HLS EIP 2015

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hlsperson1111
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Re: HLS EIP 2015

Postby hlsperson1111 » Tue Jul 21, 2015 5:53 pm

KaNa1986 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:To add some numbers to the speculation:

Of full time (so, not summer) associates who graduated from HLS at each firm currently, the following is the number there were on HLR:

MTO: 3/10
W&C: 5/17
Susman: 0/5
KVN: 2/4

Frankly, those numbers are kind of shocking to me. I wonder where all the HLR people go.
Also, again, not the same as asking about summers. From experience, I know that HLR people tend to do well at EIP.

(NB: If they left it off their firm profile, I wouldn't have seen it. May also have miscounted, though I tried to be accurate.)


From what year? Those numbers seem way too low for the sheer number of associates from Harvard at those firms. Many recent graduates who summered at MTO/W&C/Susman are currently at their clerkships, and therefore wouldn't be reflected on the firm page. Several (I believe 3) of the MTO summers this year are on HLR. Of course it's far from a requirement though.


These are all the current associates at these firms that appeared on their website.
Obviously the associates currently clerking aren't counted, but all the former clerks who returned are (and you'd expect the average for the past seven or so years--the time between coming back from a clerkship and making partner--to be relatively consistent with what will happen to the current clerks).
Again, it's quite possible that some people didn't list HLR on their firm profile (though at Susman, everybody listed a different journal).

And yeah, many (most?) of the MTO, W&C, etc. summers in the current summer class are definitely on HLR.
I'm just curious what happens to them afterwards since they seem not to go back to these firms in particularly large numbers.



A lot of HLR and top 15% students go to Cravath/Wachtell/S&C in New York, even though people on this board tend to deny that top students want NYC biglaw. I also know HLR people working at non-V5 firms in New York and other firms across the country.


Covington, Wilmer, Jenner, Sidley, Jones Day, Gibson, and other elite/selective biglaw shops in DC are also a popular landing spot for HLR folk.

Anonymous User
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Re: HLS EIP 2015

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jul 21, 2015 6:02 pm

KaNa1986 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:To add some numbers to the speculation:

Of full time (so, not summer) associates who graduated from HLS at each firm currently, the following is the number there were on HLR:

MTO: 3/10
W&C: 5/17
Susman: 0/5
KVN: 2/4

Frankly, those numbers are kind of shocking to me. I wonder where all the HLR people go.
Also, again, not the same as asking about summers. From experience, I know that HLR people tend to do well at EIP.

(NB: If they left it off their firm profile, I wouldn't have seen it. May also have miscounted, though I tried to be accurate.)


From what year? Those numbers seem way too low for the sheer number of associates from Harvard at those firms. Many recent graduates who summered at MTO/W&C/Susman are currently at their clerkships, and therefore wouldn't be reflected on the firm page. Several (I believe 3) of the MTO summers this year are on HLR. Of course it's far from a requirement though.


These are all the current associates at these firms that appeared on their website.
Obviously the associates currently clerking aren't counted, but all the former clerks who returned are (and you'd expect the average for the past seven or so years--the time between coming back from a clerkship and making partner--to be relatively consistent with what will happen to the current clerks).
Again, it's quite possible that some people didn't list HLR on their firm profile (though at Susman, everybody listed a different journal).

And yeah, many (most?) of the MTO, W&C, etc. summers in the current summer class are definitely on HLR.
I'm just curious what happens to them afterwards since they seem not to go back to these firms in particularly large numbers.



A lot of HLR and top 15% students go to Cravath/Wachtell/S&C in New York, even though people on this board tend to deny that top students want NYC biglaw. I also know HLR people working at non-V5 firms in New York and other firms across the country.


FWIW I was on HLR and didn't think it made any critical difference in my job search -- it was a nice resume item that was a talking point during interviews ("Oh how's law review work going?") but beyond that I didn't really feel like my outcomes were dramatically different than they otherwise would have been given my grades/relative ability to not seem like a reptile for 20-minute stretches.

In general HLR people go pretty much where you'd expect any group of HLS students whose grades are somewhat higher than average go. The plurality go to good firms in NY and DC (DC being somewhat overrepresented b/c HLR membership tends to coincide with being more interested in public-law litigation than deals work or commercial/securities litigation). In DC, Gibson, Wilmer, A&P, Covington, and W&C tend to get pretty good coverage. In NY it's more of a mix, with CSM, S&C, WLRK, and a smattering of your huge top-15 shops usually having at least one and sometimes several people. (For both markets those are literally off-the-top-of-my-head lists.)

