Cornell 2015 AJF/BOJF/DCJF/OCI

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hephaestus
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Re: Cornell 2015 AJF/BOJF/DCJF/OCI

Postby hephaestus » Thu Jun 11, 2015 10:43 pm

runinthefront wrote:
tyrant_flycatcher wrote:Does anyone else feel like GPA isn't as important as they thought it would be? I have a 3.63, but I don't feel like I'm in a much better position than someone with a 3.43. I'll be competing against students who have my kind of GPA, and someone with a 3.43 will be competing against students who have his/her kind of GPA. It seems to me that I'm just as likely to strike out. I would only gain an advantage if we bid on the same firms, but that seems unlikely given the difference in GPA. If I don't care about Vault rankings and just want an offer at a market-paying firm, what does top 1/3 get me that median doesn't? Something tells me there's an easy answer out there, but I don't see it.


1) you're in great shape--crafting your bid list appropriately will be key. You have to remember that those with a 3.43 will be reaches for your target firms--just likely you'll be reaches for some V10s. If you "just" want a job, you could probably bid hella conservatively and virtually guarantee an offer from a market paying place. I mean, it's all up to you, really.

Yeah, this is more or less right. The thing with being top 1/3 is that you'll be in the sweet spot for a few firms that are grade selective but not only targeting the top 10% (e.g. Jones Day, Fried Frank, Kirkland, Latham), and then you'll likely have a better screener ----> CB ratio at firms that target high 3.4s/low 3.5s. The combination of this puts you in a really good position for many firms that have large class sizes in NY, and those firms are especially worth targeting because they generally have better CB ----> Offer ratios. So overall being in the top 1/3 is more of an advantage than it first appears based off of looking at GPA medians.

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Re: Cornell 2015 AJF/BOJF/DCJF/OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jun 11, 2015 11:00 pm

ImNoScar wrote:Yeah, this is more or less right. The thing with being top 1/3 is that you'll be in the sweet spot for a few firms that are grade selective but not only targeting the top 10% (e.g. Jones Day, Fried Frank, Kirkland, Latham), and then you'll likely have a better screener ----> CB ratio at firms that target high 3.4s/low 3.5s. The combination of this puts you in a really good position for many firms that have large class sizes in NY, and those firms are especially worth targeting because they generally have better CB ----> Offer ratios. So overall being in the top 1/3 is more of an advantage than it first appears based off of looking at GPA medians.


With this in mind, what should someone on the lower end of the 3.5-3.6 cohort be feeling? For these types of students (at some roughly above median but maybe median but who really knows point), is it then just coming down to interviewing skills and softs because they're all competing with each other for the same firms? If the goal then is not preftige but to maximize callbacks, would it make more sense to bid as much flexible as possible?

I'm sitting on a 3.52 with a pretty sizable split between semester GPAs (low first, high second) so I'm just trying to get a gauge of where I stand at this point pre-journals and how that should affect my bidding.

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Re: Cornell 2015 AJF/BOJF/DCJF/OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jun 11, 2015 11:18 pm

With this in mind, what should someone on the lower end of the 3.5-3.6 cohort be feeling? For these types of students (at some roughly above median but maybe median but who really knows point), is it then just coming down to interviewing skills and softs because they're all competing with each other for the same firms? If the goal then is not preftige but to maximize callbacks, would it make more sense to bid as much flexible as possible?

I'm sitting on a 3.52 with a pretty sizable split between semester GPAs (low first, high second) so I'm just trying to get a gauge of where I stand at this point pre-journals and how that should affect my bidding.


I'm in a similar position with a 3.50, but I have no major hooks that would set me apart from other candidates in that range(unless I write on to LR). Thus, I'm probably going to pursue a conservative bidding strategy where I get as many screeners as possible with the big NYC firms that have average CB GPAs in the 3.40-3.55 range, large summer classes, and pay market(there's a lot of those). No V10 hail marys or gambles with 20-slot firms that take 3-4 SAs for me.

As for getting the CBs, I think interviews will be absolutely key. These firms will see dozens of people with similar stats to us, so that's the way to set yourself apart.

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Re: Cornell 2015 AJF/BOJF/DCJF/OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jun 11, 2015 11:38 pm

Sitting right under a 3.3, URM. Best strategy to mass-mail NYC and interview well? Should I just bid the biggest non-super-selective NYC firms?

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Re: Cornell 2015 AJF/BOJF/DCJF/OCI

Postby runinthefront » Thu Jun 11, 2015 11:51 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Sitting right under a 3.3, URM. Best strategy to mass-mail NYC and interview well? Should I just bid the biggest non-super-selective NYC firms?


