Columbia EIP 2015 Forum

[Anonymous User]

Hey fellow Class of 2017ers,

Grades are coming back and the Offers by Honors reports are up on Symplicity, meaning that it's about time to start putting together bidlists for EIP. In this thread, we help one another put together suitable bidlists, share information, assuage fears, offer advice on interviews and callbacks, etc.

Past threads:

2014: http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 3&t=231040
2013: http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 3&t=211338
2012: http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 3&t=187757
2011: http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 3&t=162163

Here are the rules and some tips from last year:

I. Anonymous Handles

We all want to maintain some privacy during this process. That said, it is also nice to keep track of who is saying what. I recommend that everyone pick a handle with which to sign her anonymous posts (although you obviously don’t have to) so that we can keep track of one another.

II. Bidding

The basics of bidlist stuff should be straightforward even if you’re not Socrates: if you think other people are more likely to bid on a firm, you should bid it high. Firms that are less grade-selective or that have fewer interview spots are more competitive, so you should probably rank them higher. Don’t rank a firm high just because you want it, but if you really want a particular firm it might be good to rank it high for your peace of mind. The EIP Failed Bid Report helps with this, although relying too heavily on it could be a mistake (or so I've heard). Finally, spreading bids out between multiple markets increases the risk of striking out, especially if you don't have strong ties to those markets. We’ve all seen the data: there are just more jobs in New York, so NY is a solid backup for folks who are trying to head to California, Chicago, DC, etc.

III. Callbacks

Once we’re at least part-way through the first rings of interviewing hell, people will get callbacks. In past years, people would post the firm name and the initials of the person who interviewed them when they received a callback so that people would know that callbacks had gone out.

Good luck.

- Original Toaster


"The DoubleTree" (By Wikijagdeep (Template:Jagdeep Singh Sekhon) [CC BY-SA 3.0 (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0) or GFDL (http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/fdl.html)], via Wikimedia Commons)

[Anonymous User]

Still waiting for all my grades except for my spring elective...

-Bobbitt's Hobbit

[Anonymous User]

where is the offers by honors report? Nevermind - it's on the interview programs tab.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone start creating their bid list yet?

[Anonymous User]

Only received 1/4 of my grades for spring so holding off on the bidlist. Don't think I did well this semester.

-Bobbitt's Hobbit

[Anonymous User]

I've been doing a little research, but I'm gonna wait till all my grades are back to post my bidlist. Typical profs taking forever to return grades...

- Original Toaster

[Anonymous User]

Here here. Preparing my sacrifice to the God of Offers. No grades yet from the Strauss side.

[ColumbiaLS2016]

Hey guys! The last time I posted, it was about getting below-median grades, and why not to panic because of them. I also wanted to help offer a bit of advice for EIP as a non-Stone student. At least in last year's page, almost everyone was Stone, and a lot of people were Kent. It made it feel really isolating, like I was the only one who didn't make the Stone cut-off, but that obviously wasn't the case. Most people don't, and most people end up getting biglaw through EIP. So just wanted to add that reassurance right away.

When I went through EIP, I was in that awkward place where I was above median (probably, given that we don't know exactly what median is) but below Stone. I do think the Stone cut-off is a pretty significant cut-off, even if you were like me and only missed it by a few decimals. So I think that everyone from those who just missed it to everyone on down (except maybe those with glaringly bad grades) is in the same boat.

You'll hear a lot of pieces of advice, and they're good for the most part. Have a story or something interesting behind every single item on your resume. Practice what you will say about them, but be careful not to sound too rehearsed. Treat the interviews somewhat conversationally, in that you can make follow-up remarks to your interviewer to create a connection with them. Since your grades won't help you stand out, you need your personality to. I didn't have anything outstanding on my resume, but I was a really solid interviewer because I was a great conversationalist, and got a callback at nearly every firm I interviewed at.

