Why the fuck does anyone go to law school?

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ExBiglawAssociate
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Re: Why the fuck does anyone go to law school?

Postby ExBiglawAssociate » Fri May 01, 2015 8:15 pm

sublime wrote:As mentioned before, it can be a pretty good course of action from even a financial standpoint in certain situations (mainly low COA + low opportunity cost)


same with the lottery

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: Why the fuck does anyone go to law school?

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Sat May 02, 2015 1:18 am

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:
sublime wrote:As mentioned before, it can be a pretty good course of action from even a financial standpoint in certain situations (mainly low COA + low opportunity cost)


same with the lottery

You're being willfully obtuse. biglaw pays a lot of people a lot more than they'd make in any other field and you know it.

shock259
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Re: Why the fuck does anyone go to law school?

Postby shock259 » Sat May 02, 2015 6:30 am

For most people, bad decision.

I went because 1) no debt 2) bullshit liberal arts undergrad 3) like reading.

I'm now a 1st year in biglaw - it's unrelenting and totally unsustainable, but it's kind of fun in it's own weird way. And I am developing a skill set.

So I'd probably do it over again, assuming I can find something decent to jump to after I burn out on biglaw. Many of my undergrad friends with the same bullshit degree are working in customer service, going back to school for similarly stupid things (IE masters in international human trafficking), or have switched jobs 3 times in the past year.

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kalvano
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Re: Why the fuck does anyone go to law school?

Postby kalvano » Sat May 02, 2015 8:01 am

I'm pretty happy I went to law school. My job rocks. But in general, I think it's a pretty poor decision for most people. If I didn't have the job I have, I doubt I'd think I made a good decision.

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Re: Why the fuck does anyone go to law school?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon May 04, 2015 12:13 pm

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I totally disagree. I went to an elite undergrad, an elite law school, have a hard science masters from in an elite program, and worked at a prestigious and competitive job post-undergrad. My HYS law school classes are probably the smartest general group of people I know (oh, and I also did substantially better in law school than in undergrad).

I also feel, looking at what my non-law friends do, that some of this belly-aching is just a generational thing. We were all told when we were young to seek lovely perfect careers -- when, in fact, there are really few jobs that exist that are thoroughly great. I hear this same "woe is me" chorus coming from just about everyone I know. I don't think lawyers are uniquely frustrated (nor are we uniquely in debt). For what it's worth, I'd take what I'm doing over what 90-95% of my non-lawyer friends my age from similar backgrounds are doing any day (and the exceptions are things that I couldn't have done--like get a PhD in geosciences--given my undergrad major). I generally get paid more, feel like the work I'm doing is challenging and actually impacts the world in a positive way, and have a solid work-life balance. Sure, law is hard and debt sucks. But I wouldn't trade it for ibanking, accounting, medical residency, or k-12 teaching, let alone the many non-professional or semi-professional jobs that most people our age seem to be stuck in.

What would you rather be doing instead of law? Some jobs, like accounting or being an actuary, may present a better debt-to-earnings picture (at least over the short term). But would you really rather be an accountant? That sounds horrible to me. I'm pretty happy to leave some economic utility on the table in order to do something I like somewhat.


You had me there for a second, but the bolded gave you away as either a 0L or poorly crafted flame. No legal job pays well and "actually impacts the world in a positive way." Unless you're an AUSA or something, in which case 1) your GS salary is not really all that competitive with non-legal salaries (although I suppose there's a plausible argument to make here) and 2) you're the top 1% of law graduates who actually should have gone to law school and made a good decision. I never meant to claim that the tippy top of the legal profession is dumber/lazier/less-well-off. In fact, the tippy top of the legal profession is disproportionately well off (intellectually and otherwise) relative to the bottom of the legal profession when compared with the hierarchical order of other professions. The problem with the legal industry is that pretentious people like you (and law professors) brainwash the rest of us (dumber common folk) that because you succeed and are "having an impact," we all too can have an impact and great careers. That's just not true. And the fact of the matter is that your head is crammed so far up your ass that you can't even see how hard it is for the rest of us when our debt loads are much higher than literally every other graduate program (dentists and doctors don't count because almost all of them are guaranteed six-figure jobs for life (and with much better hours than an average attorney)).

