Why Some Men Pretend to Work 80-Hour Weeks

(On Campus Interviews, Summer Associate positions, Firm Reviews, Tips, ...)
Forum rules
Anonymous Posting

Anonymous posting is only appropriate when you are revealing sensitive employment related information about a firm, job, etc. You may anonymously respond on topic to these threads. Unacceptable uses include: harassing another user, joking around, testing the feature, or other things that are more appropriate in the lounge.

Failure to follow these rules will get you outed, warned, or banned.
User avatar
Desert Fox
Progressively loosing literacy
Posts: 14445
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2014 4:34 pm

Re: Why Some Men Pretend to Work 80-Hour Weeks

Postby Desert Fox » Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:00 pm

dixiecupdrinking wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:You're not on "partner track" anyway, hth.

I think you can get away with a lot more than people think in biglaw. Do good work all year then take a two-week vacation where you're largely out of pocket? People might grumble or make a snide comment or two, but you're not going to get fired, so who gives a shit. Is it going to impact your partnership prospects? Maybe, but that assumes they weren't at zero to begin with.

If you actually want to make partner, then you probably do need to be available 365 days a year, 7 days a week

What is your basis for this? Based on my relatively limited experience in big law, I don't think that's true.


I guess that depends on what "available means" and probably depends on the practice area and firm culture. If dixie means reachable in an emergency within a few hours? yea, but so do juniors. If he means answering a billion phone calls and mostly working while on vacation, that just isn't true.

But even in true emergencies--like a sudden TRO to embargo a billion dollar market of goods--partners on vacation would let someone who was still around take the lead.

IME, junior partners/senior associates with some legitimate hope of making partner simply do not unplug. They go on vacation but based on the speed with which they respond to things you would almost never know they weren't in the office. juniors and midlevels seem more apt to check out, say, hey I may have limited email access between Tuesday and Thursday or whatever, and really be unavailable. Some folks don't do it, and they probably judge the ones who do. But personally I think those are the people who are ruining it. I would rather cover for someone who's out of office and have them cover for me next year, than have everyone always be 75% available.

Anyway point is I think being truly unavailable for a few days as a "non-partner track" associate is fine. There's no such thing as an emergency that someone else can't figure out, and they won't fire you for not answering an email during a period you told your bosses, and they assented, that you wouldn't be able to answer email.


I think you work at a sweatshop.

User avatar
wiseowl
Posts: 1071
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2008 4:38 pm

Re: Why Some Men Pretend to Work 80-Hour Weeks

Postby wiseowl » Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:03 pm

There's also too much handwringing over what "partner track" means. Yes, everyone knows that hardly anyone actually makes partner. Still, if you're nominally eligible to someday be up for partner, you're on "partner track." This distinguishes from staff attorneys, contract attorneys, doc reviewers, people on flex time that have surrendered partner prospects, of counsels that are no longer in consideration, career associates, etc.

User avatar
ymmv
Posts: 13040
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:36 pm

Re: Why Some Men Pretend to Work 80-Hour Weeks

Postby ymmv » Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:05 pm

wiseowl wrote:There's also too much handwringing over what "partner track" means. Yes, everyone knows that hardly anyone actually makes partner. Still, if you're nominally eligible to someday be up for partner, you're on "partner track." This distinguishes from staff attorneys, contract attorneys, doc reviewers, people on flex time that have surrendered partner prospects, of counsels that are no longer in consideration, career associates, etc.


90% of associates seem conspicuously absent from this list.

User avatar
bjsesq
TLS Poet Laureate
Posts: 13383
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2010 3:02 am

Re: Why Some Men Pretend to Work 80-Hour Weeks

Postby bjsesq » Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:06 pm

Honest to god question: how common are career associates? That just sounds like the shittiest existence imaginable.

User avatar
Desert Fox
Progressively loosing literacy
Posts: 14445
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2014 4:34 pm

Re: Why Some Men Pretend to Work 80-Hour Weeks

Postby Desert Fox » Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:08 pm

ymmv wrote:
wiseowl wrote:There's also too much handwringing over what "partner track" means. Yes, everyone knows that hardly anyone actually makes partner. Still, if you're nominally eligible to someday be up for partner, you're on "partner track." This distinguishes from staff attorneys, contract attorneys, doc reviewers, people on flex time that have surrendered partner prospects, of counsels that are no longer in consideration, career associates, etc.


90% of associates seem conspicuously absent from this list.


