C&F Addendum Help

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Re: C&F Addendum Help

Postby Anonymous User » Sun May 31, 2015 4:56 pm

DF, would you say that to the DUI, domestic violence, or retail theft guy? All of those C&F issues have a legitimate connection with one's fitness to practice law. In addition, people with those issues routinely pass C&F, even though their misconduct shows far more moral turpitude than cursing out a dean.

Plenty of people with mood disorders, including individuals in my support group, are successful attorneys. My psychiatrist, psychotherapist and support group can say with full certainty that I will make a fine attorney. In the end, it is the opinion of my treatment providers that matters, not an anonymous internet troll.

If you're not here to critique the addendum, then GTFO. The purpose of this thread is not to debate whether bipolar people can take on stressful jobs.

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Re: C&F Addendum Help

Postby Anonymous User » Sun May 31, 2015 6:09 pm

OP: Like in your case, we need much more info.

If someone has repeated DWI's, they are probably screwed. If someone has repeated theft crimes, they're probably screwed. If someone has repeated domestic violence crimes, they're probably screwed.

The first 2 don't happen repeated (say 4-5 times in most instances), especially the 2nd. Shoplifting generally requires one of 3 things - being so poor you can't get something you really want (how many things will you see in a store that you can't get if you really need them?), making a mistake (ex: crab legs) or sociopathy. Mistakes don't happen 4-5 times, and law students pretty uniformly have at least some minimal amount of money.

People do fail the bar for domestic violence, though. But if domestic violence is you got into a fight with your brother, this will probably be treated differently than a man beating on a woman. Like a mental disorder, this is likely to repeat itself. That said, I'd imagine one domestic complaint from years ago probably won't be too damning. The fear is the abuser is the likeliest to give the profession a bad name.

I don't know what DF's experience in this area in, but mood disorder is an umbrella term, and seeks to equivocate depression with bipolar. Virtually all people are capable of becoming depressed, and depression isn't necessarily a continuous issue even for people with a depressive episode. One could even go so far as argue >90% of the time, depressed people should not be medicated given the side effects, addictive issues of SSRI's and the profoundly higher rates of violence in depressed patients on SSRI's vs. control groups.

You yourself have committed yourself to agreeing being bipolar is different from other mood disorders. To show this, I'll ask you the following 2 questions:

1.) Do you think that being bipolar contributed to your behavior?
2.) When you committed this behavior, were you in a depressed or in a manic state?

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Re: C&F Addendum Help

Postby Anonymous User » Sun May 31, 2015 6:15 pm

What if your wife is your client, the car from a trust fund you're overseeing and you run over and kill opposing counsel?

In all seriousness, don't encourage her to give up and be a looney tune, DF. You're not being very nice. At your core, I know you're a good guy. Heck, I'd bet you give a dollar to one homeless bro at least once per week.

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Re: C&F Addendum Help

Postby Anonymous User » Sun May 31, 2015 6:22 pm

If you're not here to critique the addendum, then GTFO. This thread is not about whether bipolar people can undertake stressful jobs.

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Re: C&F Addendum Help

Postby Anonymous User » Sun May 31, 2015 6:29 pm

Anon, to answer your questions, yes, bipolar contributed to the behavior (this has been confirmed by my treatment providers) and I was in a manic state when it happened.

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Re: C&F Addendum Help

Postby Anonymous User » Sun May 31, 2015 6:30 pm

DF: I and not OP was the one who responded with the wife and trust fund question/joke.

Again, I'm not OP, but in all seriousness, if what you are alleging is true, this really creates a very troubling future for the legal profession.

I think we'd both agree if you take OP's conduct and remove the bipolar diagnosis, it's not really a question that she'd pass. If you're correct that the bipolar diagnosis not only doesn't partly mitigate her conduct, but also significantly reduces her likelihood to pass c&f, we're creating an environment where law students who suspect they're mental instability never get the help they need.

When factored in with the alarming rates of alcoholism and drug addiction in the profession, we're creating a legal world that not only will have the same # of crazies but one where they'll all be unmedicated, drunk and high. It's like if Fear & Loathing in Las Vegas were happening every where every day.

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Re: C&F Addendum Help

Postby Anonymous User » Sun May 31, 2015 6:34 pm

DF, the fact that you think that retail theft, DUI, and domestic violence have no bearing on one's ability to practice law (but bipolar does) shows that your head is firmly up your ass.

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Re: C&F Addendum Help

Postby Anonymous User » Sun May 31, 2015 6:40 pm

Don't deal with ethics? Stealing stuff isn't unethical? Driving drunk and possibly killing someone isn't unethical? Battering your spouse and/or kids isn't unethical?