Others go to whatever the good firms in their home markets are. A few go to elite boutiques, but elite boutique hiring isn't particularly different from regular hiring -- HLR is a nice talking point but won't make much difference if you don't have both exceptionally good grades and exceptional fit with the firm culture. Quite a few people do public interest work, continue Ph.D. work, or similar.

In conclusion I think people on this thread are dramatically overestimating the "HLR effect" on EIP hiring.

hls314159
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Re: HLS EIP 2015

Postby hls314159 » Tue Jul 21, 2015 11:17 pm

How's this for a bid list? 2 DS's, 4 H's, 4 P's. DC firms only. Secondary journal, but not HLR.

Sullivan & Cromwell
Winston & Strawn
Vinson & Elkins
Wiley Rein
Mayer Brown
Hogan Lovells
Sidley Austin
Jones Day
Arnold & Porter
Latham & Watkins
Gibson, Dunn
Kirkland & Ellis
WilmerHale
Williams & Connoly
Steptoe & Johnson
Covington & Burling
Willkie Farr
Hughes Hubbard
BakerHostetler
King & Spalding
Paul Hastings
Baker & Mackenzie
Paul, Weiss
O'Melveny & [deleted]
Hunton & Williams
Goodwin Procter
Baker Botts
Akin Gump
Ropes & Gray

Anonymous User
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Re: HLS EIP 2015

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 23, 2015 3:04 pm

2 H's, 8 P's. From Southern California and went to undergrad in LA. Ties to Boston - HLS, SO here. Interested in corporate and I want Boston more than LA. I added a few NY firms for safeties. Any firms I'm missing or are definitely out of reach for any of the markets? Percentages are how many people got bids last year.

Also, can anyone confirm that MoFo's LA office isn't looking for corporate SAs? Seemed like only their SD office is looking for corporate SAs from CSM.

1. Mintz, Levin (Boston) 39%
2. Cooley LLP (Boston/LA) 43%
3. Shearman & Sterling (NY) 50%
4. K&L Gates (Boston) 52%
5. Jones Day (Boston) 53%
6. Proskauer Rose (Boston/NY) 55%
7. Nixon Peabody (Boston/LA) 37%
8. Paul Hastings (LA/NY) 58%
9. Morrison & Foerster (LA or SD?) 62%
10. Choate (Boston) 71%
11. Schulte, Roth, Zabel (NY) 62%
12. McDermott Will & Emery (Boston) 65%
13. Akin, Gump (LA) 69%
14. Gibson Dunn (LA) 76%
15. Latham (Boston) 91%
16. Wilmerhale (Boston) 102%
17. Ropes and Gray (Boston) 108%
18. Goodwin Proctor (Boston) 91/102%
19. Weil Gotshal & Manges (Boston) 105%
20. Sidley Austin LLP (Boston/LA) 86%
21. Foley Hoag (Boston) 93%
22. Nutter (Boston) 96%
23. Brown Rudnick (Boston) 76%
24. Morgan Lewis (Boston) 80%
25. Foley & Larder (Boston) 82%
26. Dechert LLP (Boston) 83%
27. Cadwalder (NY) 84%
28. O’Melveny & [deleted] (LA) 88%
29. Paul Weiss (NY) 89%
30. Skadden (Boston) 89%
31. Goulston & Storrs (Boston) 90%
32. Willkie Farr (NY) 92%
33. Irell & Manella (LA) 106%
34. Milbank, Tweed, Hadley & McCloy (LA) 113%
35. Winston & Strawn (NY) 97%

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Re: HLS EIP 2015

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 23, 2015 11:35 pm

Should making or not making HLR affect our bid list?

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TripTrip
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Re: HLS EIP 2015

Postby TripTrip » Fri Jul 24, 2015 12:10 am

Anonymous User wrote:2 H's, 8 P's. From Southern California and went to undergrad in LA. Ties to Boston - HLS, SO here. Interested in corporate and I want Boston more than LA. I added a few NY firms for safeties. Any firms I'm missing or are definitely out of reach for any of the markets? Percentages are how many people got bids last year.

Also, can anyone confirm that MoFo's LA office isn't looking for corporate SAs? Seemed like only their SD office is looking for corporate SAs from CSM.

