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Re: Summer Associate Class of 2015: Get on In
Posted: Tue May 26, 2015 10:57 pm
by 5ky
you'll definitely handle big law well
Re: Summer Associate Class of 2015: Get on In
Posted: Tue May 26, 2015 10:58 pm
by FSK
1. I'm wearing headphones. I made a point of a casually asking an associate I've been working with what is accepted in the office. I'm doing what she told me. Shit, that was hard.
2. Here's how to handle that situation. Find a different case. Give it to him. Mention you looked at the previous case in finding the case and saw it has only been questioned on one non-relevant ground or whatever. Don't be an ass.
These things just seem very obvious. Think about what the person asked you to do, why they asked you, and respond how they want it usefully and carefully.
Re: Summer Associate Class of 2015: Get on In
Posted: Tue May 26, 2015 11:02 pm
by rpupkin
flawschoolkid wrote:
2. Here's how to handle that situation. Find a different case. Give it to him. Mention you looked at the previous case in finding the case and saw it has only been questioned on one non-relevant ground or whatever. Don't be an ass.
Re: Summer Associate Class of 2015: Get on In
Posted: Tue May 26, 2015 11:04 pm
by FSK
rpupkin wrote:flawschoolkid wrote:
2. Here's how to handle that situation. Find a different case. Give it to him. Mention you looked at the previous case in finding the case and saw it has only been questioned on one non-relevant ground or whatever. Don't be an ass.
I mean, maybe you're right. But its entirely plausible he quickly looked at case, saw whatever flag, and didn't look more closely. I would hope that OP would know if this is that situation, you know?
Re: Summer Associate Class of 2015: Get on In
Posted: Tue May 26, 2015 11:11 pm
by smaug
hard to know whether you were right or wrong, but it doesn't really matter, just do the work and smile
if it actually becomes a problem, maybe find a way to cc your work to the midlevel/senior associate so that there's someone watching (if you think the person is just trying to be a dick to you) ((the midlevel/senior will probably be mildly annoyed/won't read it at all anyway, but you might feel better??))
Re: Summer Associate Class of 2015: Get on In
Posted: Tue May 26, 2015 11:11 pm
by Anonymous User
flawschoolkid wrote:rpupkin wrote:flawschoolkid wrote:
2. Here's how to handle that situation. Find a different case. Give it to him. Mention you looked at the previous case in finding the case and saw it has only been questioned on one non-relevant ground or whatever. Don't be an ass.
I mean, maybe you're right. But its entirely plausible he quickly looked at case, saw whatever flag, and didn't look more closely. I would hope that OP would know if this is that situation, you know?
I would suppose that's what it is, but to put it in context this is a pretty big case. The golden standard. It is literally still being cited to, used, and is the foundation of how to construct a term under a certain area of law.
Re: Summer Associate Class of 2015: Get on In
Posted: Tue May 26, 2015 11:14 pm
by BigZuck
rpupkin wrote:flawschoolkid wrote:
2. Here's how to handle that situation. Find a different case. Give it to him. Mention you looked at the previous case in finding the case and saw it has only been questioned on one non-relevant ground or whatever. Don't be an ass.
Couldn't the OP still say something but phrase it in such a way that it looks like he's trying to have a learning experience?
"Here is my corrected work product. I saw that the other case had some negative treatment but I thought it was still appropriate because of X, Y, and Z. What should I look for next time so that I don't make the same mistake again?" etc.
Hell it might actually be a learning experience.
Or would that not be ok?
Re: Summer Associate Class of 2015: Get on In
Posted: Tue May 26, 2015 11:14 pm
by FSK
I have an actual no bullshit question now. I need to run up to school for like 30 minutes on Friday. Planning on getting a cab (its like a $5 ride) to not be out of the office more than 45 minutes. Won't be missing anything else going on. Cleared with the associate I work most with that, who was a summer, that this is kosher.
Kosher?
Re: Summer Associate Class of 2015: Get on In
Posted: Tue May 26, 2015 11:16 pm
by rpupkin
Anonymous User wrote:flawschoolkid wrote:rpupkin wrote:flawschoolkid wrote:
2. Here's how to handle that situation. Find a different case. Give it to him. Mention you looked at the previous case in finding the case and saw it has only been questioned on one non-relevant ground or whatever. Don't be an ass.
I mean, maybe you're right. But its entirely plausible he quickly looked at case, saw whatever flag, and didn't look more closely. I would hope that OP would know if this is that situation, you know?
I would suppose that's what it is, but to put it in context this is a pretty big case. The golden standard. It is literally still being cited to, used, and is the foundation of how to construct a term under a certain area of law.
So it's a claim construction brief and you cited Phillips? Even though that case is obviously good law, there can be good tactical reasons not to cite it--depending, of course, on the context. Just keep in mind that your four semesters of law school didn't teach you everything you need to know about the practice of law.
Re: Summer Associate Class of 2015: Get on In
Posted: Tue May 26, 2015 11:20 pm
by rpupkin
BigZuck wrote:rpupkin wrote:flawschoolkid wrote:
2. Here's how to handle that situation. Find a different case. Give it to him. Mention you looked at the previous case in finding the case and saw it has only been questioned on one non-relevant ground or whatever. Don't be an ass.