One thing I've found is that lawyers, more than any other group of people I know, are much more open and willing to talk (i.e., brag) about their successes when they are clearly successful and much less willing to EVER admit ANY kind of deficiency in themselves whatsoever. For some particularly mentally ill attorneys, this psychosis bleeds over into the delusion that the entire legal profession is something other than a giant shitty mess for the vast majority of us with a select few living large at the top. You may fall into this latter category.


I'm a HYS graduate several years out--so not an 0L or a flame. You may be right that these sorts of jobs are only regularly open to top HYS grads. Without a doubt, my degree opened doors for me. But it's not the case that good law jobs are only open to HYS grads: 90% of the attorneys where I work are not T14 grads, so HYS is obviously not even close to a requirement for my job (although I think the chances of me landing my position having graduated from a solid but non-elite school would have been close to 0 for other reasons--notably, I had big issues with timing and ties that I was able to overcome).

I think there are far more legal jobs that pay decent money, require reasonable hours, and improve the world than most people on this board think--they're just a bit harder to find than biglaw (and very rarely do OCI). In your post, you've shifted the goalposts a lot. The title of the thread is "Why the fuck does anyone go to law school," not "Why the fuck do so many people go to law school." I'm also not sure why it's relevant that a GS salary may not be "really all that competitive with non-legal salaries" (I totally disagree on that count, incidentally--if I hypothetically were making a GS11 or GS12 salary right now, I'd be the best-compensated of all of my non-law school friends [all of whom are doing pretty legit things, albeit not in the financial world] and many of whom have debt levels similar to me). If you're actually complaining that a substantive and rewarding job like AUSA *only* pays a $70,000 starting salary (that goes up reasonably quickly into six figures), well, that's the sort of millennial entitlement I'm talking about--that's a starting salary of something like 125% the U.S. median household salary (with, I am sure, far better benefits). Also, as I mentioned in my previous post, I'm pretty happy leaving some $$s on the table to get a chance to do something that I find rewarding--although I think I'm only actually leaving money on the table relative to the legal jobs that I would have taken otherwise, and not relative to the non-legal jobs that I would have reasonably considered (aka not ibanking) had I not gone to law school.

I think there are tons of great reasons to go to law school and a ton of great post-law school jobs (albeit fewer if you're taking out $250,000 in debt, and certainly nowhere close to enough to justify the number of law schools that currently exist). I think better questions are "Why the fuck do so many HYS grads do biglaw?" or "what the fuck do graduates of unaccredited law schools think they're going to do?" (both of which I'm legitimately curious about). I absolutely agree with you that too many incoming law students don't have a good idea of what they want to do and get trapped in terrible careers. I also agree with you that biglaw is pretty awful and that there are far too many law students going to far too many law schools for the amount of decent jobs that are actually available. But biglaw is far from the best case scenario -- it's just the easiest-to-find lucrative scenario -- and it's misleading to extrapolate out from biglaw being bad to all of law being bad.

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Re: Why the fuck does anyone go to law school?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon May 04, 2015 1:25 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I totally disagree. I went to an elite undergrad, an elite law school, have a hard science masters from in an elite program, and worked at a prestigious and competitive job post-undergrad. My HYS law school classes are probably the smartest general group of people I know (oh, and I also did substantially better in law school than in undergrad).