1. Mintz, Levin (Boston) 39%
2. Cooley LLP (Boston/LA) 43%
3. Shearman & Sterling (NY) 50%
4. K&L Gates (Boston) 52%
5. Jones Day (Boston) 53%
6. Proskauer Rose (Boston/NY) 55%
7. Nixon Peabody (Boston/LA) 37%
8. Paul Hastings (LA/NY) 58%
9. Morrison & Foerster (LA or SD?) 62%
10. Choate (Boston) 71%
11. Schulte, Roth, Zabel (NY) 62%
12. McDermott Will & Emery (Boston) 65%
13. Akin, Gump (LA) 69%
14. Gibson Dunn (LA) 76%
15. Latham (Boston) 91%
16. Wilmerhale (Boston) 102%
17. Ropes and Gray (Boston) 108%
18. Goodwin Proctor (Boston) 91/102%
19. Weil Gotshal & Manges (Boston) 105%
20. Sidley Austin LLP (Boston/LA) 86%
21. Foley Hoag (Boston) 93%
22. Nutter (Boston) 96%
23. Brown Rudnick (Boston) 76%
24. Morgan Lewis (Boston) 80%
25. Foley & Larder (Boston) 82%
26. Dechert LLP (Boston) 83%
27. Cadwalder (NY) 84%
28. O’Melveny & [deleted] (LA) 88%
29. Paul Weiss (NY) 89%
30. Skadden (Boston) 89%
31. Goulston & Storrs (Boston) 90%
32. Willkie Farr (NY) 92%
33. Irell & Manella (LA) 106%
34. Milbank, Tweed, Hadley & McCloy (LA) 113%
35. Winston & Strawn (NY) 97%

Don't bid the NY safeties. Stick to two markets.

Anonymous User
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Re: HLS EIP 2015

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 24, 2015 1:35 pm

Anyone know which firms have grade-UNselective NYC offices, but whose main office/HQ is known for grade selective or otherwise difficult to get an offer at?

For example, is Hogan NY grade unselective even though Hogan DC is, well, Hogan DC?
Likewise, GDC NY (compared to GDC DC, LA)?

How would I find quite a number of these firms, and where in the bidlist should they go? FWIW someone from OCS already approved my bidlist, I'm just looking to swap a few in and out.

wwwcol
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Re: HLS EIP 2015

Postby wwwcol » Fri Jul 24, 2015 3:40 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Anyone know which firms have grade-UNselective NYC offices, but whose main office/HQ is known for grade selective or otherwise difficult to get an offer at?

For example, is Hogan NY grade unselective even though Hogan DC is, well, Hogan DC?
Likewise, GDC NY (compared to GDC DC, LA)?

How would I find quite a number of these firms, and where in the bidlist should they go? FWIW someone from OCS already approved my bidlist, I'm just looking to swap a few in and out.


That is sort of a weird question. What exactly are you trying to accomplish? Reap preftige that you couldn't otherwise get? Backdoor your way into a market you don't have the grades for?

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jbagelboy
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Re: HLS EIP 2015

Postby jbagelboy » Fri Jul 24, 2015 5:26 pm

wwwcol wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Anyone know which firms have grade-UNselective NYC offices, but whose main office/HQ is known for grade selective or otherwise difficult to get an offer at?

For example, is Hogan NY grade unselective even though Hogan DC is, well, Hogan DC?
Likewise, GDC NY (compared to GDC DC, LA)?

How would I find quite a number of these firms, and where in the bidlist should they go? FWIW someone from OCS already approved my bidlist, I'm just looking to swap a few in and out.


That is sort of a weird question. What exactly are you trying to accomplish? Reap preftige that you couldn't otherwise get? Backdoor your way into a market you don't have the grades for?


It is a weird question but its also a very common phenomenon (less selective NY offices). Prominent firms that come to mind are Kirkland, Gibson, Covington, Arnold & Porter, WilmerHale, Skadden (main office NY but arguably more selective in DC/Chi), Sidley, Jenner, Morrison Foerster, Akin Gump, O'Melveny, Jones Day, Perkins Coie, and a whole bunch of TX firms.

Basically, almost any firm that's very prominent in DC or Chicago will have a less selective NY office (note, not totally unselective, just less).

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Re: HLS EIP 2015

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 25, 2015 12:05 pm

Yes a lot are less selective. But are there any that are plainly unselective?

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Re: HLS EIP 2015

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 25, 2015 12:29 pm

NYC (minus Wachtell) = unselective.

NEdelton1987
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Re: HLS EIP 2015

Postby NEdelton1987 » Sat Jul 25, 2015 4:09 pm

Anonymous User wrote:NYC (minus Wachtell) = unselective.


If by unselective you mean only 1/2 of incoming associates are top 20%. While a median or below median student has a greater shot at biglaw in NYC than most other places, some NYC firms are among the most selective, even compared to DC firms (where only one is more selective).

If you're median and want DC/CA/etc., you should bid New York firms also not because they are unselective, but because there are more jobs there. You should not avoid DC/CA/etc.

