Michigan OCI 2015

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AreJay711
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Re: Michigan OCI 2015

Postby AreJay711 » Sun Jun 07, 2015 5:04 pm

The two posts quoted by UnamSanctam are right on. The game theory behind where to bid is pretty obvious. Here are some additional thoughts from my experience. I tried to keep them general so you could formulate your own responses:

1) Markets -- You need to tell a narrative about why you are applying to a given market, rather than just list reasons. I If you are applying to more than one market, the story behind all three should be consistent. I applied to firms in three markets. Obviously you should have a preference and bid mostly there, but it's not like the firms will know that you are bidding on multiple markets (you should indicate that you are interested in, at most, two markets if a single firm allows you to apply to multiple offices, and then only if one of those markets is the one you grew up in). I don't really get the aversion here. In 2012, I bid on three and it was fine.

2) Personality in screener -- Personality is important, but you are going to need to show the interviewer more that just that you would be cool to grab a beer with. You need to come off as competent, efficient, and professional. The people who just bullshit about sports the entire time and get call backs have something in their materials or bearing that indicates competence (grades, writing sample, the way they talk). I think people who are actually fun get fucked over by the common advice, because they take it to mean they just need to be themselves.

3) No need to play it cool -- In real life, playing it cool is usually the way to go. Not so at OCI. Being overeager won't be held against you. You also might want to sweat a firm's nuts a bit. Don't be shy about why you'd love to work for them (this is a good reason to have met an alum at the firm over the summer -- "I talked with AreJay711 over the summer and he made the firm sound great for reasons 1, 2, and 3").

4) Grades -- Many firms have cutoffs lower than people think. The reason the average offer grades are higher is because most students don't present themselves in a way that strongly distinguishes themselves from the crowd. They just try to show that they are personable enough. The firm then must rely on grades to make distinctions. You can punch above your weight if you come off as competent, diligent, and likable (which is different than fun). You want to inspire the interviewer to have confidence in you as a candidate.

5) Corp v. Litigation -- Most of you have no idea what the bulk of transactional practice entails. It's reviewing 200 page disjointed lists. These lists are written in a retarded form language that, despite its miserableness, won't be changed because it's worked before in litigation and fixing something that's not broken is a recipe for disaster. The legal structure behind said list might be interesting, but the document itself is a singularity of tedium. As a junior associate, you will be focusing on the document. So, if that's what you want to do, you need to show your interviewer that you can handle and thrive in a high pressure environment where you are performing repetitive tasks that barely engage your brain yet require your utmost attention. Litigation requires searching for needles in haystacks and a lot of work that leads to dead ends, but ultimately at least requires you to think. And it's ok if it's not 100% -- fuck it, let the judge's clerk figure it out! I've never done doc review, but maybe that sucks too.

scaliaantics
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Re: Michigan OCI 2015

Postby scaliaantics » Sun Jun 07, 2015 5:05 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Scalia... That is why I edited and said found the right numbers... My first post was based off of memory...

And no I'm not sure it's exactly the same distribution, was just trying to help and assuming so. I can't imagine it would be too different but maybe you could check for me?


A quick cursory google search didn't reveal any information about their distribution. Unless you can provide that information, I'd recommend people not follow this curve at all.

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Re: Michigan OCI 2015

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jun 07, 2015 5:55 pm

UVA:

http://abovethelaw.com/2014/06/oops-top ... licants/3/

These were grades after 2 years, and it looks to me like there are fewer people with really high GPAs than at Michigan, though the medians are somewhat similar. I know there were a few people in the class of 2016 who were well over 4.0. (edit: by few I mean I believe there were exactly 3--one of whom transferred).

I don't think firms have a better idea about the Michigan percentiles than we do. Many are totally blind to the bumped curve.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Sun Jun 07, 2015 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Anonymous User
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Re: Michigan OCI 2015

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jun 07, 2015 7:24 pm

Anonymous User wrote:UVA:

http://abovethelaw.com/2014/06/oops-top ... licants/3/

These were grades after 2 years, and it looks to me like there are fewer people with really high GPAs than at Michigan, though the medians are somewhat similar. I know there were a few people in the class of 2016 who were well over 4.0.

I don't think firms have a better idea about the Michigan percentiles than we do. Many are totally blind to the bumped curve.


I don't know how much truth there was to this. I was tasked, as part of my summer associate role, to help the hiring committee figure out what Michigan's new curve meant.

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Re: Michigan OCI 2015

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jun 08, 2015 8:25 am

Is the consensus that first year GPAs are generally lower than three-year GPAs, due to grade inflation in the later years? I'm thinking of that clerkship letter from Dean Baum. Baum's letter probably underestimates rank the lower your 1L GPA, right? At the top of the class, it probably overestimates rank, since there are likely more people with straight As after one year than there are after three, so people with a 4.0 might not be top 1% after 1L, but if they maintained that GPA for three years, would be.