Couldn't the OP still say something but phrase it in such a way that it looks like he's trying to have a learning experience?
"Here is my corrected work product. I saw that the other case had some negative treatment but I thought it was still appropriate because of X, Y, and Z. What should I look for next time so that I don't make the same mistake again?" etc.
Hell it might actually be a learning experience.
Or would that not be ok?
I almost said this earlier: it's fine to have a follow-up conversation with the associate. It's totally cool to go into the associate's office and ask about why he or she thought that the case wasn't the right authority. I just don't think it's a great idea to get defensive in an email. I also don't think it's ideal to ask "how can I do this better?" questions in email. If someone directly asks you for something specific in an email, just do it. You can chat about your questions later during an in-person conversation.
Re: Summer Associate Class of 2015: Get on In
Posted: Tue May 26, 2015 11:21 pm
by 5ky
flawschoolkid wrote:I have an actual no bullshit question now. I need to run up to school for like 30 minutes on Friday. Planning on getting a cab (its like a $5 ride) to not be out of the office more than 45 minutes. Won't be missing anything else going on. Cleared with the associate I work most with that, who was a summer, that this is kosher.
Kosher?
no trouble
Re: Summer Associate Class of 2015: Get on In
Posted: Tue May 26, 2015 11:33 pm
by DJ JD
POTUSorSCOTUS wrote:JohannDeMann wrote:didn't have much to work on today, so a partner told me to make rounds and note anybody that is "weird and antisocial" wearing headphones.
Is it antisocial to wear earplugs when drafting memos/briefs? I can't focus without them
Sounds like something a corp bro would tell a summer.
Re: Summer Associate Class of 2015: Get on In
Posted: Tue May 26, 2015 11:34 pm
by Johann
rpupkin wrote:BigZuck wrote:rpupkin wrote:flawschoolkid wrote:
2. Here's how to handle that situation. Find a different case. Give it to him. Mention you looked at the previous case in finding the case and saw it has only been questioned on one non-relevant ground or whatever. Don't be an ass.
Couldn't the OP still say something but phrase it in such a way that it looks like he's trying to have a learning experience?
"Here is my corrected work product. I saw that the other case had some negative treatment but I thought it was still appropriate because of X, Y, and Z. What should I look for next time so that I don't make the same mistake again?" etc.
Hell it might actually be a learning experience.
Or would that not be ok?
I almost said this earlier: it's fine to have a follow-up conversation with the associate. It's totally cool to go into the associate's office and ask about why he or she thought that the case wasn't the right authority. I just don't think it's a great idea to get defensive in an email. I also don't think it's ideal to ask "how can I do this better?" questions in email. If someone directly asks you for something specific in an email, just do it. You can chat about your questions later during an in-person conversation.
Yea this. One of the most aspie annoying things is when people justify themselves through long bullshit emails. Just do what is asked of you. Nothing more, nothing less. That senior associate might be having to stay till midnight tonight and its pretty rude to ask for a learning experience if the associate isnt offering.
Re: Summer Associate Class of 2015: Get on In
Posted: Tue May 26, 2015 11:46 pm
by Micdiddy
Basically spent 5 1/2 hours on Westlaw going down a meaningless rabbit hole today. Certainly felt better doing this as a paid employee then for legal writing class.
Re: Summer Associate Class of 2015: Get on In
Posted: Tue May 26, 2015 11:47 pm
by DJ JD
rpupkin wrote:BigZuck wrote:rpupkin wrote:flawschoolkid wrote:
2. Here's how to handle that situation. Find a different case. Give it to him. Mention you looked at the previous case in finding the case and saw it has only been questioned on one non-relevant ground or whatever. Don't be an ass.
Couldn't the OP still say something but phrase it in such a way that it looks like he's trying to have a learning experience?
"Here is my corrected work product. I saw that the other case had some negative treatment but I thought it was still appropriate because of X, Y, and Z. What should I look for next time so that I don't make the same mistake again?" etc.
Hell it might actually be a learning experience.
Or would that not be ok?
I almost said this earlier: it's fine to have a follow-up conversation with the associate. It's totally cool to go into the associate's office and ask about why he or she thought that the case wasn't the right authority. I just don't think it's a great idea to get defensive in an email. I also don't think it's ideal to ask "how can I do this better?" questions in email. If someone directly asks you for something specific in an email, just do it. You can chat about your questions later during an in-person conversation.
Is this shit really that difficult or what because the last two responses seem painfully obvious...
If you have a problem with something you feel is arbitrary criticism, ask for feedback... in person... when they have a chance to chat. Either it's something you really weren't knowledgable in because you're a summer and you don't know anything OR, (less likely) it's something trivial or inconsequential...
If it's the latter, you go in asking for feedback; eager to improve, you fix the bullshit problem that isn't really a substantive problem and voila(!); now that person now sees you as a proactive learner who's willing and able to improve their craft. If it's the former, now you've learned something you didn't previously know.
It's a win-win situation, and it's not rocket science.