I also feel, looking at what my non-law friends do, that some of this belly-aching is just a generational thing. We were all told when we were young to seek lovely perfect careers -- when, in fact, there are really few jobs that exist that are thoroughly great. I hear this same "woe is me" chorus coming from just about everyone I know. I don't think lawyers are uniquely frustrated (nor are we uniquely in debt). For what it's worth, I'd take what I'm doing over what 90-95% of my non-lawyer friends my age from similar backgrounds are doing any day (and the exceptions are things that I couldn't have done--like get a PhD in geosciences--given my undergrad major). I generally get paid more, feel like the work I'm doing is challenging and actually impacts the world in a positive way, and have a solid work-life balance. Sure, law is hard and debt sucks. But I wouldn't trade it for ibanking, accounting, medical residency, or k-12 teaching, let alone the many non-professional or semi-professional jobs that most people our age seem to be stuck in.

What would you rather be doing instead of law? Some jobs, like accounting or being an actuary, may present a better debt-to-earnings picture (at least over the short term). But would you really rather be an accountant? That sounds horrible to me. I'm pretty happy to leave some economic utility on the table in order to do something I like somewhat.


You had me there for a second, but the bolded gave you away as either a 0L or poorly crafted flame. No legal job pays well and "actually impacts the world in a positive way." Unless you're an AUSA or something, in which case 1) your GS salary is not really all that competitive with non-legal salaries (although I suppose there's a plausible argument to make here) and 2) you're the top 1% of law graduates who actually should have gone to law school and made a good decision. I never meant to claim that the tippy top of the legal profession is dumber/lazier/less-well-off. In fact, the tippy top of the legal profession is disproportionately well off (intellectually and otherwise) relative to the bottom of the legal profession when compared with the hierarchical order of other professions. The problem with the legal industry is that pretentious people like you (and law professors) brainwash the rest of us (dumber common folk) that because you succeed and are "having an impact," we all too can have an impact and great careers. That's just not true. And the fact of the matter is that your head is crammed so far up your ass that you can't even see how hard it is for the rest of us when our debt loads are much higher than literally every other graduate program (dentists and doctors don't count because almost all of them are guaranteed six-figure jobs for life (and with much better hours than an average attorney)).

One thing I've found is that lawyers, more than any other group of people I know, are much more open and willing to talk (i.e., brag) about their successes when they are clearly successful and much less willing to EVER admit ANY kind of deficiency in themselves whatsoever. For some particularly mentally ill attorneys, this psychosis bleeds over into the delusion that the entire legal profession is something other than a giant shitty mess for the vast majority of us with a select few living large at the top. You may fall into this latter category.


I'm a HYS graduate several years out--so not an 0L or a flame. You may be right that these sorts of jobs are only regularly open to top HYS grads. Without a doubt, my degree opened doors for me. But it's not the case that good law jobs are only open to HYS grads: 90% of the attorneys where I work are not T14 grads, so HYS is obviously not even close to a requirement for my job (although I think the chances of me landing my position having graduated from a solid but non-elite school would have been close to 0 for other reasons--notably, I had big issues with timing and ties that I was able to overcome).

I think there are far more legal jobs that pay decent money, require reasonable hours, and improve the world than most people on this board think--they're just a bit harder to find than biglaw (and very rarely do OCI). In your post, you've shifted the goalposts a lot. The title of the thread is "Why the fuck does anyone go to law school," not "Why the fuck do so many people go to law school." I'm also not sure why it's relevant that a GS salary may not be "really all that competitive with non-legal salaries" (I totally disagree on that count, incidentally--if I hypothetically were making a GS11 or GS12 salary right now, I'd be the best-compensated of all of my non-law school friends [all of whom are doing pretty legit things, albeit not in the financial world] and many of whom have debt levels similar to me). If you're actually complaining that a substantive and rewarding job like AUSA *only* pays a $70,000 starting salary (that goes up reasonably quickly into six figures), well, that's the sort of millennial entitlement I'm talking about--that's a starting salary of something like 125% the U.S. median household salary (with, I am sure, far better benefits). Also, as I mentioned in my previous post, I'm pretty happy leaving some $$s on the table to get a chance to do something that I find rewarding--although I think I'm only actually leaving money on the table relative to the legal jobs that I would have taken otherwise, and not relative to the non-legal jobs that I would have reasonably considered (aka not ibanking) had I not gone to law school.

