Columbia EIP 2015

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Re: Columbia EIP 2015

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 12, 2015 11:16 am

Anonymous User wrote:Can't put Simpson and DPW in the same category as Wachtell or Cravath, just to be clear. For the former group, I know at least four non-Stone people who got offers to DPW, for exampplary anecdote. Non diverse and no special work experience. You're prob wasting time with the latter category if you're not Stone. Firms like DPW, Simpson, Skadden, and Paul Weiss are attainable reaches for median students (although a large majority is honors still). I'm not saying everyone should bid them (you shouldn't) but can be worth picking up interviews. Wachtell and Cravath are not.


Well, if you want to split hairs like this, Wachtell hiring standards at CLS are far and above the other V10ish firms like Cravath, Davis, and Simpson, which compete for talent amongst each other far more regularly than Wachtell has to (with S&C in some grey area as consistently grade-snobbier than CSM/DPW/ect.) These firms all hand out about 40-50 offers at EIP, mostly if not entirely to honors students, while Wachtell hires 5-7; its a very sharp divide. The line drawn here after that feels somewhat arbitrary - we're talking about 3-5 kids one way or the other year on year. Again, as Jason emphasized, traditionally this set of firms were all above 90/95% honors (I think dpw/csm/s&c were all ~95% in 2013) and if you're a median student, sure pick up a few interviews with these places if there are extras but don't make them your key targets

Once you're near stone/low stone the calculus changes and these large class size firms should certainly be in your repertoire

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Re: Columbia EIP 2015

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 12, 2015 11:30 am

I mean, none of us know what will happen next year. DPW had 76% honors this past year, and that certainly cannot be grouped together with Cravath and obviously Wachtell in that regard. Will they continue the trend? Or go back to previous years' percentages? I'm saying that as a median student, DPW can be relatively worth slotting a bid for, whereas Cravath and Wachtell are not (although you can put them really low, which changes the equation). Again, not trying to paint an overly optimistic picture. Nobody knows.

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smaug
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Re: Columbia EIP 2015

Postby smaug » Fri Jun 12, 2015 11:32 am

I really wouldn't bid DPW at median unless you had some very strong softs.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Columbia EIP 2015

Postby Tiago Splitter » Fri Jun 12, 2015 12:03 pm

Jason Taverner wrote:I really wouldn't bid DPW at median unless you had some very strong softs.

I agree unless you can land these firms with a bid in the 20's. You don't want to be using prime bid space on firms that are relative long shots.

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Re: Columbia EIP 2015

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 12, 2015 6:56 pm

Yea. You can get most of these firms bidding them low. IIRC only Skadden, Cleary and a couple others need to bid pretty high.

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Re: Columbia EIP 2015

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jun 13, 2015 12:36 am

Anyone know where to find the offers by honors report the c/o 2016 received for last year's EIP? And maybe even the year before that? There's such a small sample size using just this year's report, especially for non-NY firms.

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Re: Columbia EIP 2015

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jun 13, 2015 6:24 am

Does anyone know when things like Stone Scholar/class awards get added to your transcript?

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Re: Columbia EIP 2015

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jun 13, 2015 10:02 am

are people still waiting for grades?

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: Columbia EIP 2015

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Sat Jun 13, 2015 11:25 am

Okay, here are some things to think about:

(A) Strikeouts are real, even if it doesn't feel that way because nobody talks about it IRL. It was 13% for c/o 2016, and that is not a meaningless number. Everyone thinks it won't happen to them, until it does. Therefore, your number one priority is to get a job. If it happens to be the specific one you were angling for, great. But the downside risk you create by angling towards the hard-to-reach is way, way, WAY larger than the upside risk of getting this firm instead of that firm.



(B) The top three reasons people strike out are, in order:

3. Bad grades--Hopefully you've made your peace with this one by now, because it isn't changing. Bad grades, of course, won't help your case. But CLS has a very strong placement record, and bottom-of-the-class grades do not make it impossible, or even unlikely, that you'll be able to get a Biglaw job. Be comforted with that knowledge, and move on to the things you can actually affect.

2. Bad interviewing--Some people have dynamite charisma. Because you read TLS, that isn't you. So get your ass to OCS and start doing practice interviewing. Do as many as you can until they stop letting you in the building. Email them until they let you in purely on the knowledge that you'll annoy them if they don't. I think I did like seven. If you're so inclined, go to outside consultants who do this for a living. It helps you with the two important skills of EIP: Giving scripted answers that sound like you just came up with them, and giving the consistent energy/enthusiasm that makes it look like you'll shit bricks for the opportunity to talk to Insert Firm Name Here. It's a skill, and just like most other skills, some people are more naturally inclined, but pretty much everyone can get better with practice. If you do a shitton, then by the time EIP rolls around there won't be any questions that you haven't heard before. If you're tremendously awkward, the interviews aren't going to turn you into Don Draper overnight, but they have a decent chance of making you passable enough to hire.