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Re: HLS EIP 2015

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 25, 2015 5:45 pm

How does the ceremonial transcript exchange alter the substance of an EIP screener? Have you ever felt like the screener was over once they saw your grades - either positively or negatively?

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Re: HLS EIP 2015

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 25, 2015 5:48 pm

Not sure I agree with only one DC firm being more selective than NYC. The sense I get is W&C, Gibson, Covington, Wilmer are each more selective than any firm in NYC not named Wachtell - excluding boutiques.

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TripTrip
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Re: HLS EIP 2015

Postby TripTrip » Sat Jul 25, 2015 6:26 pm

Anonymous User wrote:How does the ceremonial transcript exchange alter the substance of an EIP screener? Have you ever felt like the screener was over once they saw your grades - either positively or negatively?

I never had an interviewer look at my transcript during a screener. They just take it and put it in a folder. Or, even more common, they won't take it at all because you already uploaded it to CSM.

NEdelton1987 wrote:If you're median and want DC/CA/etc., you should bid New York firms also not because they are unselective, but because there are more jobs there. You should not avoid DC/CA/etc.

I think this is true, but I don't think the "etc" applies. DC and CA are really the only domestic markets where you would have to be worried and cross bid NY. Elsewhere (Chicago, Texas, PA, and other regionals) you would be cross bidding almost exclusively because there aren't enough firms to bid on. There are usually enough jobs to go around in these places. Chicago, for one, has a bunch of firms pining for Harvard grads.

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Re: HLS EIP 2015

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 25, 2015 7:14 pm

Can someone list off a few firms for someone who is applying with 2 H 8 P and wants to have a decent chance at NYC? I'm applying mostly to Houston firms so I've got 25 or so firms that I'll be throwing bids at (took out a few firms I'm assuming I'd rather not work at) but I'm not sure what to do with those last 10 spots, I just know if I weren't going to work in Houston, NYC would be my next pick.

Also, with those grades do y'all think Baker Botts or V&E (In Houston) are out of the question, or just reaches?

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TripTrip
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Re: HLS EIP 2015

Postby TripTrip » Sat Jul 25, 2015 7:35 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Can someone list off a few firms for someone who is applying with 2 H 8 P and wants to have a decent chance at NYC? I'm applying mostly to Houston firms so I've got 25 or so firms that I'll be throwing bids at (took out a few firms I'm assuming I'd rather not work at) but I'm not sure what to do with those last 10 spots, I just know if I weren't going to work in Houston, NYC would be my next pick.

Also, with those grades do y'all think Baker Botts or V&E (In Houston) are out of the question, or just reaches?

With median-ish grades you can just bid on the firms that take a lot of HLS students and don't appear on the Vault selectivity list.

Baker Botts and V&E in Houston are within reach.

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Re: HLS EIP 2015

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jul 26, 2015 1:54 am

2 Questions.

1. It's well known that DC & CA are harder than NY. But even within NY, are there some firms that are not only easier than their DC/Chi/LA offices, but are UNselective relative to other NY firms? E.g., Jenner NY. To round out a bidlist.

2. In the same vein as the poster expressing surprise at where HLR editors go, someone just called attention to the fact that of the 4 Sears winners who graduated in 2015 (listed in the public Commencement program), only 1 is going somewhere the above anon expected more HLR editors to go (W&C). The others are going to Wilmer BOS, GDC Denver, and Wilmer NY (Fay).

A mutual friend says that GDC Denver person isn't from Colorado but may have chosen the best firm in the area after accepting a COA clerkship there.

Wilmer BOS is obviously great for someone who wants to stay in BOS. But what makes Wilmer NY stand out among A. other NY firms and B. other Wilmer offices?

Don't they have their pick of the litter?

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Re: HLS EIP 2015

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jul 26, 2015 5:28 am

Jenner NY (and the rest of the satellite offices, especially DC) is quite selective relative to both the Chicago office and large NYC firms generally.

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TripTrip
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Re: HLS EIP 2015

Postby TripTrip » Sun Jul 26, 2015 6:46 am

I think a few things need to be clarified. There is no substantive difference between unselective and less selective. All biglaw firms get to be "selective." You just experience relatively less of that selectivity because you already go to Harvard.

Second, there are not elite law firms in the same way that their are elite law schools. All of the amlaw 200 have hugely powerful client and do work for the fortune 500. There is not a T14 of law firms. The "worst" firm on your bid list is doing multimillion dollar bet-the-company work for an international billion dollar corporation. (Unless you're bidding on a plaintiff firm.).

You will still make $160k, you will still be ranked by the number of years you have worked, you will still only have a 6% chance of making partner in a median of 10 years, and most importantly: you will still have killer exit options. That 6% chance of making partner only goes up if you like the work you're doing and the people you work with.

