Cornell 2015 AJF/BOJF/DCJF/OCI

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King Cayuga
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Re: Cornell 2015 AJF/BOJF/DCJF/OCI

Postby King Cayuga » Mon Jun 08, 2015 9:13 pm

runinthefront wrote:
King Cayuga wrote:Most of the Wednesday firms have no callback info, and there are far fewer scheduled for that day than Monday and Tuesday. Is there something different about these firms, and should we still plan on making 15 bids for that day?

If you look up many of the firms/conduct research, you'll see that many of them are more regional(-esque) firms. Actually, many (Perkins Coie, Haynes & Boone) are really strong firms, it's just that their HQ are not in NY. Some of these firms also pay below-market.

I don't know if I would suggest purposely under-bidding though, unless your GPA is super high + you're not particularly weird + you have an offer in hand. I also don't know if bidding all 15 is necessary, but I'm sure Lavitz can speak to that.


Interesting. Maybe I can investigate during work tomorrow! :D

Bure96
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Re: Cornell 2015 AJF/BOJF/DCJF/OCI

Postby Bure96 » Mon Jun 08, 2015 9:19 pm

Wol wrote:If you're not on a journal at all, are you pretty much doomed you think? Seems like the journals are so large that it's an anomaly if you're not on one. If it's not complete doom, should you mentally apply a downward adjustment to your GPA when considering callback trend average info?

I graduated a couple of years ago. I was not on any journal or LII (didn't even complete the writing competition) and I had median grades, which might have even been a bit below median after 1L year. White male, no languages or anything. I had 15 OCI interviews, 7 callbacks, and got 2 offers. I've always been a pretty good interviewer, though. Grades and law review certainly help, but you are in no way doomed if you don't get on law review or a journal, even if you're not in the top 30% grade-wise.

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Re: Cornell 2015 AJF/BOJF/DCJF/OCI

Postby Lavitz » Mon Jun 08, 2015 9:53 pm

runinthefront wrote:
King Cayuga wrote:Most of the Wednesday firms have no callback info, and there are far fewer scheduled for that day than Monday and Tuesday. Is there something different about these firms, and should we still plan on making 15 bids for that day?

If you look up many of the firms/conduct research, you'll see that many of them are more regional(-esque) firms. Actually, many (Perkins Coie, Haynes & Boone) are really strong firms, it's just that their HQ are not in NY. Some of these firms also pay below-market.

I don't know if I would suggest purposely under-bidding though, unless your GPA is super high + you're not particularly weird + you have an offer in hand. I also don't know if bidding all 15 is necessary, but I'm sure Lavitz can speak to that.

I only bid 7 of them. But if you're median, or below median, or expect to mass-mail for any reason, I don't see why you wouldn't bid on every firm you'd consider working at just for the sake of being able to tell the firms that you bid on them if you reach out to them later.

You probably won't get more than 3 interviews that day anyway, so it's not like you should worry about having too many interviews in one day. I actually didn't get any. And scheduling early callbacks on that Wednesday as opposed to Thursday isn't going to make a difference, so there's no reason to skip Wednesday.

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Re: Cornell 2015 AJF/BOJF/DCJF/OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jun 09, 2015 11:42 am

Would anyone be so kind as to know/post what the bottom of the class cut offs are? I did really poorly and not sure what to even do in regards for AJF and stuff.

Above a 3.0, but below a 3.2 :? Feeling doomed...

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runinthefront
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Re: Cornell 2015 AJF/BOJF/DCJF/OCI

Postby runinthefront » Tue Jun 09, 2015 12:28 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Would anyone be so kind as to know/post what the bottom of the class cut offs are? I did really poorly and not sure what to even do in regards for AJF and stuff.

Above a 3.0, but below a 3.2 :? Feeling doomed...

I would think you're definitely in the bottom 20%, but by no means are you doomed. For one thing, you atleast have a 3.0. Bid conservatively and make sure you bid on everything for day 3. If you're not from NYC/DC/or Socal, I'd also mail the shit out of firms in cities you have ties to.

If you're from NYC or DC, I'd still mail all the firm's that aren't coming to AJF.