Does that sound right?

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AreJay711
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Re: Michigan OCI 2015

Postby AreJay711 » Mon Jun 08, 2015 9:32 am

Anonymous User wrote:Is the consensus that first year GPAs are generally lower than three-year GPAs, due to grade inflation in the later years? I'm thinking of that clerkship letter from Dean Baum. Baum's letter probably underestimates rank the lower your 1L GPA, right? At the top of the class, it probably overestimates rank, since there are likely more people with straight As after one year than there are after three, so people with a 4.0 might not be top 1% after 1L, but if they maintained that GPA for three years, would be.

Does that sound right?


Yes. Idk about the 4.0 part (a lot more A+ are given later), but generally yeah.

Anonymous User
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Re: Michigan OCI 2015

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jun 14, 2015 7:14 pm

Is it too early to get some feedback on bid lists?

~3.65, 3 yr WE, URM with ties to CA.

I'm interested in corporate in CA, but am not dead set against NY. NYC unless listed otherwise:

1. Morrison & Foerster (SF)
2. Morrison & Foerster
3. Sidley Austin
4. Kirkland & Ellis (SF)
5. Kirkland & Ellis
6. Jones Day
7. Jones Day (SF)
8. Ropes & Gray
9. Ropes & Gray (SF)
10. Paul Hastings Janofsky & Walker
11. Cooley (SV)
12. Cooley (SF)
13. Wilson Sonsini Goodrich & Rosati (SV)
14. Wilson Sonsini Goodrich & Rosati (SF)
15. Latham & Watkins (SV)
16. Latham & Watkins (NY)
17. Gibson Dunn & Crutcher (NY)
18. Fried Frank
19. Clifford Chance
20. Proskauer
21. Linklaters
22. Freshfields Bruckhaus Deringer
23. Cravath Swaine & Moore
24. Weil Gotshal & Manges
25. Milbank Tweed Hadley & McCloy
26. Davis Polk & Wardwell
27. Simpson Thacher & Bartlett
28. Sullivan & Cromwell
29. Skadden Arps Slate Meagher & Flom (SV)
30. Skadden Arps Slate Meagher & Flom
31. Shearman & Sterling
32. Cleary Gottlieb Steen & Hamilton
33. Debevoise & Plimpton
34. Goodwin Procter
35. Goodwin Procter (SF)
36. White & Case

A couple questions:

First off - can someone explain how "no multiple interviews" works? The reason why I listed 36 bids is because, according to my understanding, the different offices count as 1 bid if it's "no multiple interviews" even though you bid them separately through the system. Does having more than 30 hurt you? It seems like it can bump down the placement of the other bids, which might make you miss out on other firms you want...

Second - Can someone critique the general ordering of firms?

Lastly - Any feedback on the choice of firms? Any good corporate practices that come to mind that I missed? Too conservative/too aggressive of a mix?

Thanks!

Anonymous User
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Re: Michigan OCI 2015

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jun 15, 2015 8:19 am

To above poster, similar GPA and similar bidlist last year and i learned I was way too conservative. Go in assuming that every NY firm is in play, because they are. You want to come out with an offer of course, but the best way to increase your chances at offers is not by being substantially over the GPA medians. Your best bet is to make sure you get a handful of screeners at firms who will give you an offer based solely on your GPA (SullCrom) and also firms youre genuinely interested in, because that shows through to them.

I don't know enough to answer your first question, but to your second question I can say bid strategically top to bottom, meaning there is no reason to vote Sidley 3 even if it's your number 1 firm, because you can get it at 7 or 8 (I think).

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AreJay711
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Re: Michigan OCI 2015

Postby AreJay711 » Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:21 pm

Anonymous User wrote:First off - can someone explain how "no multiple interviews" works? The reason why I listed 36 bids is because, according to my understanding, the different offices count as 1 bid if it's "no multiple interviews" even though you bid them separately through the system. Does having more than 30 hurt you? It seems like it can bump down the placement of the other bids, which might make you miss out on other firms you want...


I thought "no multiple interviews" meant that you can't interview at say both the NY and SF offices even though they are listed separately.[/quote]

Anonymous User wrote:Second - Can someone critique the general ordering of firms?


I agree with the above poster. That said, some of those are throwaways. Like Linklaters at 20? From what I remember, their GPA averages were pretty close to median so it's going to be gone. Same thing with Milbank.

Anonymous User wrote:Lastly - Any feedback on the choice of firms? Any good corporate practices that come to mind that I missed? Too conservative/too aggressive of a mix?


Honestly, it's whatever. "Corporate" is broad enough that it doesn't really matter.

Anonymous User
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Re: Michigan OCI 2015

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jun 22, 2015 1:17 pm

Any umich news/rumors?