Yeah. Also, your bidlist needs to be constructed well, since you're going to want as many interviews as you can get your hands on with the firms most likely to give you a CB. You should be prepared to mass-mail the shit out of the firms not coming to AJF, as well as emailing the firms on your list that you couldnt snag an interview with to see if they can squeeze you into a slot at AJF. Also reach out to firms wherever your home market is. I would also practice interviewing a lot, since that's going to be the biggest swing factor.

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Re: Cornell 2015 AJF/BOJF/DCJF/OCI

Postby King Cayuga » Fri Jun 12, 2015 12:07 am

Anonymous User wrote:Sitting right under a 3.3, URM. Best strategy to mass-mail NYC and interview well? Should I just bid the biggest non-super-selective NYC firms?


That's what I would do in your position, but don't worry so much about the size of the firm. I would bid a small firm with a lower callback gpa than a large firm with a higher gpa though; you need to be more concerned about getting callbacks at all than getting callbacks at firms with big summer associate numbers.

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Re: Cornell 2015 AJF/BOJF/DCJF/OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 12, 2015 11:37 pm

Still worth it to do AJF if I already have an unofficial firm offer? Currently working as a summer associate at a firm that has been amazing thus far and its been confirmed that associates and hiring partners feel the same way about me.

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Re: Cornell 2015 AJF/BOJF/DCJF/OCI

Postby runinthefront » Sat Jun 13, 2015 12:30 am

Anonymous User wrote:Still worth it to do AJF if I already have an unofficial firm offer? Currently working as a summer associate at a firm that has been amazing thus far and its been confirmed that associates and hiring partners feel the same way about me.


if u think hard you can probably figure this answer out in your own

Edit: sorry for being sassy. But yeah, although you love the firm and would take the firm you're at over any coming to AJF, unless they offer you officially before AJF, I would still do it. What are the downsides of doing AJF? Do they outweigh the benefits? I doubt it

Now, if this is your dream firm
And you get an offer like the week before AJF or something, then I would talk to CSO about dropping out of AJF. I know that some 2Ls did that last year for sure.

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Re: Cornell 2015 AJF/BOJF/DCJF/OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jun 14, 2015 9:04 pm

I'd like any advice on bidding multiple markets, namely southern California and NYC. I have a 3.7 and weak ties to SoCal (close friends and extended family, and even though I lived near the west coast, it was in the pacific northwest). It seems like there will be enough people bidding SoCal firms that I'd have to use really high bids to get them, and I'm wondering if that's too risky.

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Re: Cornell 2015 AJF/BOJF/DCJF/OCI

Postby runinthefront » Sun Jun 14, 2015 9:15 pm

I wouldn't bid a 50/50 split of SoCal/NYC, but IMO your gpa is high enough that I think you could probably use up some bids on SoCal without risking not getting a job (assuming youre a halfway decent interviewer), but then again, we're both 1Ls, so what do I know?

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Re: Cornell 2015 AJF/BOJF/DCJF/OCI

Postby King Cayuga » Mon Jun 15, 2015 11:40 am

What other sites are people using besides Vault and Chambers Associate? I'm taking notes on different firms and it seems that all of the ones I've looked at so far somehow have great cultures and supportive associate-partner relationships. I can't help but feel that the information easily available online is heavily sanitized.

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Re: Cornell 2015 AJF/BOJF/DCJF/OCI

Postby hephaestus » Mon Jun 15, 2015 11:59 am

Anonymous User wrote:I'd like any advice on bidding multiple markets, namely southern California and NYC. I have a 3.7 and weak ties to SoCal (close friends and extended family, and even though I lived near the west coast, it was in the pacific northwest). It seems like there will be enough people bidding SoCal firms that I'd have to use really high bids to get them, and I'm wondering if that's too risky.

If you want to be really conservative about it, you can almost exclusively bid NYC and then mass mail SoCal firms in early July. However, with a 3.7 you should be fine in NY even without a ton of screeners, but I would probably air on the side of being safe about it.
It also depends on if a firm allows you to interview for multiple offices. If you can interview in multiple offices (e.g. GDC), I would just interview with NY at AJF and mass mail the California office. If you can only interview with one office (e.g. Jones Day) then I think you can be safe allocating 1-2 high bids per day to California offices of the firms.
How many SoCal firms are coming to AJF this year?