Partner track doesn't mean "shoo in." It means person who is eligible to be considered. AKA 90% of associates at a typical firm.

User avatar
wiseowl
Posts: 1071
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2008 4:38 pm

Re: Why Some Men Pretend to Work 80-Hour Weeks

Postby wiseowl » Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:10 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
ymmv wrote:
wiseowl wrote:There's also too much handwringing over what "partner track" means. Yes, everyone knows that hardly anyone actually makes partner. Still, if you're nominally eligible to someday be up for partner, you're on "partner track." This distinguishes from staff attorneys, contract attorneys, doc reviewers, people on flex time that have surrendered partner prospects, of counsels that are no longer in consideration, career associates, etc.


90% of associates seem conspicuously absent from this list.


Partner track doesn't mean "shoo in." It means person who is eligible to be considered. AKA 90% of associates at a typical firm.


^
What I meant, written more succinctly.

User avatar
Desert Fox
Progressively loosing literacy
Posts: 14445
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2014 4:34 pm

Re: Why Some Men Pretend to Work 80-Hour Weeks

Postby Desert Fox » Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:22 pm

By partners joked about making me do work on vacation. Clearly they aren't writing me off for the AUDACITY of taking vacay.

If taking vacation ruins your reputation, you are at a sweat shop.

User avatar
rpupkin
Posts: 3864
Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:32 pm

Re: Why Some Men Pretend to Work 80-Hour Weeks

Postby rpupkin » Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:27 pm

bjsesq wrote:Honest to god question: how common are career associates? That just sounds like the shittiest existence imaginable.

That's basically what "Of Counsel" is. Not necessarily shitty, depending on the arrangement between the counsel and the firm. Seems better to me than being a junior partner, which is basically like being a senior associate + admin responsibilities + pressure to bring in business.

User avatar
Desert Fox
Progressively loosing literacy
Posts: 14445
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2014 4:34 pm

Re: Why Some Men Pretend to Work 80-Hour Weeks

Postby Desert Fox » Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:29 pm

rpupkin wrote:
bjsesq wrote:Honest to god question: how common are career associates? That just sounds like the shittiest existence imaginable.

That's basically what "Of Counsel" is. Not necessarily shitty, depending on the arrangement between the counsel and the firm. Seems better to me than being a junior partner, which is basically like being a senior associate + admin responsibilities + pressure to bring in business.



in some firms of counsel is essentially the new junior partner.

User avatar
Holly Golightly
Posts: 4618
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2010 10:30 am

Re: Why Some Men Pretend to Work 80-Hour Weeks

Postby Holly Golightly » Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:34 pm

At the small firm I worked at, partners and associates would take vacations where they were unavailable. And the director of the org I'm at now does the same.

User avatar
JohannDeMann
Posts: 13831
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 4:25 pm

Re: Why Some Men Pretend to Work 80-Hour Weeks

Postby JohannDeMann » Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:36 pm

TheUnicornHunter wrote:
JohannDeMann wrote:You should even just start with - what percentage of jobs have a fucking work email tied to a personal device. That's something unique to the professional service industry. That shit is not normal. Less than 10%.


Nah dude, my gf designs clothes for a living and they loaded her shit up with company e-mail and a way to access their servers remotely.


I read something about the 20/20/20 fashion/media aspiring workers. Available 20 hours a day, in their 20s age, and paid in the 20s of thousands. Basically how these people get milked as interns in a more pyramid scheme than biglaw. That shit def sounded terrible. Sucks for your gf, she (prolly) has me beat.

User avatar
JohannDeMann
Posts: 13831
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 4:25 pm

Re: Why Some Men Pretend to Work 80-Hour Weeks

Postby JohannDeMann » Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:39 pm

Holly Golightly wrote:At the small firm I worked at, partners and associates would take vacations where they were unavailable. And the director of the org I'm at now does the same.


lets not include play jobs with biglaw. orgs arent in the prof serv industry.

User avatar
Holly Golightly
Posts: 4618
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2010 10:30 am

Re: Why Some Men Pretend to Work 80-Hour Weeks

Postby Holly Golightly » Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:41 pm

JohannDeMann wrote:
Holly Golightly wrote:At the small firm I worked at, partners and associates would take vacations where they were unavailable. And the director of the org I'm at now does the same.


lets not include play jobs with biglaw. orgs arent in the prof serv industry.

lolk

User avatar
earthabides
Posts: 305
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2014 7:48 pm

Re: Why Some Men Pretend to Work 80-Hour Weeks

Postby earthabides » Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:43 pm

JohannDeMann wrote:You should even just start with - what percentage of jobs have a fucking work email tied to a personal device. That's something unique to the professional service industry. That shit is not normal. Less than 10%.