You need to make sure your interview game is on point and you show up to AJF clean and SHARP. Practice alot. I think if you do all that you're likely fine dude. The goal is a job that pays enough to service any LS debt, right? There's at most 5 places that do better than Cornell in that regard. At most

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King Cayuga
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Re: Cornell 2015 AJF/BOJF/DCJF/OCI

Postby King Cayuga » Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:14 pm

runinthefront wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Would anyone be so kind as to know/post what the bottom of the class cut offs are? I did really poorly and not sure what to even do in regards for AJF and stuff.

Above a 3.0, but below a 3.2 :? Feeling doomed...

I would think you're definitely in the bottom 20%, but by no means are you doomed. For one thing, you atleast have a 3.0. Bid conservatively and make sure you bid on everything for day 3. If you're not from NYC/DC/or Socal, I'd also mail the shit out of firms in cities you have ties to.

If you're from NYC or DC, I'd still mail all the firm's that aren't coming to AJF.

You need to make sure your interview game is on point and you show up to AJF clean and SHARP. Practice alot. I think if you do all that you're likely fine dude. The goal is a job that pays enough to service any LS debt, right? There's at most 5 places that do better than Cornell in that regard. At most


To add a bit to this, if you comb through every firm on Symplicity there will be multiple ones on each day which will give people with your GPA a serious look. You should be able to get interviews with most of them if you bid them high, since pretty much everyone who is at least relatively near median and up will be bidding those firms low if at all. Above all, interviews will be key.

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Re: Cornell 2015 AJF/BOJF/DCJF/OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:54 pm

Previous Anon.

Thanks for the replies. Definitely uplifting. I know I've got an uphill battle, but definitely gonna do everything I can.

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Re: Cornell 2015 AJF/BOJF/DCJF/OCI

Postby tyrant_flycatcher » Wed Jun 10, 2015 7:21 am

Is the DC Job Fair going to pick up or what? I only see three firms listed.

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King Cayuga
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Re: Cornell 2015 AJF/BOJF/DCJF/OCI

Postby King Cayuga » Wed Jun 10, 2015 9:53 am

When I look back at the callback data given to students before last year's AJF it seems like the average GPAs for most firms has increased(i.e. they gave callbacks to higher-ranked students during AJF 2014 than AJF 2013). Is this just noise or should it influence bidding strategies?

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Re: Cornell 2015 AJF/BOJF/DCJF/OCI

Postby Lavitz » Wed Jun 10, 2015 11:25 am

tyrant_flycatcher wrote:Is the DC Job Fair going to pick up or what? I only see three firms listed.

What you see is what you get. Last year it was only 3 firms. Then I think Mayer Brown backed out and there were only two.

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runinthefront
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Re: Cornell 2015 AJF/BOJF/DCJF/OCI

Postby runinthefront » Wed Jun 10, 2015 11:34 am

King Cayuga wrote:When I look back at the callback data given to students before last year's AJF it seems like the average GPAs for most firms has increased(i.e. they gave callbacks to higher-ranked students during AJF 2014 than AJF 2013). Is this just noise or should it influence bidding strategies?


Professors were given more flexibility and started grading closer to 3.5 than 3.35 a few years ago and my guess is that it took firms 1-2 years to notice. Also, once again, the cutoffs for top 5 and 10 percent are higher this year. I wouldn't let the 2013 data affect my bidding except for like idk confirming how flexible a firm is or making a 2-year average that probably gives a more realistic view of how grade sensitive these firms are

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King Cayuga
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Re: Cornell 2015 AJF/BOJF/DCJF/OCI

Postby King Cayuga » Wed Jun 10, 2015 11:55 am

runinthefront wrote:
King Cayuga wrote:When I look back at the callback data given to students before last year's AJF it seems like the average GPAs for most firms has increased(i.e. they gave callbacks to higher-ranked students during AJF 2014 than AJF 2013). Is this just noise or should it influence bidding strategies?


Professors were given more flexibility and started grading closer to 3.5 than 3.35 a few years ago and my guess is that it took firms 1-2 years to notice. Also, once again, the cutoffs for top 5 and 10 percent are higher this year. I wouldn't let the 2013 data affect my bidding except for like idk confirming how flexible a firm is or making a 2-year average that probably gives a more realistic view of how grade sensitive these firms are


Makes sense. Also:

Hi everyone:

Just to clarify, this call for submissions does not pertain to Note Test entries submitted for the Writing Competition.