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Re: Cornell 2015 AJF/BOJF/DCJF/OCI

Postby hephaestus » Mon Jun 15, 2015 12:04 pm

King Cayuga wrote:What other sites are people using besides Vault and Chambers Associate? I'm taking notes on different firms and it seems that all of the ones I've looked at so far somehow have great cultures and supportive associate-partner relationships. I can't help but feel that the information easily available online is heavily sanitized.

I would also recommend looking at Chambers and Partners to get a feel for the type of work that a firm actually does. Almost all firms claim to be full service, but in reality a firm that claims to do all sorts of corporate work may in actuality mostly do Capital Markets, or their bankruptcy department might be only creditor side etc. It will be helpful at you at AJF to articulate not only that you want to do corporate or lit, but that you want to do the particular type of work the firm does.
As far as culture, firm website can be surprisingly helpful to figure out important key details (e.g. if they are free market, or if there is a rotation system). For more specific anecdotes, search for threads from previous years from people deciding between particular firms, and you will likely see some feedback by people with first hand experience.
Also, closer to AJF you will get email addresses of 3Ls that were at firms you are interviewing at, so you can ask them specific questions, including about things firms may be hesitant to share.

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Re: Cornell 2015 AJF/BOJF/DCJF/OCI

Postby King Cayuga » Mon Jun 15, 2015 12:45 pm

ImNoScar wrote:
King Cayuga wrote:What other sites are people using besides Vault and Chambers Associate? I'm taking notes on different firms and it seems that all of the ones I've looked at so far somehow have great cultures and supportive associate-partner relationships. I can't help but feel that the information easily available online is heavily sanitized.

I would also recommend looking at Chambers and Partners to get a feel for the type of work that a firm actually does. Almost all firms claim to be full service, but in reality a firm that claims to do all sorts of corporate work may in actuality mostly do Capital Markets, or their bankruptcy department might be only creditor side etc. It will be helpful at you at AJF to articulate not only that you want to do corporate or lit, but that you want to do the particular type of work the firm does.
As far as culture, firm website can be surprisingly helpful to figure out important key details (e.g. if they are free market, or if there is a rotation system). For more specific anecdotes, search for threads from previous years from people deciding between particular firms, and you will likely see some feedback by people with first hand experience.
Also, closer to AJF you will get email addresses of 3Ls that were at firms you are interviewing at, so you can ask them specific questions, including about things firms may be hesitant to share.


Ah, that's interesting. Thanks. I'll definitely need to look at that.

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Re: Cornell 2015 AJF/BOJF/DCJF/OCI

Postby tyrant_flycatcher » Mon Jun 15, 2015 7:45 pm

Aside from NALP and the website of the law firm itself, is there anywhere else I can go to find summer class sizes by office? Sometimes NALP only lists class sizes firm-wide.

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Re: Cornell 2015 AJF/BOJF/DCJF/OCI

Postby runinthefront » Mon Jun 15, 2015 7:51 pm

tyrant_flycatcher wrote:Aside from NALP and the website of the law firm itself, is there anywhere else I can go to find summer class sizes by office? Sometimes NALP only lists class sizes firm-wide.


viewtopic.php?t=239113

this may help a little bit.

A large chunk of firms disclose firm data via NALP. Chances are, if you can't find it on NALP, the legal recruiters just aren't releasing the data

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Re: Cornell 2015 AJF/BOJF/DCJF/OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:56 pm

Can I get some feedback on this bid list. CSO told me my Day 2 was too conservative so I changed it up a little bit. GPA 3.51. All NYC unless noted.

Day 1:
1. Proskauer Rose (20) (3.38-3.55.367)
2. Shearman & Sterling (60) (3.02-3.48-3.77)
3. Kasowtiz Benson Torres (20) (3.31-3.59-3.88)
4. Cahill Gordon (60) (3.19-3.44-3.65)
5. Stroock & Stroock (20) (3.15-3.28-3.39)
6. Fried Frank (40) (3.35-3.58-3.78)
7. Jones Day (40) (3.24-3.55-3.88)
8. Seward & Kissel (20) (3.05-3.49-3.97)
9. MoFo (20) (3.28-3.58-3.71)
10. Reed Smith (20) (3.05-3.29-3.59)
11. Schulte Roth & Zabel (40) (3.29-3.46-3.75)
12. Greenberg Taurig (20) (3.12-3.32-3.59)
13. Milbank (20) (3.43-3.6-3.88)
14. Curtis, Mallet-Prevost, Colt & Mosle (20) (3.10-3.20-3.29)
15. Winston & Strawn (40) (no data)
16. Chadbourne and Parke (20) (3.48-3.55-3.76)
17. Pillsbury (20) (no data)
18. Carter, Ledyard & Milburn (20) (3.21-3.23-3.25)