What planet are you on?

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Re: C&F Addendum Help

Postby Anonymous User » Sun May 31, 2015 6:46 pm

Not OP but theft and wife beating (using the fact you are larger than a loved one to beat her into submission) both are highly unethical. Also, hitting a girl is just generally unethical. In our society, TCR is to just cheat.

But what DF is trying to get at is these sorts of crimes, in most instances, don't suggest that one is substantially less able to comply with the rules of professional conduct in dealing with clients. Even stealing from an employer isn't really that likely to depending on circumstances and age. Anything involving the cash register during recent adulthood would be more troubling to me given how easy it would be to fudge your hours. However, it's also worth noting that #'s fudging is such a ubiquitous problem throughout the profession that I doubt most of the bastards even consider it stealing.

The more interesting q is where a lawyer overbills their rich clients to give to the poor. Is there a Robin Hood defense?

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Re: C&F Addendum Help

Postby rpupkin » Sun May 31, 2015 6:53 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Not OP but theft and wife beating (using the fact you are larger than a loved one to beat her into submission) both are highly unethical. Also, hitting a girl is just generally unethical. In our society, TCR is to just cheat.

Damn it. The OP has a legitimate reason to be anon. But all the other anons are mucking up this thread for no reason. If you're just offering your opinions, post under your username. If don't want a controversial opinion associated with your username, then don't post.
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Re: C&F Addendum Help

Postby El Pollito » Sun May 31, 2015 6:55 pm

the brave use of anon ITT is absurd

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Postby Desert Fox » Sun May 31, 2015 6:57 pm

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Re: C&F Addendum Help

Postby El Pollito » Sun May 31, 2015 6:58 pm

Desert Fox wrote:OP replied to herself with advice on JDU, so I assume all anon is her.

Also she's probably a troll.

lol at the mods banning for my conduct in this thread. Go make sure nobody is posting LSAT ads in teh LSAT forum

i think people from her school said she was real

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Re: C&F Addendum Help

Postby Anonymous User » Sun May 31, 2015 6:59 pm

I'm not a troll. I am a real person and this situation is real. Believe it or not, there are law students and lawyers out there with bipolar. It's because of stigma from people like you that many refuse to seek life-saving help.

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Re: C&F Addendum Help

Postby worldtraveler » Sun May 31, 2015 7:01 pm

Except no one is having a major issue with you being bipolar. People are taking issue with the way you're reacting to people in this thread.

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Re: C&F Addendum Help

Postby Anonymous User » Sun May 31, 2015 7:02 pm

What is people's problem? I edited the addendum heavily based on people's advice.

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Re: C&F Addendum Help

Postby AReasonableMan » Sun May 31, 2015 7:03 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Don't deal with ethics? Stealing stuff isn't unethical? Driving drunk and possibly killing someone isn't unethical? Battering your spouse and/or kids isn't unethical?

What planet are you on?

The one where ethics and morality aren't synonyms. Go home and get your fucking shinebox.

Do you know what happened to the last guy who said that?

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Postby Desert Fox » Sun May 31, 2015 7:04 pm

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Re: C&F Addendum Help

Postby AReasonableMan » Sun May 31, 2015 7:07 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I'm not a troll. I am a real person and this situation is real. Believe it or not, there are law students and lawyers out there with bipolar. It's because of stigma from people like you that many refuse to seek life-saving help.


If you never went psycho against your school three times, your bipolar disorder would be nobodies business. But because of your repeated behavior it is.

And to be fair, this sort of stuff doesn't even sound all that related to bipolar disorder. You can be crazy AND an asshole.

You are using your disease as a get out of jail card. But the world won't see it that way.

By your own admission, you can't even leave your current city without spinning out of control. Do you really think you should be a lawyer?

Lets spin your obsession with DUIs around. Would you let someone in with two DUIs in two years who says the can't leave the town their sponser is in?

With the DWI, I would just make admission contingent on their not owning or operating a car. It seems much more fixable. If around 40% of lawyers are alcoholics, the only issue would be the D part, not the UI part.

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Re: C&F Addendum Help

Postby Anonymous User » Sun May 31, 2015 7:09 pm

My misconduct was related to bipolar disorder, and I have the professional opinion of a doctor, a psychotherapist and a support group to back that up. I'm not using it as a get out of jail free card. I take 100% responsibility for my actions.

Look, if you're not here to offer feedback on the addendum, then just leave. This thread is not about whether or not bipolar people can handle the stresses of the legal profession.




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