I think there are tons of great reasons to go to law school and a ton of great post-law school jobs (albeit fewer if you're taking out $250,000 in debt, and certainly nowhere close to enough to justify the number of law schools that currently exist). I think better questions are "Why the fuck do so many HYS grads do biglaw?" or "what the fuck do graduates of unaccredited law schools think they're going to do?" (both of which I'm legitimately curious about). I absolutely agree with you that too many incoming law students don't have a good idea of what they want to do and get trapped in terrible careers. I also agree with you that biglaw is pretty awful and that there are far too many law students going to far too many law schools for the amount of decent jobs that are actually available. But biglaw is far from the best case scenario -- it's just the easiest-to-find lucrative scenario -- and it's misleading to extrapolate out from biglaw being bad to all of law being bad.


I agree with essentially all of this. I also am a HYS grad a couple years out. I agree that for many people, going to law school is a terrible decision. But I have a job that I really enjoy and find meaningful, and pays enough to live on -- though not enough to be wealthy. As the previous poster pointed out, making $70,000 is better than many Americans make, and with my current salary, I pay only $500 a year in loan payments, thanks to my school's loan repayment program. I was a random liberal arts major in undergrad, and I would never, ever have been able to get a job that pays an equivalent amount AND is as interesting/meaningful (maybe one or the other, but not both) without my law degree. Before law school, I was working as a waitress, so law school improved my career situation by leaps and bounds.

I think that law is like many other fields -- for some people, it makes no sense. Some people will find it boring. Some people make poor calculations about debt load versus likely income. Some people choose to go a lower-ranked law school and then are surprised they can't get a job. Some people at top schools go into biglaw because it's the easiest to get and pays the best, and then are unhappy. But that doesn't mean it's a bad choice for everyone by any means -- particularly if you're a person who's quite smart but didn't really do anything useful in undergrad, and if you choose your law school wisely with a good idea of what you plan to do with your degree and how likely that goal is.

smallfirmassociate
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Re: Why the fuck does anyone go to law school?

Postby smallfirmassociate » Mon May 04, 2015 3:49 pm

Most lawyers in this country work at neither a biglaw firm nor a federal clerkship. I'm not sure how hard OP looked for other options, but it's not that hard to find gainful employment as a lawyer with a degree from any strong regional / T30ish or up and respectable grades. Of course, someone who has been out of law school for some years might not have the inclination to start out at the "bottom" again as a non-biglaw associate, but that's a personal choice.

Why law school? I come and go to work when I want, take cases I want, am responsible for my own career and life, am treated like a professional, and occasionally get to work on really interesting stuff amid a sea of other stuff that ranges from barely tolerable to mildly interesting.

I have a job that doesn't require hard physical labor and is flexible enough that I could work late into life or retire early, or set up any number of part-time arrangements.

The money is ok.

It's not like other jobs are awesome, either. This law thing isn't all that bad.

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Holly Golightly
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Re: Why the fuck does anyone go to law school?

Postby Holly Golightly » Mon May 04, 2015 4:47 pm

I could not be happier with having gone to law school and having the job I have now, but I am one of those lucky unicorn-job people, so I'm not exactly representative of the vast majority of law grads.

catinthewall
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Re: Why the fuck does anyone go to law school?

Postby catinthewall » Mon May 04, 2015 4:55 pm

I was leaving active-duty military service, and I had to figure out what to do next. I immediately lined up a defense contractor position, but there would have been very little upward mobility for me there. I applied to law school when all those NYTimes articles were coming out saying not to enroll (2010-11).

I made a promise to myself: HYSCCN or top-30 on a full scholarship. After not getting into HYSCCN but still landing a full scholarship at a top-30, I figured the risk was worth it. I took my scholarship, resigned from the defense contractor job before my planned start date, and never looked back.

Fortunately, it worked out, but I did make a conscious effort to minimize my risk.

When I meet people who ask about going to law school, I advise them to do something similar: top law school or full scholarship. When I meet someone already in law school who has neither situation going for her, I am at a loss for words.