Day 2:
1. Foley (20) (NYC – 3.29-3.37-3.48) (midwestern office. MKE or CHI)
2. Hogan Lovells (40) (3.38-3.45-3.65)
3. Linklaters (40) (3.24-3.49-3.88)
4. Orrick Herrington (20) (3.25-3.35-3.45)
5. Weil, Gotshal & Manges (40) (3.24-3.57-3.91)
6. Dechert (60) (3.16-3.54-3.90)
7. Caldwalader (80) (3.21-3.51-3.81)
8. Paul Weiss (40) (3.24-3.68-4.01)
9. Herbert Smith (20) (3.10-3.43-3.64)
10. Kaye Scholer (20) (3.25-3.35-348)
11. Paul Hastings (80) (3.29-3.61-4.01)
12. White & Case (40) (3.35-3.57-3.81)
13. Goodwin Proctor (20) (3.17-3.37-3.49)
14. Wilkie Farr (40) (3.37-3.56-3.91)
15. Epstein Becker (20) (3.21-3.29-3.34)
16. Sidley Austin (3.43-3.62-3.91)
17. Duval & Stachenfled (3.16-3.31-3.54)

Day 3:
1. Bryan Cave (20) (3.06-3.25-3.43)
2. Clifford Chance (80) (3.24-3.56-3.92)
3. Ropes & Gray (20) (no data)
4. Cooley (20) (3.28-3.40-3.48)
5. Hunton & Williams (20) (no data)
6. Crowell & Moring (20) (no data)
7. Dentons (20) (no data)
8. Pepper Hamilton (20) (no data)
9. Haynes And Boone (no data)
10. Fox Rothschild (20) (3.05-3.13-3.21)

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Re: Cornell 2015 AJF/BOJF/DCJF/OCI

Postby hephaestus » Tue Jun 16, 2015 11:14 am

runinthefront wrote:
tyrant_flycatcher wrote:Aside from NALP and the website of the law firm itself, is there anywhere else I can go to find summer class sizes by office? Sometimes NALP only lists class sizes firm-wide.


viewtopic.php?t=239113

this may help a little bit.

A large chunk of firms disclose firm data via NALP. Chances are, if you can't find it on NALP, the legal recruiters just aren't releasing the data

Yeah, your best bet in this scenario is to look at the number of new associates in the particular office and try to extrapolate from there. Obviously, this number can be a bit off, but its better than nothing.

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Re: Cornell 2015 AJF/BOJF/DCJF/OCI

Postby King Cayuga » Tue Jun 16, 2015 12:54 pm

In case anyone was wondering about the firms with no historical callback data, I spoke with CSO and got the following info:

- Pillsbury is moderately selective(3.5 something average callback GPA)
- Winston & Strawn is at the upper end of flexible(around 3.4 average)
- K&L Gates is flexible
- Every firm on Wednesday with no data is flexible(except for Ropes Boston, which is apparently super grade-sensitive). Of course, the Wednesday firms probably aren't going to be handing out callbacks like candy given their generally small summer class sizes, but who knows.

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Re: Cornell 2015 AJF/BOJF/DCJF/OCI

Postby hephaestus » Tue Jun 16, 2015 1:49 pm

King Cayuga wrote:In case anyone was wondering about the firms with no historical callback data, I spoke with CSO and got the following info:

- Pillsbury is moderately selective(3.5 something average callback GPA)
- Winston & Strawn is at the upper end of flexible(around 3.4 average)
- K&L Gates is flexible
- Every firm on Wednesday with no data is flexible(except for Ropes Boston, which is apparently super grade-sensitive). Of course, the Wednesday firms probably aren't going to be handing out callbacks like candy given their generally small summer class sizes, but who knows.

To give more context on Ropes, their median was a 3.81 for the class of 2015 AJF. However, judging from experience with our class for anyone considering bidding them they are more flexible with GPA if you have solid Boston ties (but still I think generally top 30% is the floor) and they are also willing to look past a lack of Boston ties if you are 3.8+.

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Re: Cornell 2015 AJF/BOJF/DCJF/OCI

Postby jasonredranger » Tue Jun 16, 2015 5:56 pm

Does anyone know how realistic Latham London is? What they look for in candidates? I've got heavy ties there, I'm interested in cap markets, and I'm at the callback average... but I'm a K-JD, so I don't have much of a resume, let alone one with relevant work experience. Trying to set up permanent roots there. Any info is appreciated.