:lol:

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Lavitz
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Re: Cornell 2015 AJF/BOJF/DCJF/OCI

Postby Lavitz » Wed Jun 10, 2015 12:32 pm

King Cayuga wrote:
Hi everyone:

Just to clarify, this call for submissions does not pertain to Note Test entries submitted for the Writing Competition.


:lol:

Seriously, lol at whoever in your class thought it meant you could publish your note from the writing comp.

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Re: Cornell 2015 AJF/BOJF/DCJF/OCI

Postby tyrant_flycatcher » Wed Jun 10, 2015 7:09 pm

Lavitz wrote:
tyrant_flycatcher wrote:Is the DC Job Fair going to pick up or what? I only see three firms listed.

What you see is what you get. Last year it was only 3 firms. Then I think Mayer Brown backed out and there were only two.


Well then. Calling it a "fair" is a bit generous. DC Job Get-Together . . . yeah, let's go with that.

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Re: Cornell 2015 AJF/BOJF/DCJF/OCI

Postby runthetrap1990 » Wed Jun 10, 2015 9:36 pm

tyrant_flycatcher wrote:
Lavitz wrote:
tyrant_flycatcher wrote:Is the DC Job Fair going to pick up or what? I only see three firms listed.

What you see is what you get. Last year it was only 3 firms. Then I think Mayer Brown backed out and there were only two.


Well then. Calling it a "fair" is a bit generous. DC Job Get-Together . . . yeah, let's go with that.


The DC Combine.

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King Cayuga
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Re: Cornell 2015 AJF/BOJF/DCJF/OCI

Postby King Cayuga » Thu Jun 11, 2015 10:23 am

Quick question about NALP information: I'm looking at SA info for firms and they have the number of SAs for 2013 and 2014, along with an "expected" number for 2015. Should we take that number at face value or at least assume that the number of SAs they took for this summer was very close to that number?

Also, what should be made of firms with significant variations in the number of SAs? Dechert, for example, has jumped from 17 to 11 to 24 in the past three years.

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Re: Cornell 2015 AJF/BOJF/DCJF/OCI

Postby runinthefront » Thu Jun 11, 2015 10:39 am

King Cayuga wrote:Quick question about NALP information: I'm looking at SA info for firms and they have the number of SAs for 2013 and 2014, along with an "expected" number for 2015. Should we take that number at face value or at least assume that the number of SAs they took for this summer was very close to that number?

Also, what should be made of firms with significant variations in the number of SAs? Dechert, for example, has jumped from 17 to 11 to 24 in the past three years.


I would assume the same or a higher number of SA positions this year. Remember that 2010-2012 wasn't that long ago (where many firms either canceled their summer programs or no-offered 50% or worse), and firms are still rebounding from that. I'm fairly sure Corp work is hot right now across the board and I know that (first hand, not tls hivemind) many firms are looking to at least slightly increase class sizes

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Re: Cornell 2015 AJF/BOJF/DCJF/OCI

Postby King Cayuga » Thu Jun 11, 2015 10:52 am

runinthefront wrote:
King Cayuga wrote:Quick question about NALP information: I'm looking at SA info for firms and they have the number of SAs for 2013 and 2014, along with an "expected" number for 2015. Should we take that number at face value or at least assume that the number of SAs they took for this summer was very close to that number?

Also, what should be made of firms with significant variations in the number of SAs? Dechert, for example, has jumped from 17 to 11 to 24 in the past three years.


I would assume the same or a higher number of SA positions this year. Remember that 2010-2012 wasn't that long ago (where many firms either canceled their summer programs or no-offered 50% or worse), and firms are still rebounding from that. I'm fairly sure Corp work is hot right now across the board and I know that (first hand, not tls hivemind) many firms are looking to at least slightly increase class sizes


Thanks! I'm interested in NY transactional work, so I'm glad to hear that. I noticed that many corporate-heavy firms like Fried Frank have significantly increased their SA classes from 2013-15, so with dealmaking at record highs right now(http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/05/29/investment-banking-scorecard-idUSL5N0YK29T20150529) it makes sense to expect that their summer classes will expand further.

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Re: Cornell 2015 AJF/BOJF/DCJF/OCI

Postby Lavitz » Thu Jun 11, 2015 11:09 am

King Cayuga wrote:Quick question about NALP information: I'm looking at SA info for firms and they have the number of SAs for 2013 and 2014, along with an "expected" number for 2015. Should we take that number at face value or at least assume that the number of SAs they took for this summer was very close to that number?.

