Sat Jun 20, 2015 6:28 pm

greekdebtcrisis wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
greekdebtcrisis wrote:There must be so many people skimming these posts who are 1st or 2nd year associates and are hating life right now. I actually bet some 3rd years who did a dist and app clerkships hate their lives as biglaw is billing clients at 3rd year rates for doc review lol.

There should be a thread for "fuck biglaw". I haven't seen a single post that justifies working as a transactional associate (unless you're wachtell but you can still beat that bonus + salary straight out of law school if you do things right).

Should this be on jd underground?

Have you actually read anything on this site? There are tons of threads that basically say "fuck biglaw." There are plenty of biglaw associates who talk about what sucks about it. You're not offering anything novel by saying biglaw sucks.

The alternatives you're offering, though, are non-legal ones. Some people want to be lawyers. I already explained some reasons why people choose biglaw, but for some reason you keep responding "but why doesn't everyone agree that what I want to do is the best thing to do?"

Also I'm sure this guy's lucrative finance job or whatever will definitely be endlessly fascinating and stress-free as opposed to those sad biglaw associates.


No it won't be stress free. Very few jobs that pay good salaries are stress free. I do think however if given the option in working 60-100 hour weeks (not billable necessarily but certainly at least at-the-office hours), I'd choose the job that is hopefully more satisfying and definitely switch if the pay is higher. But as I keep asking in this forum and it seems that we are all coming to an agreement, there is little prestige in working in biglaw if you compare it to a non-legal job that pays more. The best anecdotal evidence I have is that associates end up going to non-legal after several years of legal and could have and should have done that earlier.

The points below don't address my original question about biglaw prestige but they are my honest responses:

Re: the folks who say "what qualifications do these k-jds etc have". That's the point, if you don't try you won't get it. K-jd can easily go into consulting, banking, etc if they try hard enough. I know several that did and they're going to great banks in great groups and/or consulting firms. An example of one firm that easily pays more than law firm salaries is promontory group. That's perhaps the one firm that doesn't even require much hustling and takes a ton of recent grads without any experience. You'll definitely make more than most biglaw first year associates exceptions might be the boutique firms and wachtell.

Re: the lawyer comment. That's just sounds like you're selling yourself short given all that is stacked
against you to be a successful transactional attorney eg difficulty of partnership track, etc. Litigation is a different kettle of fish and commendable--in fact there is little competition to replace it eg arbitration. But transactional is very tedious and the work a transactional attorney does at least for the first couple of years is more paper pushing and editing than anything else. If you're interested in transactional, you should for example look instead into distressed debt funds to use your legal knowledge as your strength. If you're good enough for example to get into wachtell, you'd be an idiot not to leverage that to go to better places. If you ask some wachtell associates, they don't have a 100% retention rate of their summer class. Many of the kids who went there as summers go elsewhere on the business side.


No it has nothing to do with prestige, you fucking idiot. There's no prestige difference between working at JP Morgan and working at Wachtell, or if there is... it doesn't cut in favor of being a lawyer.

HOWEVER:

a: As a law student, it's much easier to get hired as a lawyer than it is to get hired as an iBanker/consultant/whatever else you're suggesting (really not clear what you have in mind here).

b: Even if the partnership track is unlikely, many of these transactional attorney positions at firms will lead to in-house work, as an attorney, down the road. Once you go into a non-legal field, that ship has basically sailed.

greekdebtcrisis
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Re: Is prestige of law firm really worth it?

Postby greekdebtcrisis » Sat Jun 20, 2015 6:30 pm

First Offense wrote:You're a cunt.


Thank you. Did you feel good posting this?




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