With bidding, my number one piece of advice is to do research. Your first area of research should be to see what firms give a good amount of non-Stone offers. But my mistake was to stop there, because I wanted to play it as safe as possible. Since most of the class is non-Stone, there are only so many interview spots for those firms. The next step is to ask yourself what kind of work you want to do (corporate/lit/smaller practice area) or what kind of firm you want to work for (free market/assigning system). For example, I bid on Clifford Chance because they gave out a good amount of non-Stone offers. But they are extremely corporate-heavy, to the point where you aren't guaranteed to work in litigation if you want it, and I didn't have the international focus that the firm is really known for. That was a wasted bid. You're not going to get every firm that takes a lot of non-Stone people. Be very selective in that regard for who you bid. Do a lot of research on firms and see if you can construct a narrative for why you would want to work there. You'll increase your odds of getting a callback because it will sound a lot more genuine when they ask you that question, and you'll increase your odds of ending up somewhere where you'll be happy. When it comes time for add/drop, definitely don't be as selective with the firms you add. If you've got a plausible connection to them, go for it. And definitely go to hospitality suites, and be extremely friendly with the people there. I got some interviews that way.

Feel free to PM me. TLS isn't always the best place for people who aren't at the top of the class. Fortunately at a school like CLS, you don't need to be in order to get NYC biglaw (or biglaw in a lot of other places). But your approach should be different from your Kent and Stone peers, and I would love to help you in any way possible. Like I said, I bid very poorly (got a lot of firms i wasn't interested in but not many firms in general) and still ended up with about 15 CBs and several offers. EIP didn't feel stressful. If you have any specific questions, just reach out to me! I'm here to help.

And one final bit of advice to everyone: be kind to each other. EIP for a lot of people is kinda stressful, and you're all going through it together. I think my class did a really tremendous job of being really supportive of each other, and considerate not to make people feel bad. So don't take phone calls in front of people, or talk about what CBs you have or what offers you have (unless someone asks or they're you're really good friend or something). Keep that info to yourself. At the end of the day, if you get 20 offers or 2, you can still only work at one firm. No need to make this process any more difficult for your peers than it needs to be.

Good luck guys! You'll all kill it I'm sure.

[jbagelboy]

Hey guys! The last time I posted, it was about getting below-median grades, and why not to panic because of them. I also wanted to help offer a bit of advice for EIP as a non-Stone student. At least in last year's page, almost everyone was Stone, and a lot of people were Kent. It made it feel really isolating, like I was the only one who didn't make the Stone cut-off, but that obviously wasn't the case. Most people don't, and most people end up getting biglaw through EIP. So just wanted to add that reassurance right away.

When I went through EIP, I was in that awkward place where I was above median (probably, given that we don't know exactly what median is) but below Stone. I do think the Stone cut-off is a pretty significant cut-off, even if you were like me and only missed it by a few decimals. So I think that everyone from those who just missed it to everyone on down (except maybe those with glaringly bad grades) is in the same boat.

You'll hear a lot of pieces of advice, and they're good for the most part. Have a story or something interesting behind every single item on your resume. Practice what you will say about them, but be careful not to sound too rehearsed. Treat the interviews somewhat conversationally, in that you can make follow-up remarks to your interviewer to create a connection with them. Since your grades won't help you stand out, you need your personality to. I didn't have anything outstanding on my resume, but I was a really solid interviewer because I was a great conversationalist, and got a callback at nearly every firm I interviewed at.

With bidding, my number one piece of advice is to do research. Your first area of research should be to see what firms give a good amount of non-Stone offers. But my mistake was to stop there, because I wanted to play it as safe as possible. Since most of the class is non-Stone, there are only so many interview spots for those firms. The next step is to ask yourself what kind of work you want to do (corporate/lit/smaller practice area) or what kind of firm you want to work for (free market/assigning system). For example, I bid on Clifford Chance because they gave out a good amount of non-Stone offers. But they are extremely corporate-heavy, to the point where you aren't guaranteed to work in litigation if you want it, and I didn't have the international focus that the firm is really known for. That was a wasted bid. You're not going to get every firm that takes a lot of non-Stone people. Be very selective in that regard for who you bid. Do a lot of research on firms and see if you can construct a narrative for why you would want to work there. You'll increase your odds of getting a callback because it will sound a lot more genuine when they ask you that question, and you'll increase your odds of ending up somewhere where you'll be happy. When it comes time for add/drop, definitely don't be as selective with the firms you add. If you've got a plausible connection to them, go for it. And definitely go to hospitality suites, and be extremely friendly with the people there. I got some interviews that way.

Feel free to PM me. TLS isn't always the best place for people who aren't at the top of the class. Fortunately at a school like CLS, you don't need to be in order to get NYC biglaw (or biglaw in a lot of other places). But your approach should be different from your Kent and Stone peers, and I would love to help you in any way possible. Like I said, I bid very poorly (got a lot of firms i wasn't interested in but not many firms in general) and still ended up with about 15 CBs and several offers. EIP didn't feel stressful. If you have any specific questions, just reach out to me! I'm here to help.