I can verify that the number for my firm is exactly the number of SAs that we have. They've clearly updated it from the previous expected figures.

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Re: Cornell 2015 AJF/BOJF/DCJF/OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jun 11, 2015 1:40 pm

Sorry to jam this up with a particularized question, but where do you think a 3.73 puts me percentile wise?

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Lavitz
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Re: Cornell 2015 AJF/BOJF/DCJF/OCI

Postby Lavitz » Thu Jun 11, 2015 1:46 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Sorry to jam this up with a particularized question, but where do you think a 3.73 puts me percentile wise?

20%?

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Re: Cornell 2015 AJF/BOJF/DCJF/OCI

Postby runinthefront » Thu Jun 11, 2015 2:28 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Sorry to jam this up with a particularized question, but where do you think a 3.73 puts me percentile wise?


A Lot closer to top 20% than top 10%, but I'd estimate 15% and the lsn rank estimator agrees

Great spot to be in for AJF

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Re: Cornell 2015 AJF/BOJF/DCJF/OCI

Postby tyrant_flycatcher » Thu Jun 11, 2015 7:38 pm

Does anyone else feel like GPA isn't as important as they thought it would be? I have a 3.63, but I don't feel like I'm in a much better position than someone with a 3.43. I'll be competing against students who have my kind of GPA, and someone with a 3.43 will be competing against students who have his/her kind of GPA. It seems to me that I'm just as likely to strike out. I would only gain an advantage if we bid on the same firms, but that seems unlikely given the difference in GPA. If I don't care about Vault rankings and just want an offer at a market-paying firm, what does top 1/3 get me that median doesn't? Something tells me there's an easy answer out there, but I don't see it.

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Re: Cornell 2015 AJF/BOJF/DCJF/OCI

Postby runthetrap1990 » Thu Jun 11, 2015 8:08 pm

tyrant_flycatcher wrote:Does anyone else feel like GPA isn't as important as they thought it would be? I have a 3.63, but I don't feel like I'm in a much better position than someone with a 3.43. I'll be competing against students who have my kind of GPA, and someone with a 3.43 will be competing against students who have his/her kind of GPA. It seems to me that I'm just as likely to strike out. I would only gain an advantage if we bid on the same firms, but that seems unlikely given the difference in GPA. If I don't care about Vault rankings and just want an offer at a market-paying firm, what does top 1/3 get me that median doesn't? Something tells me there's an easy answer out there, but I don't see it.


GPA seems like a critical element to get your foot in the door (though not the end of the world if it's low...especially given that 3.09 that got callbacks at a bunch of places), but a lot of people have stressed how important interviewing ends up being to actually get the results. I guess i'm not too surprised. I imagine you get more weight with your GPA if its a tie in every other category, though.

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Re: Cornell 2015 AJF/BOJF/DCJF/OCI

Postby runinthefront » Thu Jun 11, 2015 8:58 pm

tyrant_flycatcher wrote:Does anyone else feel like GPA isn't as important as they thought it would be? I have a 3.63, but I don't feel like I'm in a much better position than someone with a 3.43. I'll be competing against students who have my kind of GPA, and someone with a 3.43 will be competing against students who have his/her kind of GPA. It seems to me that I'm just as likely to strike out. I would only gain an advantage if we bid on the same firms, but that seems unlikely given the difference in GPA. If I don't care about Vault rankings and just want an offer at a market-paying firm, what does top 1/3 get me that median doesn't? Something tells me there's an easy answer out there, but I don't see it.


1) you're in great shape--crafting your bid list appropriately will be key. You have to remember that those with a 3.43 will be reaches for your target firms--just likely you'll be reaches for some V10s. If you "just" want a job, you could probably bid hella conservatively and virtually guarantee an offer from a market paying place. I mean, it's all up to you, really.

2) the easy answer is to not be weird/bad at interviews; don't ask dumb questions; do your research and just appear more normal than the other guy. These are all virtually behavior interviews except for about 10 firms who care more about GPA than anything else--the associates are looking for someone who they won't mind working on a deal with at 1:00am in the morning/a person who they (or their partner) can trust to talk to an important client over the phone/in person. So yeah....just be that and you'll be fine




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