Your chances of getting an in house job or a spot at the USAO both go up if you can form strong relationships with the right partners and clients, which is even easier to do at the non "elite" firms. Some GCs will care which firm you worked for. They will probably want it to be the one they worked for.

Focussing on the prestige of your future law firm by comparing its selectivity to other huge law firms is a dangerous and probably pointless game. Go where you like the people, the work, and the clients. Not because you're soft and wishy washy, but because that will set you up to get ahead.

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mino
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Re: HLS EIP 2015

Postby mino » Sun Jul 26, 2015 12:12 pm

Anonymous User wrote:2 Questions.

1. It's well known that DC & CA are harder than NY. But even within NY, are there some firms that are not only easier than their DC/Chi/LA offices, but are UNselective relative to other NY firms? E.g., Jenner NY. To round out a bidlist.

2. In the same vein as the poster expressing surprise at where HLR editors go, someone just called attention to the fact that of the 4 Sears winners who graduated in 2015 (listed in the public Commencement program), only 1 is going somewhere the above anon expected more HLR editors to go (W&C). The others are going to Wilmer BOS, GDC Denver, and Wilmer NY (Fay).

A mutual friend says that GDC Denver person isn't from Colorado but may have chosen the best firm in the area after accepting a COA clerkship there.

Wilmer BOS is obviously great for someone who wants to stay in BOS. But what makes Wilmer NY stand out among A. other NY firms and B. other Wilmer offices?

Don't they have their pick of the litter?


I don't think it's as easy as saying "this person was a Sears winner and therefore will go to the most elite, prestigious place possible." While these people probably have the choice to go anywhere they want, they may be choosing the best firm for them. I really don't think the "you go to the most prestigious/selective/lusted after firm that you get an offer from really stands.

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Re: HLS EIP 2015

Postby jbagelboy » Sun Jul 26, 2015 2:20 pm

Anonymous User wrote:2 Questions.

1. It's well known that DC & CA are harder than NY. But even within NY, are there some firms that are not only easier than their DC/Chi/LA offices, but are UNselective relative to other NY firms? E.g., Jenner NY. To round out a bidlist.

2. In the same vein as the poster expressing surprise at where HLR editors go, someone just called attention to the fact that of the 4 Sears winners who graduated in 2015 (listed in the public Commencement program), only 1 is going somewhere the above anon expected more HLR editors to go (W&C). The others are going to Wilmer BOS, GDC Denver, and Wilmer NY (Fay).

A mutual friend says that GDC Denver person isn't from Colorado but may have chosen the best firm in the area after accepting a COA clerkship there.

Wilmer BOS is obviously great for someone who wants to stay in BOS. But what makes Wilmer NY stand out among A. other NY firms and B. other Wilmer offices?

Don't they have their pick of the litter?


Those people are probably serious SCOTUS/feeder COA candidates, so they are looking for appellate work if they're working in private practice. Wilmer and Gibson arguably do the best of that work (and recruit top tier candidates), and maybe there were personal reasons for starting in NY.

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Re: HLS EIP 2015

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jul 26, 2015 7:23 pm

Agree. These people are off to top notch feeder clerkships and then SCOTUS. While at SCOTUS, they will recruit all over for DC appellate/SCOTUS gigs (Jones Day, Mayer, Sidley, Latham, Gibson, Kellogg, etc.). These are just temporary fillers.

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Re: HLS EIP 2015

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 27, 2015 1:09 am

DS/5H/4P targeting Chicago/NYC for litigation. KJD. How do we feel about this bidlist? My Chicago bids are pretty aggressive and interspersed, I know. Do I need more safety-tier NYC firms? I chose Skadden NYC over Skadden Chicago for no particular reason.

1. Cravath (69%)
WilmerHale (63%)
Proskauer (53%)
Weil (57%)
Skadden NYC (62%)
Jones Day Chicago (66%)
Debevoise (63%)
SullCrom (74%)
Davis Polk (76%)
Cleary (82%)
Paul Weiss (89%)
Kirkland Chicago (88%)
Simpson Thacher (91%)
Sidley Chicago (96%)
Ropes ranked Chicago, NYC, Boston, DC (96%)
Mayer (102%)
17. Jenner Chicago (103%)

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Re: HLS EIP 2015

Postby robotrick » Mon Jul 27, 2015 6:25 am

Does anyone know how it works if you want to request to split a summer between two of a firm's offices, especially if it's an international office? Do I bring it up in the interview? If any 3Ls or alums who might be reading have any advice that would be really helpful (PM if you prefer).




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