And one final bit of advice to everyone: be kind to each other. EIP for a lot of people is kinda stressful, and you're all going through it together. I think my class did a really tremendous job of being really supportive of each other, and considerate not to make people feel bad. So don't take phone calls in front of people, or talk about what CBs you have or what offers you have (unless someone asks or they're you're really good friend or something). Keep that info to yourself. At the end of the day, if you get 20 offers or 2, you can still only work at one firm. No need to make this process any more difficult for your peers than it needs to be.

Good luck guys! You'll all kill it I'm sure.

Terrific post.

Also here for anyone's questions.

[Anonymous User]

What qualifications do we need to be competitive in the DC market? The type of work I want to do is based there, and I absolutely do not want to do NY corporate work. However, I understand the need for safety and NYC market is a surer bet than DC.

[Anonymous User]

What qualifications do we need to be competitive in the DC market? The type of work I want to do is based there, and I absolutely do not want to do NY corporate work. However, I understand the need for safety and NYC market is a surer bet than DC.

DC's particularly notorious for grades because it has a variety of niche work available, how desirable that niche work is for students with all types of grades, and how few summer slots firms have compared to New York firms.

It depends what you want, if you don't mind giving a few more specifics. If you really want to do FCPA work, you may be able to bid DC if you speak a foreign language fluently and can clearly articulate/demonstrate an interest. The same goes for international trade or what else is similar. It will get easier on you the more it's blatantly obvious on your resume. If you wanted to try for FCPA work and didn't have relevant abilities beyond grades, I'd imagine it would be much harder.

The main thing I want to reiterate is that there aren't many DC firms with even moderately sized summer classes, and the ones with the large classes are grade-selective: Covington, Wilmer, Arnold & Porter, etc. Firms like Steptoe or Fried Frank do great work too, but in much smaller spaces. If your grades are questionable, think hard before you bid Wilmer/etc. Have a clear narrative ready for what you're interested in.

Hope that helps a little. I can follow up if you have other questions.

-A Rising 3L Who Bid DC

[Anonymous User]

[/quote]

DC's particularly notorious for grades because it has a variety of niche work available, how desirable that niche work is for students with all types of grades, and how few summer slots firms have compared to New York firms.

It depends what you want, if you don't mind giving a few more specifics. If you really want to do FCPA work, you may be able to bid DC if you speak a foreign language fluently and can clearly articulate/demonstrate an interest. The same goes for international trade or what else is similar. It will get easier on you the more it's blatantly obvious on your resume. If you wanted to try for FCPA work and didn't have relevant abilities beyond grades, I'd imagine it would be much harder.

The main thing I want to reiterate is that there aren't many DC firms with even moderately sized summer classes, and the ones with the large classes are grade-selective: Covington, Wilmer, Arnold & Porter, etc. Firms like Steptoe or Fried Frank do great work too, but in much smaller spaces. If your grades are questionable, think hard before you bid Wilmer/etc. Have a clear narrative ready for what you're interested in.

Hope that helps a little. I can follow up if you have other questions.

-A Rising 3L Who Bid DC[/quote]

Thanks for this quick reply. I'm interested in administrative/regulatory law and appellate work. I have ties to DC and interesting- though unrelated to law- work experience.

When you say "questionable grades", can you put a range on that? Thanks again for your help. I feel as if I bid NY, even though that may be the safer move, I'm going to hate the work.[quote="Anonymous User"][quote]What qualifications do we need to be competitive in the DC market? The type of work I want to do is based there, and I absolutely do not want to do NY corporate work. However, I understand the need for safety and NYC market is a surer bet than DC.

[Anonymous User]

Never, ever, in any interview, ever, say that you're interested in appellate work. This is the single biggest mistake you can make unless you are a Kent, and even then it's questionable. As an interviewer, I cannot emphasize this enough.

[Anonymous User]

Never, ever, in any interview, ever, say that you're interested in appellate work. This is the single biggest mistake you can make unless you are a Kent, and even then it's questionable. As an interviewer, I cannot emphasize this enough.

Good to note and will not do. Saying that I'm interested in administrative/regulatory litigation- acceptable?