I don't know anyone who works in an office and does not have their work email on a personal device.

User avatar
ymmv
Posts: 13040
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:36 pm

Re: Why Some Men Pretend to Work 80-Hour Weeks

Postby ymmv » Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:45 pm

earthabides wrote:
JohannDeMann wrote:You should even just start with - what percentage of jobs have a fucking work email tied to a personal device. That's something unique to the professional service industry. That shit is not normal. Less than 10%.


I don't know anyone who works in an office and does not have their work email on a personal device.


Yup. Johann remarkably off-base on this one.

User avatar
JohannDeMann
Posts: 13831
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 4:25 pm

Re: Why Some Men Pretend to Work 80-Hour Weeks

Postby JohannDeMann » Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:58 pm

earthabides wrote:
JohannDeMann wrote:You should even just start with - what percentage of jobs have a fucking work email tied to a personal device. That's something unique to the professional service industry. That shit is not normal. Less than 10%.


I don't know anyone who works in an office and does not have their work email on a personal device.

I'm talking about on a mobile device that you check routinely. None of my non lawyer friends do. They have laptops where you can log in to work from home and access the network, but this is like for people that actually work from home on a Friday instead of going to the office. No one brings the laptop home from work with them. This includes accountant, HR workers at F500 companies, nurses, teachers, people in client services positions at Chase/BOA, science lab engineers, a financial analyst. Ive had to explain to my non law friends multiple times getting work emails on my iPhone.

User avatar
Holly Golightly
Posts: 4618
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2010 10:30 am

Re: Why Some Men Pretend to Work 80-Hour Weeks

Postby Holly Golightly » Thu Apr 30, 2015 3:00 pm

JohannDeMann wrote:
earthabides wrote:
JohannDeMann wrote:You should even just start with - what percentage of jobs have a fucking work email tied to a personal device. That's something unique to the professional service industry. That shit is not normal. Less than 10%.


I don't know anyone who works in an office and does not have their work email on a personal device.

I'm talking about on a mobile device that you check routinely. None of my non lawyer friends do. They have laptops where you can log in to work from home and access the network, but this is like for people that actually work from home on a Friday instead of going to the office. No one brings the laptop home from work with them. This includes accountant, HR workers at F500 companies, nurses, teachers, people in client services positions at Chase/BOA, science lab engineers, a financial analyst. Ive had to explain to my non law friends multiple times getting work emails on my iPhone.

I have plenty of non-law friends who get work emails on their iPhones. Off the top of my head, professors, graphic designers, and librarians.

User avatar
ymmv
Posts: 13040
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:36 pm

Re: Why Some Men Pretend to Work 80-Hour Weeks

Postby ymmv » Thu Apr 30, 2015 3:03 pm

JohannDeMann wrote:
earthabides wrote:
JohannDeMann wrote:You should even just start with - what percentage of jobs have a fucking work email tied to a personal device. That's something unique to the professional service industry. That shit is not normal. Less than 10%.


I don't know anyone who works in an office and does not have their work email on a personal device.

I'm talking about on a mobile device that you check routinely. None of my non lawyer friends do. They have laptops where you can log in to work from home and access the network, but this is like for people that actually work from home on a Friday instead of going to the office. No one brings the laptop home from work with them. This includes accountant, HR workers at F500 companies, nurses, teachers, people in client services positions at Chase/BOA, science lab engineers, a financial analyst. Ive had to explain to my non law friends multiple times getting work emails on my iPhone.


All of my 20- and 30-something friends working in office jobs or startups respond to work email on their phones just about any time of day or night. And they typically (or always) bring their work laptops home. Your experience sounds bizarrely foreign to me.

User avatar
rpupkin
Posts: 3864
Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:32 pm

Re: Why Some Men Pretend to Work 80-Hour Weeks

Postby rpupkin » Thu Apr 30, 2015 3:09 pm

ymmv wrote:
JohannDeMann wrote:
earthabides wrote:
JohannDeMann wrote:You should even just start with - what percentage of jobs have a fucking work email tied to a personal device. That's something unique to the professional service industry. That shit is not normal. Less than 10%.


I don't know anyone who works in an office and does not have their work email on a personal device.