Re: Summer Associate Class of 2015: Get on In
Posted: Tue May 26, 2015 11:51 pm
by BigZuck
Yeah, of course you wouldn't ask how you can improve your work product in an email
I do, however, appreciate Johann offering a lesson on how to be a normal person
(MODS PLZ)
Re: Summer Associate Class of 2015: Get on In
Posted: Wed May 27, 2015 1:07 am
by Person1111
Totally fine to ask the associate why that case didn't work, as long as you (a) find a different case; (b) aren't defensive about it; and (c) aren't doing this at a high-pressure time (e.g. right before the brief gets filed). Asking follow-up questions like that shows that you're thinking about the assignment and the feedback you're getting and trying to improve, and those are all good things if you're not being defensive or totally aspie about it. I think a phone call is the best medium for this conversation, though an in-person conversation is also fine. I wouldn't send an email.
I don't wear headphones at the office, but people do and it's NBD.
Re: Summer Associate Class of 2015: Get on In
Posted: Wed May 27, 2015 1:56 pm
by PvblivsScipio
I have no work. Wat do?
I've asked the coordinator and other attorneys. I'm told I'll get something and I don't want to pester them. But I've had large chunks of time now with literally nothing to do. I'm fine enjoying the free time but also don't want to look like a useless human.
Re: Summer Associate Class of 2015: Get on In
Posted: Wed May 27, 2015 2:46 pm
by brotherdarkness
PvblivsScipio wrote:I have no work. Wat do?
I've asked the coordinator and other attorneys. I'm told I'll get something and I don't want to pester them. But I've had large chunks of time now with literally nothing to do. I'm fine enjoying the free time but also don't want to look like a useless human.
Enjoy the free time. Presumably the actual attorneys have more important things to do right now than create make-work for a summer; when they have something for you to do and the time to review and re-do your work, they'll probably let you know.
So long as you've made it clear you're available, you've done what's expected. Don't pester.
Re: Summer Associate Class of 2015: Get on In
Posted: Wed May 27, 2015 3:03 pm
by PvblivsScipio
brotherdarkness wrote:PvblivsScipio wrote:I have no work. Wat do?
I've asked the coordinator and other attorneys. I'm told I'll get something and I don't want to pester them. But I've had large chunks of time now with literally nothing to do. I'm fine enjoying the free time but also don't want to look like a useless human.
Enjoy the free time. Presumably the actual attorneys have more important things to do right now than create make-work for a summer; when they have something for you to do and the time to review and re-do your work, they'll probably let you know.
So long as you've made it clear you're available, you've done what's expected. Don't pester.
Thanks. Wish I brought headphones to watch Netflix
Re: Summer Associate Class of 2015: Get on In
Posted: Wed May 27, 2015 3:37 pm
by 2014
BD while your suggestion is chill and reasonable would you have followed it last year in the same position?
@flawschool - totally cool, you actually almost certainly didn't need to clear it with anyone, people will just assume you are in a meeting w/ another attorney if they happened to run by or call you and you weren't there. We had people check out for extended periods of time to go to the gym, grab a snack, etc and no one ever took any flack for it.
Also lol at this defensive lexis conversation. There's no advantage to ever saying anything but "here's an updated case, let me know if I can do anything else". Defending your honor has no positives other than peace of mind if you are neurotic and many possible negatives.
Re: Summer Associate Class of 2015: Get on In
Posted: Wed May 27, 2015 4:03 pm
by brotherdarkness
2014 wrote:BD while your suggestion is chill and reasonable would you have followed it last year in the same position?
I followed the don't pester part of my suggestion, but I didn't "enjoy the free time" as much as I should have (despite being told to). Seems like this is one of those things a lot of people learn the hard way--by worrying rather than relaxing when they have the chance, and then hating life when a ton of work drops on them.
Re: Summer Associate Class of 2015: Get on In
Posted: Wed May 27, 2015 4:51 pm
by Robb
If anyone wants to grab a bite in midtown NY around 5:30 or 6 shoot me a PM- so far me, Lavitz, and a well know TLS stats/critic of law schools guy whose username is blocked from being said by the forums (it literally replaces the username with something else when you try to post it)
Re: Summer Associate Class of 2015: Get on In
Posted: Wed May 27, 2015 5:47 pm
by Lavitz
Robb wrote:a well know TLS stats/critic of law schools guy whose username is blocked from being said by the forums (it literally replaces the username with something else when you try to post it)
Regulus
Re: Summer Associate Class of 2015: Get on In
Posted: Wed May 27, 2015 8:24 pm
by Anonymous User
My office's Corporate group became "absolutely slammed" a couple weeks before the summer program started. I thought that be great for us summers interested in that work to gain some exposure to the practice. Instead it means that all of the pro bono cases that corporate associates were working on have fallen into the lap of the summers so they can focus on actual billable time.
It's cool because the cases are super interesting and they are having us do some fairly substantive work on them. But, I really want to gain some insight to what a corporate attorney does. Oh well...still a ton of time for that left.
Other than, I am loving it. Super friendly people. Free lunches. Events have been fun.