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bruinfan10
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Re: Why the fuck does anyone go to law school?

Postby bruinfan10 » Tue May 05, 2015 8:38 am

Holly Golightly wrote:I could not be happier with having gone to law school and having the job I have now, but I am one of those lucky unicorn-job people, so I'm not exactly representative of the vast majority of law grads.

Were you already financially stable (i.e. extensive savings from another job, rich and/or supported) before you accepted the job or are you just cool with living on a shoestring budget?

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Big Shrimpin
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Re: Why the fuck does anyone go to law school?

Postby Big Shrimpin » Tue May 05, 2015 9:28 am

tbh, sarcasm aside for a minute (inorite)

with LOANZ, i prob making same/comparable post-tax $$ that i would if id gone into engineering/consulting (which wouldve started me at like 65K or so), and those jerbs can be equally miz

i ran the #s long ago before i MATRICULATED, and with LOANZ, OPPORTUNITY COST, etc., my "break-even" point (if i had gone trad route into workforce) was like 5 full years or so

AS SUCH, if i can stand it in BIGLAW for long enough, once i hit year 5 (im into yr 3 now), i finish with LOANZ and post-tax earnings immediately increase by like 3K/mo...then its all GRAVY

of course, im sure ill somehow get SHITANNED as soon as that happens, at which point ill have my CHIPOTLE app ready to roll

the KEY in BIGLAW is trying to find a good group that jives well and respects your personal time...so like grind M-F when ur busy but try to stay hands-off on weekends/holidays...this DOES exist in biglaw, it's just fkcing RARE AF, but keep ur eyes and ears open

so 0Ls, just know what ur getting urself into...the job is MOSTLY miserable, but it pays VERY well...if u can go into the top finance gigs (IB/PE/HF), do that instead obvi...but if ur ambivalent and dont have a ton of applicable skills and wont have a ton of loanz and want to play in the big (stress) leagues...

then WELCOME to BIGLAW (also, do corp...better exit ops)

HTFH

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nahumya
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Re: Why the fuck does anyone go to law school?

Postby nahumya » Tue May 05, 2015 10:12 am

Big Shrimpin wrote:tbh, sarcasm aside for a minute (inorite)

with LOANZ, i prob making same/comparable post-tax $$ that i would if id gone into engineering/consulting (which wouldve started me at like 65K or so), and those jerbs can be equally miz

i ran the #s long ago before i MATRICULATED, and with LOANZ, OPPORTUNITY COST, etc., my "break-even" point (if i had gone trad route into workforce) was like 5 full years or so

AS SUCH, if i can stand it in BIGLAW for long enough, once i hit year 5 (im into yr 3 now), i finish with LOANZ and post-tax earnings immediately increase by like 3K/mo...then its all GRAVY

of course, im sure ill somehow get SHITANNED as soon as that happens, at which point ill have my CHIPOTLE app ready to roll

the KEY in BIGLAW is trying to find a good group that jives well and respects your personal time...so like grind M-F when ur busy but try to stay hands-off on weekends/holidays...this DOES exist in biglaw, it's just fkcing RARE AF, but keep ur eyes and ears open

so 0Ls, just know what ur getting urself into...the job is MOSTLY miserable, but it pays VERY well...if u can go into the top finance gigs (IB/PE/HF), do that instead obvi...but if ur ambivalent and dont have a ton of applicable skills and wont have a ton of loanz and want to play in the big (stress) leagues...

then WELCOME to BIGLAW (also, do corp...better exit ops)

HTFH


Needs more caps.

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Holly Golightly
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Re: Why the fuck does anyone go to law school?

Postby Holly Golightly » Tue May 05, 2015 10:15 am

bruinfan10 wrote:
Holly Golightly wrote:I could not be happier with having gone to law school and having the job I have now, but I am one of those lucky unicorn-job people, so I'm not exactly representative of the vast majority of law grads.

Were you already financially stable (i.e. extensive savings from another job, rich and/or supported) before you accepted the job or are you just cool with living on a shoestring budget?