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Re: Cornell 2015 AJF/BOJF/DCJF/OCI

Postby Lavitz » Tue Jun 16, 2015 6:54 pm

jasonredranger wrote:Does anyone know how realistic Latham London is? What they look for in candidates? I've got heavy ties there, I'm interested in cap markets, and I'm at the callback average... but I'm a K-JD, so I don't have much of a resume, let alone one with relevant work experience. Trying to set up permanent roots there. Any info is appreciated.

I'm not there personally, but know who is. Not too unrealistic. PM'd you.

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Re: Cornell 2015 AJF/BOJF/DCJF/OCI

Postby Roger Sterling » Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:44 am

3.64, solid work experience in financial sector (summers and during senior year undergrad), looking to do corporate/M&A in NYC

Advice??

Monday

1. Latham & Watkins 3.45 - 3.63 - 3.88 (18)
2. Shearman & Sterling 3.02 - 3.48 - 3.77 (60)
3. Cahill, Gordon & Reindel 3.19 - 3.44 - 3.65 (60)
4. Davis Polk & Wardell 3.24 - 3.73 - 4.01 (60)
5. Milbank, Tweed, Hadley & McCloy 3.43 - 3.60 - 3.88 (20)
6. Morrison & Foerster 3.28 - 3.58 - 3.71 (20)
7. Freshfields Bruckhaus Deringer 3.43 - 3.64 - 3.92 (60)
8. Proskauer Rose 3.38 - 3.55 - 3.67 (20)
9. Schulte Roth & Zabel 3.29 - 3.46 - 3.75 (40)
10. Seward & Kissel 3.05 - 3.49 - 3.97 (20)
11. Fried Frank Harris Shriver & Jacobson 3.35 - 3.58 - 3.78 (40)
12. Stroock Stroock & Lavan 3.15 - 3.28 - 3.39 (20)
13. Pillsbury Winthrop Shaw Pittman 3.34 - 3.58 - 3.85 (20)

Tuesday

1. Kirkland & Ellis 3.42 - 3.67 - 3.91 (20)
2. Sidley Austin 3.43 - 3.62 - 3.91 (20)
3. Simpson Thacher & Bartlett 3.05 - 3.73 - 4.01 (60)
4. Weil, Gotshal & Manges 3.24 - 3.57 - 3.91 (40)
5. Cadawalader Wickersham & Taft 3.21 - 3.51 - 3.81 (80)
6. Wilson Sonsini Goodrich & Rosati 3.25 - 3.53 - 3.81 (40)
7. Linklaters 3.24 - 3.49 - 3.88 (40)
8. Paul, Weiss, Rifkind, Wharton & Garrison 3.24 - 3.67 - 4.01 (40)
9. White & Case 3.35 - 3.57 - 3.81 (40)
10. Paul Hastings 3.29 - 3.61 - 4.01 (80)
11. Willkie Farr & Gallagher 3.37 - 3.56 - 3.91 (40)
12. Dechert 3.16 - 3.54 - 3.90 (60)
13. K&L Gates 3.43 - 3.57 - 3.67 (20)
14. Kaye Scholer 3.24 - 3.35 - 3.48 (20)

Wednesday

1. Clifford Chance 3.24 - 3.56 - 3.92 (80)
2. Cooley 3.28 - 3.40 - 3.48 (20)
3. Ropes & Gray 3.60 - 3.80 - 4.03 (20)

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Re: Cornell 2015 AJF/BOJF/DCJF/OCI

Postby Yea All Right » Wed Jun 17, 2015 7:11 pm

King Cayuga wrote:In case anyone was wondering about the firms with no historical callback data, I spoke with CSO and got the following info:

- Pillsbury is moderately selective(3.5 something average callback GPA)
- Winston & Strawn is at the upper end of flexible(around 3.4 average)
- K&L Gates is flexible
- Every firm on Wednesday with no data is flexible(except for Ropes Boston, which is apparently super grade-sensitive). Of course, the Wednesday firms probably aren't going to be handing out callbacks like candy given their generally small summer class sizes, but who knows.


Thanks for the GPA info. Almost a full third of the firms coming to AJF don't have any.

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Re: Cornell 2015 AJF/BOJF/DCJF/OCI

Postby -dasein- » Wed Jun 17, 2015 7:51 pm

Checking in. Thanks for setting up the thread Lavitz.




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