I'm talking about on a mobile device that you check routinely. None of my non lawyer friends do. They have laptops where you can log in to work from home and access the network, but this is like for people that actually work from home on a Friday instead of going to the office. No one brings the laptop home from work with them. This includes accountant, HR workers at F500 companies, nurses, teachers, people in client services positions at Chase/BOA, science lab engineers, a financial analyst. Ive had to explain to my non law friends multiple times getting work emails on my iPhone.


All of my 20- and 30-something friends working in office jobs or startups respond to work email on their phones just about any time of day or night. And they typically (or always) bring their work laptops home. Your experience sounds bizarrely foreign to me.

Agree.

User avatar
wiseowl
Posts: 1071
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2008 4:38 pm

Re: Why Some Men Pretend to Work 80-Hour Weeks

Postby wiseowl » Thu Apr 30, 2015 3:17 pm

This battle of the anecdotes has kinda gone off the rails. Can we agree that other people take phones and laptops home? Can we also agree they likely do not use them to the extent that biglolyers do?

User avatar
JohannDeMann
Posts: 13831
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 4:25 pm

Re: Why Some Men Pretend to Work 80-Hour Weeks

Postby JohannDeMann » Thu Apr 30, 2015 3:35 pm

I don't know anyone in startups so that may be true. But LOL at a teacher having work email or a nurse on a phone. If your job doesn't supply you with a smart phone, then it's not necessary to put work email on your phone or respond to it. If someone voluntarily puts email on their phone as a convenience to do email while riding the train or something, then that's a lot different than being forced to do email and available. The government doesn't even let you put email on a personal device due to security concerns. And all my friends in corporate monkey jobs don't have it and the company does not supply a phone. So nah, I'm not going to agree that more than 10% of people have work email tied to their phone by anything more than choice.

User avatar
Holly Golightly
Posts: 4618
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2010 10:30 am

Re: Why Some Men Pretend to Work 80-Hour Weeks

Postby Holly Golightly » Thu Apr 30, 2015 3:38 pm

My job doesn't supply me with a smart phone but I am absolutely expected to have it on there anyway. You know, at my "play job."

User avatar
Tiago Splitter
Posts: 15515
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:20 am

Re: Why Some Men Pretend to Work 80-Hour Weeks

Postby Tiago Splitter » Thu Apr 30, 2015 3:39 pm

ymmv wrote:
earthabides wrote:
JohannDeMann wrote:You should even just start with - what percentage of jobs have a fucking work email tied to a personal device. That's something unique to the professional service industry. That shit is not normal. Less than 10%.


I don't know anyone who works in an office and does not have their work email on a personal device.


Yup. Johann remarkably off-base on this one.

You guys need to meet more people

User avatar
rpupkin
Posts: 3864
Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:32 pm

Re: Why Some Men Pretend to Work 80-Hour Weeks

Postby rpupkin » Thu Apr 30, 2015 4:09 pm

wiseowl wrote:This battle of the anecdotes has kinda gone off the rails. Can we agree that other people take phones and laptops home? Can we also agree they likely do not use them to the extent that biglolyers do?

Not sure you'll get agreement on this. It really depends on the industry and company culture. My brother is a technical project manager for a software company, and he checks his email/works from his laptop way more than I do. My Dad is in sales and, not surprisingly, can't go 5 minutes without looking at his phone.

Sure, if you're an administrative assistant who works business hours at an office, you're probably free and clear once you walk out the door at 5:30. But for professionals who make what big law associates make, I think the expectation is increasingly that you're reachable after hours. It's not just a big law thing.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273536
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Why Some Men Pretend to Work 80-Hour Weeks

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Apr 30, 2015 10:19 pm

JohannDeMann wrote:I don't know anyone in startups so that may be true. But LOL at a teacher having work email or a nurse on a phone. If your job doesn't supply you with a smart phone, then it's not necessary to put work email on your phone or respond to it. If someone voluntarily puts email on their phone as a convenience to do email while riding the train or something, then that's a lot different than being forced to do email and available. The government doesn't even let you put email on a personal device due to security concerns. And all my friends in corporate monkey jobs don't have it and the company does not supply a phone. So nah, I'm not going to agree that more than 10% of people have work email tied to their phone by anything more than choice.

Not true. My wife works at a school and is expected to check and respond to emails after work (and she does so on their phone). During some weeks, she worked more hours than me (in big law in major market) with reports/grading.




Return to “Legal Employment”

Who is online

The online users are hidden on this forum.