I make more than enough to live on and my school pays my loans, so I'm good.

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Frayed Knot
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Re: Why the fuck does anyone go to law school?

Postby Frayed Knot » Tue May 05, 2015 10:22 am

Holly Golightly wrote:I could not be happier with having gone to law school and having the job I have now, but I am one of those lucky unicorn-job people, so I'm not exactly representative of the vast majority of law grads.

I wonder what percentage of TLSers end up in "unicorn jobs." We've had several post just in this thread.

And a lot of post-BigLaw landings are pretty random (especially for lit.) I mean, I'd probably call it a "unicorn job" if I end up working for some state agency I've never heard of, for a non-profit after being on their board, for a small company hiring their first in-house lawyer, or as a witness-prep consultant (all jobs I've seen people do after working at a firm). But adding up all those random positions ends up accounting for a lot of lawyers in their 40s and 50s. We just don't meet as many since we see the partners but not the people who have left.

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bruinfan10
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Re: Why the fuck does anyone go to law school?

Postby bruinfan10 » Tue May 05, 2015 10:40 am

Holly Golightly wrote:
bruinfan10 wrote:
Holly Golightly wrote:I could not be happier with having gone to law school and having the job I have now, but I am one of those lucky unicorn-job people, so I'm not exactly representative of the vast majority of law grads.

Were you already financially stable (i.e. extensive savings from another job, rich and/or supported) before you accepted the job or are you just cool with living on a shoestring budget?

I make more than enough to live on and my school pays my loans, so I'm good.

That's encouraging to hear. There's just no way I can see living in my home state and even considering saving some money (for retirement or even just saving period), owning instead of renting, and/or having the money to travel a little bit or maybe even start a family on any kind of public interest salary (aside from maybe BigFed after a few years working my way up the GS scale).

If you're managing any of those things while you're off saving the world at the same time, I want your life. But I'd imagine it's more likely you're either (a) from the south or midwest, (b) combining your PI/gov income with a partner's earnings, (c) living a little closer to paycheck to paycheck than I could, or (d) living that sweet AUSA life.

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Holly Golightly
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Re: Why the fuck does anyone go to law school?

Postby Holly Golightly » Tue May 05, 2015 10:54 am

bruinfan10 wrote:
Holly Golightly wrote:
bruinfan10 wrote:
Holly Golightly wrote:I could not be happier with having gone to law school and having the job I have now, but I am one of those lucky unicorn-job people, so I'm not exactly representative of the vast majority of law grads.

Were you already financially stable (i.e. extensive savings from another job, rich and/or supported) before you accepted the job or are you just cool with living on a shoestring budget?

I make more than enough to live on and my school pays my loans, so I'm good.

That's encouraging to hear. There's just no way I can see living in my home state and even considering saving some money (for retirement or even just saving period), owning instead of renting, and/or having the money to travel a little bit or maybe even start a family on any kind of public interest salary (aside from maybe BigFed after a few years working my way up the GS scale). If you're managing any of those things while you're off saving the world at the same time, I want your life. But I'd imagine it's more likely you're either (a) from the south or midwest, (b) combining your PI/gov income with a partner's earnings, (c) living a little closer to paycheck to paycheck than I could, or (d) living that sweet AUSA life.

I'm living in a very low-COL area right now, which definitely helps me be able to have money for traveling, which I do a decent amount of. I would eventually like to be back in Chicago, but that would also be doable on my current salary (and should be no problem in a few years as my pay goes up).

I had a biglaw offer, but I really couldn't be happier that I turned it down for what I'm doing now.

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Re: Why the fuck does anyone go to law school?