[Anonymous User]

Never, ever, in any interview, ever, say that you're interested in appellate work.

Why is this a bad thing?

[Anonymous User]

Good to note and will not do. Saying that I'm interested in administrative/regulatory litigation- acceptable?

100% acceptable.

Why is this a bad thing?

For the same reason that its bad form (unless you're a billionaire) to say that you want your first car to be a Ferrari.

Newsflash - EVERYONE wants to do appellate work. Even the transactional lawyers (I know that as a transactional lawyer, some of the most fun work I've done was pitching in to consult with our litigators who needed background when writing appellate briefs). That's why only true ninjas get to do it. If you're not a true ninja, you sound spoiled and unrealistic, and it makes the interviewer question how you're going to respond when you get a pile of doc review dumped on your desk (which has a 100% chance of happening to you at some point).

[Anonymous User]

What does it mean for "international focus"? What are the qualities you need to have? Language skills? I'm (likely) below-median and looking for NYC transactional work. I should just focus on V30-50, I assume?

except maybe those with glaringly bad grades

I know this is tough, but what should we consider this to be? Discretionary? Solid Bs?

[Anonymous User]

Thanks for this quick reply. I'm interested in administrative/regulatory law and appellate work. I have ties to DC and interesting- though unrelated to law- work experience.

When you say "questionable grades", can you put a range on that? Thanks again for your help. I feel as if I bid NY, even though that may be the safer move, I'm going to hate the work.

What qualifications do we need to be competitive in the DC market? The type of work I want to do is based there, and I absolutely do not want to do NY corporate work. However, I understand the need for safety and NYC market is a surer bet than DC.

Hey, no problem.

"Questionable grades" varies by firm, but the sort of indigenous DC firms tend to be very grade selective. You should have an Offers by Honors report by now on Symplicity, which can be a rough guide, but for some (Covington and Wilmer in particular) even low Stone won't give you a competitive chance. You're not out, but you're going to have to establish clearly why you want to be at that firm in particular and demonstrate anything you can bring to the table beyond just grades.

There are people who get Covington at low Stone, but they may be atypical and it's not just because they were likeable at the interview. As a side note, Covington actually calls all your references (they ask for three). They're the only firm I can think of that truly cares there.

Like the other guy side, appellate isn't something you should declare, and sadly this is something that likely won't happen without phenomenal grades. DC is the one place where appellate work can have specialists, but all of those people at Gibson, Wilmer, Mayer Brown, etc. DC doing appellate work are coming off clerkships with feeder appellate judges or Justices. They obviously hire people outside of during their clerkships, but if you say you want to do appellate work they may look for potential to land such a clerkship. This is not something you can talk your way into doing by interviewing well. You're not firmly out of doing appellate work - you may be able to get a taste here and there through pro bono, through chance, later in government, or just by litigating for long enough. It just won't be at a dedicated practice group, at least in big law. Sorry about this.

There are wonderful firms in DC that do types of regulatory work. Your typical powerhouses are present, like Hogan and A&P in food and drug type work, but also other great shops like Wiley Rein for telecom and others. My advice to you is really hammering in that narrative on the particular kind of work you want to do. You will get hammered in your interviews on what you want to do and why DC, even though they'll phrase it softly - you need to keep hammering in that this is exactly what you want to do and provide a crystal-clear back story for what led to you wanting that work. If you want to work in the health care space, it's obviously going to help if you did your 1L summer in a related field, worked at a pharmaceutical company, or even did a Biochem major in undergrad. Anything on your resume that can back up your words. If you can do that, you'll outperform your grades.

One last word of warning, don't try to fake things. It sounds easy to throw on a "I love energy regulation" persona for 20 minutes, but these people have done what they do for years and can usually tell sincerity, especially if you haven't done all your homework. If they don't catch you at the screener, they will at the callback, where you'll interview with at least 4 people for 30 minutes each or more.

Pulling for you.

-A Rising 3L Who Bid DC

[Tiago Splitter]

What does it mean for "international focus"? What are the qualities you need to have? Language skills? I'm (likely) below-median and looking for NYC transactional work. I should just focus on V30-50, I assume?

except maybe those with glaringly bad grades

I know this is tough, but what should we consider this to be? Discretionary? Solid Bs?

1. Language skills are good. Clifford Chance is based in London so I think that poster just meant an international background of some kind would help you there.