1. Bad bidding--This is the worst thing students do every year. Many, maybe most, of the people who strikeout from CLS are doing something other than the prudent play, which is to fill your schedule with large-class NYC firms. Anything else entails an unnecessary risk. It's up to you to decide how badly you want something that isn't that, and whether your specific situation is such that you can afford to take on some kind of risk. But a good rule of thumb if you want to minimize the probability of debtfucking your life is that non-Stone students should be bidding a minimum of 20 large-class NYC firms. Regardless of GPA, this should include all of the following, unless you have a seriously good reason not to bid one of the above: Cadwalader, Clifford Chance, Fried Frank, Greenberg Traurig, Hogan, K&L Gates, Kaye Scholer, Kramer Levin, Mayer Brown, Milbank, Paul Hastings, Proskauer, Schulte, Sidley, and Willkie. If you are at least median-ish, that list should also include Kirkland, Ropes, and Shearman. To focus on anything besides the firms most likely to hire you if you are non-Stone is a significant risk.



(C) Do as many interviews as you can. OCS told me and other students, and will probably tell you, that you should keep your schedule to no more than 20 or so. That's utter nonsense. There is no risk to doing more interviews and you should not be shutting the door to any opportunity. Yes, it will be tiring. Drink some goddamn coffee. I had two cups each day, and those of you with higher caffeine tolerances will need more. Doesn't matter; there are available pots in the reception area. I was so tired at the end of each day that I immediately crashed when I got home. But I didn't do any interviews with anything less than 100% enthusiasm. I had 28 after bidding and raced like a madman to pick up anything that fit my schedule. For several days I was checking literally every 15 minutes to see if anyone had dropped anything (you don't have to be quite that insane). In the end, one of my offers was from a firm I picked up late in the process. I was lucky to have two others before that, but you never know which one you pick up might be the difference between Biglaw and debtpwnage. In the end, it's something of a numbers game. Think in terms of probability. It's tremendously hard to predict which firms will like you and which won't. There is often not a lot of rhyme or reason as to why Firm A called you back and Firm B didn't. Think of more interviews as more free tickets to a raffle--why would you turn down a chance to increase your odds? I had very bad grades and I don't think I'm any more likable than the next guy, but I had six callbacks, just due to the sheer volume of interviews that I did.



(D) OCS' advice is frequently bad. Take everything they say with a grain of salt. TLS consistently gives better advice. Last year, OCS told one kid that he couldn't get Simpson with a 3.7 without WE. That's nonsense. They told another kid that if he really wanted Cravath, he should bid them in his top five. That's just demonstrably really inefficient. I'm sure there are other "gems" I've forgotten.



(E) I have always been really confused as to why the average student seems to get so few of their lottery bids. This is really not a hard process. People who get fewer than 25 of their bids are doing something wrong. The first failed bid stuff is remarkably consistent year-to-year. Look up where Firm X could not be had last year. Move it a few spots above that to account for variability. This is really so easy and yet so many people in the past have messed it up. Do not be like those people.
Last edited by Monochromatic Oeuvre on Sat Jun 13, 2015 11:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: Columbia EIP 2015

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Sat Jun 13, 2015 11:27 am

Anonymous User wrote:Anyone know where to find the offers by honors report the c/o 2016 received for last year's EIP? And maybe even the year before that? There's such a small sample size using just this year's report, especially for non-NY firms.


PM me. I think I still have this.

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Re: Columbia EIP 2015

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jun 13, 2015 11:49 am

does a 3.73 (non-Kent) make me competitive for Williams & Connelly, wachtell, and other very selective firms? i would assume yes but not sure how much the no Kent takes away, and also hard to tell where in the class a 3.73 ranks. 3 years of finance WE if that's relevant.

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Re: Columbia EIP 2015

Postby jbagelboy » Sat Jun 13, 2015 12:05 pm

Anyone with a 3.7 will get a look from any firm at EIP. But remember these places give out <8 offers each year and there are at least 20 ppl with those grades interviewing with them so don't think you're locked in to anything by virtue of academics

Also just fyi you know Bill & Conny has no corporate practice right? Sounds like your background speaks more to m&a/transactional, which is wachtell's game. I think your WE will play well there. Of course you have to cater to each shop, but at the same time I don't recommend adopting too many different narratives just to bid different kinds of firms.

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Re: Columbia EIP 2015

Postby almondjoy » Sat Jun 13, 2015 2:59 pm

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:Great Post.txt

Awesome post, thanks.

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Re: Columbia EIP 2015

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jun 13, 2015 10:15 pm

Have the following bid list. What GPA is it appropriate for, would you think?

Boies 1
Gibson Dunn 2
Debevoise 3
Wilmer Hale 4
Arnold and Porter 5
Paul Weiss 6
Ropes and Gray 7
Sullivan and Cromwell 8
Cahill Gordon 9
Cleary Gottlieb 10
Davis Polk 11
Covington 12
Williams and Connolly (DC) 13
Gibson Dunn (DC) 14
Hughes Hubbard 15
Covington (DC) 16
Cravath 17
Wachtell 18
Simpson Thacher 19
Perkins Coie (SF) 20
Munger Tolles (LA) 21
Gibson Dunn (SF) 22
Latham (SF) 23
Morgan Lewis (SF) 24
MoFo (SF) 25
Paul Hastings (SF) 26

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smaug
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Re: Columbia EIP 2015

Postby smaug » Sat Jun 13, 2015 10:36 pm

that's pretty backwards, but that's a 3.7 or above bidlist, imho

prob. closer to 3.8

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Re: Columbia EIP 2015

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jun 13, 2015 10:54 pm

Thanks. Would you mind clarifying "pretty backwards"?