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Tue May 05, 2015 11:53 am

Big Shrimpin wrote:tbh, sarcasm aside for a minute (inorite)

with LOANZ, i prob making same/comparable post-tax $$ that i would if id gone into engineering/consulting (which wouldve started me at like 65K or so), and those jerbs can be equally miz

i ran the #s long ago before i MATRICULATED, and with LOANZ, OPPORTUNITY COST, etc., my "break-even" point (if i had gone trad route into workforce) was like 5 full years or so

AS SUCH, if i can stand it in BIGLAW for long enough, once i hit year 5 (im into yr 3 now), i finish with LOANZ and post-tax earnings immediately increase by like 3K/mo...then its all GRAVY

of course, im sure ill somehow get SHITANNED as soon as that happens, at which point ill have my CHIPOTLE app ready to roll

the KEY in BIGLAW is trying to find a good group that jives well and respects your personal time...so like grind M-F when ur busy but try to stay hands-off on weekends/holidays...this DOES exist in biglaw, it's just fkcing RARE AF, but keep ur eyes and ears open

so 0Ls, just know what ur getting urself into...the job is MOSTLY miserable, but it pays VERY well...if u can go into the top finance gigs (IB/PE/HF), do that instead obvi...but if ur ambivalent and dont have a ton of applicable skills and wont have a ton of loanz and want to play in the big (stress) leagues...

then WELCOME to BIGLAW (also, do corp...better exit ops)

HTFH

So much of the "do corp, better exit options" stuff seems to derive from the starting assumption that you'll hate your job no matter what so might as well maximize $$. It's not like biglaw lit is the most wonderful thing in the world but I can at least imagine taking my skills to a position I'd enjoy someday.

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DavidConeSplitter
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Re: Why the fuck does anyone go to law school?

Postby DavidConeSplitter » Tue May 05, 2015 1:45 pm

Sounds like Big Shrimpin got BEERLAW right outta law school now he just CHILLS THE FUCK OUT

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Big Shrimpin
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Re: Why the fuck does anyone go to law school?

Postby Big Shrimpin » Tue May 05, 2015 2:47 pm

dixiecupdrinking wrote:
Big Shrimpin wrote:tbh, sarcasm aside for a minute (inorite)

with LOANZ, i prob making same/comparable post-tax $$ that i would if id gone into engineering/consulting (which wouldve started me at like 65K or so), and those jerbs can be equally miz

i ran the #s long ago before i MATRICULATED, and with LOANZ, OPPORTUNITY COST, etc., my "break-even" point (if i had gone trad route into workforce) was like 5 full years or so

AS SUCH, if i can stand it in BIGLAW for long enough, once i hit year 5 (im into yr 3 now), i finish with LOANZ and post-tax earnings immediately increase by like 3K/mo...then its all GRAVY

of course, im sure ill somehow get SHITANNED as soon as that happens, at which point ill have my CHIPOTLE app ready to roll

the KEY in BIGLAW is trying to find a good group that jives well and respects your personal time...so like grind M-F when ur busy but try to stay hands-off on weekends/holidays...this DOES exist in biglaw, it's just fkcing RARE AF, but keep ur eyes and ears open

so 0Ls, just know what ur getting urself into...the job is MOSTLY miserable, but it pays VERY well...if u can go into the top finance gigs (IB/PE/HF), do that instead obvi...but if ur ambivalent and dont have a ton of applicable skills and wont have a ton of loanz and want to play in the big (stress) leagues...

then WELCOME to BIGLAW (also, do corp...better exit ops)

HTFH

So much of the "do corp, better exit options" stuff seems to derive from the starting assumption that you'll hate your job no matter what so might as well maximize $$. It's not like biglaw lit is the most wonderful thing in the world but I can at least imagine taking my skills to a position I'd enjoy someday.


yeah if you know you want to do lit ten by all means

i say corp bc biglaw is going to spin-out 90% of those who enter, so thinking about what you'll do after is important, and there are just more higher paying, better hours jobs in corp

i know lots of ex-biglaw lit ppl in mid/small firms and work is often just as hectic, and more often under staffed and without the support staff in biglaw...but again, if that's your thing (as it is mine), then whatever

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: Why the fuck does anyone go to law school?