Anonymous User
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Re: Michigan OCI 2015

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jun 22, 2015 3:51 pm

Rumor: it's going to be hot and sweaty as a mother in the first week of August

CTT
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Re: Michigan OCI 2015

Postby CTT » Mon Jun 22, 2015 7:09 pm

Anonymous User wrote:To above poster, similar GPA and similar bidlist last year and i learned I was way too conservative. Go in assuming that every NY firm is in play, because they are. You want to come out with an offer of course, but the best way to increase your chances at offers is not by being substantially over the GPA medians. Your best bet is to make sure you get a handful of screeners at firms who will give you an offer based solely on your GPA (SullCrom) and also firms youre genuinely interested in, because that shows through to them.

I don't know enough to answer your first question, but to your second question I can say bid strategically top to bottom, meaning there is no reason to vote Sidley 3 even if it's your number 1 firm, because you can get it at 7 or 8 (I think).


NOT TOO CONSERVATIVE

The most selective firms are the easiest to get interviews with! The list above includes pretty much all the top NYC shops.

Also, absent URM status (which likely makes a good degree of difference but which firms and the school would never consider revealing) a 3.65 does not put all firms in play. Remember that much of the data is old. Firms out west like Irell and MTO are probably not really in play. Cravath and S&C in New York along with some Skadden offices (e.g. D.C., Chicago), W&C, Covington, and several other DC offices are reach firms at best.

Anonymous User
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Re: Michigan OCI 2015

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 26, 2015 12:01 am

At what point are firms considered to be "selective" to the point of being worth placing outside of one's Top 10/15 and still being able to feel safe? 3.5+, 3.6+? Sitting at a 3.6 but really interested in some firms in the 3.4ish range, trying to figure out where to bid those to make sure I get them but to maximize interviews and bid some firms with even lower GPA requirements closer to the top.

Anonymous User
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Re: Michigan OCI 2015

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 26, 2015 10:09 am

Is anyone here at median or below? Or are Us tls nerds way over representing top half.

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Re: Michigan OCI 2015

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 26, 2015 4:37 pm

Below median and lurking.

Anonymous User
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Re: Michigan OCI 2015

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 26, 2015 7:59 pm

At median. Bidding super conservative and crossing my fingers.

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Re: Michigan OCI 2015

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 26, 2015 8:21 pm

Non-Michigan OCI'er here but if your from metro Detroit, reach out. Some firms are scheduling CB's already.

Anonymous User
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Re: Michigan OCI 2015

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 26, 2015 8:39 pm

Any ones in particular?

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Re: Michigan OCI 2015

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 26, 2015 8:44 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Any ones in particular?


I don't want to out my self, but reach out to them all. If you are serious about Detroit, you can make it back for pre-OCI callbacks. Some will tell you to bid them but others will be perfectly ok presuming you have at least ok grades.

CTT
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Re: Michigan OCI 2015

Postby CTT » Fri Jun 26, 2015 11:37 pm

Anonymous User wrote:At what point are firms considered to be "selective" to the point of being worth placing outside of one's Top 10/15 and still being able to feel safe? 3.5+, 3.6+? Sitting at a 3.6 but really interested in some firms in the 3.4ish range, trying to figure out where to bid those to make sure I get them but to maximize interviews and bid some firms with even lower GPA requirements closer to the top.

First, you should define "selective." Do you mean difficult to get OCI slots with because people bid them high or difficult to get call backs with?

You should utilize the data from last year. The not especially selective firms in Chicago and NY are pretty much gone 15 spots in. However, there are some firms that are not especially difficult to get interview spots and are well within your range (e.g. Debevoise; Weil; Cadwalader) that do not necessarily need to be in your top 15 and should not be in your top 10.

If you have a 3.6, aim for about 20 interviews. The firms from 20-25 on your list should be the ones with near 100 percent interview rates. The firms from 15-20 should have interview rates in the range of 70 percent. The First from 10-15 should have rates of at least 40-50 percent. The firms in the top 10 should be the most selective.

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Re: Michigan OCI 2015

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jun 27, 2015 10:39 am

so how fucked is someone who managed to get rejected from a secondary journal?

umichman
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Re: Michigan OCI 2015

Postby umichman » Sat Jun 27, 2015 4:44 pm

Anonymous User wrote:so how fucked is someone who managed to get rejected from a secondary journal?


You only need to get into one. So if u get denied by the others then who cares

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Re: Michigan OCI 2015

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jun 27, 2015 5:01 pm

I'm on law review. Got rejected from at least one secondary journal. Don't worry about it.

Also, getting on law review is a real help is you have like a 3.3. But for most people who end up on law review, it doesn't make much difference in terms of firm jobs.

Anonymous User
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Re: Michigan OCI 2015

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jun 27, 2015 5:06 pm

anon from before-- I only applied for LR and the one secondary.

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UnamSanctam
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Re: Michigan OCI 2015

Postby UnamSanctam » Sat Jun 27, 2015 6:34 pm

What is your GPA otherwise, are you doing a clinic next semester, and are you a K-JD?




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