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papercut
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Re: Columbia EIP 2015

Postby papercut » Sat Jun 13, 2015 11:11 pm

First come grades, then the bid list follows.

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smaug
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Re: Columbia EIP 2015

Postby smaug » Sat Jun 13, 2015 11:36 pm

papercut wrote:First come grades, then the bid list follows.


exactly

you're anonymous

if you want help just give us your grades, it's not like someone is going to know who you are based on your bidlist comprised of selective firms

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smaug
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Re: Columbia EIP 2015

Postby smaug » Sun Jun 14, 2015 9:07 am

I don't know that 25 is a great number for everyone, but I agree with MO that borderline candidates should try to maximize interviews.

I think if you have great grades, it could makes sense to try to interview early with some places (QE always has people interview over the summer; I think Debevoise has been having people interview early; I know people who had Weil callbacks pre-EIP; I've heard rumblings about pre-EIP interviews from many other good firms) and then if you're in that situation, you can winnow down your interview schedule so it's not so hectic. I had 28 interviews from bids I think (I made an error with one, and I would have gotten the other but I had so many interviews that I was conflicted out of the spot).

N.B.—this is something I don't think OCS ever explains because they assume it won't be a problem. I lost one interview for it, and sometimes I wonder if I made a bad call, so listen up—let's say you 'win' a bid on a firm for an interview—the program will try to slot you in. But, if you put that firm lower than other firms, the interview slots you have for those other firms will take precedence (the program assumes that you prefer the firms you bid higher to the firms you bid lower) this means if a firm has a small slate and your schedule is very full, it's possible you'll 'win' the bid but be unable to get an interview.

I don't know what the solution to that is, but it should only really pop up if you're bidding on a firm that you could likely interview with without bidding at all.

Similarly, in order to have a less full schedule, I think that really strong candidates might be willing to skip some of the firms in MO's list, but it's generally a good one. Those firms hire a lot of people.

One thing to keep in mind is that smaller classes will be harder to get hired into, period. There are some exceptions, I'm sure, but there's just less room for error. So, even if your'e a great candidate, be wary of absolutely filling your schedule with firms that don't take very many summers.

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Re: Columbia EIP 2015

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:28 pm

Comparing this year's First Failed Bid Numbers (the ones we just received, reflecting last year's EIP results) to the ones posted in the Columbia EIP 2014 thread by FredJones (presumably reflecting 2013 results) here: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=231040&start=100.

From what I'm seeing, the First Failed Bids for NYC firms last year were almost invariably lower than those from the year before, sometimes significantly so. Has a pretty big impact on how we use those first, valuable bids.

Is this just a function of class size, i.e., a larger-than-usual class going through EIP last year (or a smaller than usual class the year before)? Or am I missing something else here?

Thanks for any insights.

- Jay Gatsby

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smaug
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Re: Columbia EIP 2015

Postby smaug » Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:33 pm

it was the first year where the first failed bids data were given out, so i'd wager that changed bidding strategy significantly

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Re: Columbia EIP 2015

Postby starrydreamz3 » Sun Jun 14, 2015 4:42 pm

Echoing what was said above, for those candidates with strong credentials, there are several firms that will interview with your pre-eip. I'm a rising 3L and last year I had interviews with Cravath, Davis Polk, and Skadden before EIP (and had 2/3 offers before EIP as well, with the third coming soon after). Can't hurt to cold email recruiting a copy of your resume, and call in any close contacts you made at the networking events.

Fair warning, reaching out to firms might be against some OCS policy, but idgaf. It made the whole process so much easier.

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Re: Columbia EIP 2015

Postby jbagelboy » Sun Jun 14, 2015 4:47 pm

starrydreamz3 wrote:Echoing what was said above, for those candidates with strong credentials, there are several firms that will interview with your pre-eip. I'm a rising 3L and last year I had interviews with Cravath, Davis Polk, and Skadden before EIP (and had 2/3 offers before EIP as well, with the third coming soon after). Can't hurt to cold email recruiting a copy of your resume, and call in any close contacts you made at the networking events.

Fair warning, reaching out to firms might be against some OCS policy, but idgaf. It made the whole process so much easier.


Did the same for a handful of firms. OCS hates it. Fuck them.

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Re: Columbia EIP 2015

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jun 14, 2015 7:00 pm

Can interviewing pre-EIP backfire if you end up with offers that expire before you hear back from firms that you interview with through the EIP process? How does timing generally work?

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Re: Columbia EIP 2015

Postby smaug » Sun Jun 14, 2015 7:02 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Can interviewing pre-EIP backfire if you end up with offers that expire before you hear back from firms that you interview with through the EIP process? How does timing generally work?


pretty sure everyone will hold them open for you well past EIP

they know how it works




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