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Tue May 05, 2015 4:51 pm

Yeah I agree. It's the better way to hedge your bets. I just think ppl forget that the answer should really be do whichever you think interests you more, then corp as a tiebreaker. If you're lucky enough to get paid $160k to learn to litigate and that's what you want to do then you gotta just do it.

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JCougar
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Re: Why the fuck does anyone go to law school?

Postby JCougar » Wed May 06, 2015 1:57 am

Tiago Splitter wrote:
Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Are we all really just a bunch of idiots?


Not all of us, but the vast majority of us. Yes.

It's more of a series of bad decisions than the way the OP described it to the immigrant though. No one sits there at 17 and thinks "I can't wait to waste the next 7 years of my life and 250k to get a law degree!" It's more like "I'm gonna go to college cuz that's what I'm supposed to do," followed by "I'm gonna fuck around and get a shitty GPA cuz that's what everyone else is doing and it's more fun," then "I hate my job and hate working generally and need to find an easy out that's less stigmatizing than welfare for life," to "A high LSAT is all? Really?" and then finally you're here.


Jesus. That describes me to a tee. Except I gave up more of a mid-level job.

Man am I an idiot.

bravos89
Posts: 33
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 9:39 pm

Re: Why the fuck does anyone go to law school?

Postby bravos89 » Wed May 06, 2015 3:10 am

I'm in Biglaw and I'm pretty happy with having gone to law school due to 1) no loans and 2) I actually enjoy the work which most people do not seem to. To be honest though, I don't really understand the thought process of people who take on massive loans to work in a job that they hate for about 3-5 years to end up back at even.

UpandDown97
Posts: 172
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Re: Why the fuck does anyone go to law school?

Postby UpandDown97 » Wed May 06, 2015 12:12 pm

bravos89 wrote:I'm in Biglaw and I'm pretty happy with having gone to law school due to 1) no loans and 2) I actually enjoy the work which most people do not seem to. To be honest though, I don't really understand the thought process of people who take on massive loans to work in a job that they hate for about 3-5 years to end up back at even.


Again, assuming you make some right moves and have the right background, after you break even you can go and do fulfilling and profitable work.

The amount of short-sightedness on this forum is ridiculous. Life does not stop at 35.

hiima3L
Posts: 837
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Re: Why the fuck does anyone go to law school?

Postby hiima3L » Wed May 06, 2015 2:19 pm

I went to LS because I've wanted to be a lawyer for as long as I can remember. Of course, I had no real idea what that entailed until well into law school. I wasn't totally clueless--family members and friends are lawyers--but I knew it would be a good fit for what I like doing (writing, reading, thinking about minituae, being obnoxious). I had a useless BA (knowing I was going to go to law school) and have planned on LS since I was about 16. I went to LS for very little and went into about 1/4-1/3 of the average debt load.

This last part of the equation is critical. I don't think I would have gone if I had to debt finance it. I didn't have the LSAT to get into a T14 (in retrospect, I should have retaken and tried harder, but oh well), and I knew going to 75% of law schools for sticker is obscenely stupid.

It turned out being a good decision. I love my job, I make more than both parents (individually) in my late 20s, and I've got what seems like a lot of opportunities.

That said, going to LS is a moronic decision for 99% of people.

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sinfiery
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Re: Why the fuck does anyone go to law school?

Postby sinfiery » Wed May 06, 2015 2:31 pm

JCougar wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:It's more of a series of bad decisions than the way the OP described it to the immigrant though. No one sits there at 17 and thinks "I can't wait to waste the next 7 years of my life and 250k to get a law degree!" It's more like "I'm gonna go to college cuz that's what I'm supposed to do," followed by "I'm gonna fuck around and get a shitty GPA cuz that's what everyone else is doing and it's more fun," then "I hate my job and hate working generally and need to find an easy out that's less stigmatizing than welfare for life," to "A high LSAT is all? Really?" and then finally you're here.


Jesus. That describes me to a tee. Except I gave up more of a mid-level job.

Man am I an idiot.

and here i thought i was unique




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