2. The cutoff is more like V20ish (with at least a couple above V20 in NYC worth bidding) all the way down to V100+. Just get lots of interviews with firms that give lots of offers to non-Stoners.

3. Glaringly bad grades would mean something below 3.0. Bad grades would be like 3.0-3.1. Neither is a death sentence.

--Rising 4L

[Anonymous User]

WLRK took two non-Stones/Kents last year?

[Anonymous User]

WLRK took two non-Stones/Kents last year?

This year's honors report is pretty deceptive; I'd use the previous year's as a guide and take 2014 with a healthy grain of salt. Im not sure what happened but a lot of firms that are traditionally among the more selective posted much lower %'s; some of this is low n, some of it is shady/inaccurate self-reporting by students, some of it is diversity push and an improving market. Firms like Boies Schiller (reported 33%, not sure how), Wachtell, Davis Polk, Cravath, Simpson, ect are not reasonable targets from median and below even if all of these firms are showing several offers to non-honors students. If you have really terrific work experience or diversity it may be worth bidding some of these on a case by case basis, but in past years keep in mind they have been 95%+ honors.

[Anonymous User]

Can't put Simpson and DPW in the same category as Wachtell or Cravath, just to be clear. For the former group, I know at least four non-Stone people who got offers to DPW, for exampplary anecdote. Non diverse and no special work experience. You're prob wasting time with the latter category if you're not Stone. Firms like DPW, Simpson, Skadden, and Paul Weiss are attainable reaches for median students (although a large majority is honors still). I'm not saying everyone should bid them (you shouldn't) but can be worth picking up interviews. Wachtell and Cravath are not.

[Anonymous User]

where can we find previous years' honors list?

[smaug]

Can't put Simpson and DPW in the same category as Wachtell or Cravath, just to be clear. For the former group, I know at least four non-Stone people who got offers to DPW, for exampplary anecdote. Non diverse and no special work experience. You're prob wasting time with the latter category if you're not Stone. Firms like DPW, Simpson, Skadden, and Paul Weiss are attainable reaches for median students (although a large majority is honors still). I'm not saying everyone should bid them (you shouldn't) but can be worth picking up interviews. Wachtell and Cravath are not.

firms like DPW, Simpson, Skadden, and Paul Weiss are attainable reaches for median students (although a large majority is honors still). I'm not saying everyone should bid them (you shouldn't) but can be worth picking up interviews. Wachtell and Cravath are not.

CLS alum here:

Hiring is a moving target, but, FWIW, DPW and PW were not reachable for median students for some years prior. Yes, some median student might have gotten offers from them, but unless you're a stellar candidate, I wouldn't have recommended using a bid on them. Maybe that's less true now, but I'd be wary and temper expectations. It's harder to say whether DPW and STB are expecting continued growth at the level they had last year.

Frankly, I think you saw some of those firms have an unusually great year (or a great couple of years) and they changed hiring practices a bit to get more bodies.

It's also hard to tell with a firm like PW where the non-Stone people are coming from/going to. Are they mainly for the corporate group? Are they spread out evenly? I'd guess it's the former and not the latter, but I could be wrong.

I also hate to push back against the good vibes, but you should keep in mind that (1) a good number of people do strike out and (2) even if the average poster on this website claims to have had 10 offers (and I'm sure some did) that isn't the modal outcome of EIP. I'm sure you were given the numbers for last year. For my year, it was about a small section worth of students who did EIP and still struck out. I think the modal outcome was something like three offers. For every person who has many great options at median, there's a Stone scholar strikeout. (and yes, I can think of a Kent scholar strikeout as well)

I don't say that to make you despair or give up. I say that so you take bidding seriously, and so that you're forced to be honest with yourself about your interviewing ability. I really wish that I had done more practice interviews/interview prep before EIP, and I would encourage everyone—whether you're Kent, Stone, median, or below, to spend some serious time getting ready for interviews. And, just because it happened to many people I know—don't assume that you're a great interviewer because you have a good callback rate. Things get harder at the callback stage. Put yourself in a position to succeed and to convert those callbacks into offers.

[Anonymous User]

So what are some things we should really consider for interviews? I can't do anymore practice interviews since I am doing an internship outside of the country, so anything would help.

Also, I'm wondering, how many of the 13% or so who did not get firms at EIP got them through mass mail and/or after EIP?