Why Some Men Pretend to Work 80-Hour Weeks

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Desert Fox
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Why Some Men Pretend to Work 80-Hour Weeks

Postby Desert Fox » Wed Apr 29, 2015 12:35 pm


Cogburn87
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Re: Why Some Men Pretend to Work 80-Hour Weeks

Postby Cogburn87 » Wed Apr 29, 2015 1:03 pm

The industrial revolution and its consequences etc.

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Desert Fox
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Re: Why Some Men Pretend to Work 80-Hour Weeks

Postby Desert Fox » Wed Apr 29, 2015 1:04 pm

I think this is very interesting because I see a lot of this at play in biglaw.

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Capitol_Idea
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Re: Why Some Men Pretend to Work 80-Hour Weeks

Postby Capitol_Idea » Wed Apr 29, 2015 1:05 pm

So lawyers have been PRETENDING all this time?

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Yukos
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Re: Why Some Men Pretend to Work 80-Hour Weeks

Postby Yukos » Wed Apr 29, 2015 1:06 pm

I want to say "fuck boomers" but I'm this type of culture is so ingrained in firms now that it will reproduce itself forever.

Good article though.

NotMyRealName09
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Re: Why Some Men Pretend to Work 80-Hour Weeks

Postby NotMyRealName09 » Wed Apr 29, 2015 1:13 pm

http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/ ... yness.html

Here's one about women. I work with a girl like this - a good friend, but always "SOOOO BUSY!!!" Can't make lunch, sooo busy! Can't do drinks, gotta write a brief! Yada yada, we get it, you're super busy because you're sooo cool.

http://www.theguardian.com/news/oliver- ... g-epidemic

Here's one that apparently coined the phrase "busy-brag."

https://hbr.org/2013/09/please-stop-complaining-about/

Another one from HBR - behind a paywall so I haven't read it.

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Re: Why Some Men Pretend to Work 80-Hour Weeks

Postby AReasonableMan » Wed Apr 29, 2015 1:20 pm

In my first job my supervisor told me the trick to succeeding is to pretend you're always busy. I learned 5 years later this was bad advice. I think a lot of it goes back to the nature of primates. Unless they need food at that moment they have a hard time focusing on a task for more than a minute at a time. They are prosocial and will help a friend get food if asked, but lose focus very easily and need to be redirected constantly. The time a given task takes is correlated with how much time the monkey soliciting puts into a task when they're subsequently asked to return the favor. this results in a lack of efficiency on most collaborative tasks that monkeys take on unless they're all hungry at a given time. we're all just a buncha monkeys.

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PariSiamo
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Re: Why Some Men Pretend to Work 80-Hour Weeks

Postby PariSiamo » Wed Apr 29, 2015 1:23 pm

^what? I could not follow that at all

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AreJay711
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Re: Why Some Men Pretend to Work 80-Hour Weeks

Postby AreJay711 » Wed Apr 29, 2015 1:24 pm

NotMyRealName09 wrote:http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/03/brigid_schulte_s_overwhelmed_and_our_epidemic_of_busyness.html

Here's one about women. I work with a girl like this - a good friend, but always "SOOOO BUSY!!!" Can't make lunch, sooo busy! Can't do drinks, gotta write a brief! Yada yada, we get it, you're super busy because you're sooo cool.

http://www.theguardian.com/news/oliver- ... g-epidemic

Here's one that apparently coined the phrase "busy-brag."

https://hbr.org/2013/09/please-stop-complaining-about/

Another one from HBR - behind a paywall so I haven't read it.


That shit's so annoying and obviously bullshit. I have a friend like that. It's not like I'm trying to rage all night / do a three hour power lunch. The most overworked dude at the worst sweatshop has 30 min to an hour free at some point over the weekend. Last time I visited his city he got all butthurt I didn't try to meet up with him even though the last three times I was there he was too "busy."

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Re: Why Some Men Pretend to Work 80-Hour Weeks

Postby Yukos » Wed Apr 29, 2015 1:25 pm

NotMyRealName09 wrote:http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/03/brigid_schulte_s_overwhelmed_and_our_epidemic_of_busyness.html

Here's one about women. I work with a girl like this - a good friend, but always "SOOOO BUSY!!!" Can't make lunch, sooo busy! Can't do drinks, gotta write a brief! Yada yada, we get it, you're super busy because you're sooo cool.


You should read the article, it's not about this at all.

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Re: Why Some Men Pretend to Work 80-Hour Weeks

Postby NotMyRealName09 » Wed Apr 29, 2015 1:39 pm

Yukos wrote:
NotMyRealName09 wrote:http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/03/brigid_schulte_s_overwhelmed_and_our_epidemic_of_busyness.html

Here's one about women. I work with a girl like this - a good friend, but always "SOOOO BUSY!!!" Can't make lunch, sooo busy! Can't do drinks, gotta write a brief! Yada yada, we get it, you're super busy because you're sooo cool.


You should read the article, it's not about this at all.


" “My God, people are competing about being busy,” Burnett realized. “It’s about showing status. That if you’re busy, you’re important. You’re leading a full and worthy life. … As if you don’t get to choose, busyness is just there. I call it the nonchoice choice. Because people really do have a choice.”

“It’s very popular, the feeling that there are too many things going on, that people can’t get in control of their lives and the like,” Robinson says. “But when we look at peoples’ diaries there just doesn’t seem to be the evidence to back it up … It’s a paradox. When you tell people they have thirty or forty hours of free time every week, they don’t want to believe it.”

That's where a vision of my friend popped into my head.
Last edited by NotMyRealName09 on Wed Apr 29, 2015 1:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Yukos
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Re: Why Some Men Pretend to Work 80-Hour Weeks

Postby Yukos » Wed Apr 29, 2015 1:40 pm

NotMyRealName09 wrote:
Yukos wrote:
NotMyRealName09 wrote:http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/03/brigid_schulte_s_overwhelmed_and_our_epidemic_of_busyness.html

Here's one about women. I work with a girl like this - a good friend, but always "SOOOO BUSY!!!" Can't make lunch, sooo busy! Can't do drinks, gotta write a brief! Yada yada, we get it, you're super busy because you're sooo cool.


You should read the article, it's not about this at all.


" “My God, people are competing about being busy,” Burnett realized. “It’s about showing status. That if you’re busy, you’re important. You’re leading a full and worthy life. … As if you don’t get to choose, busyness is just there. I call it the nonchoice choice. Because people really do have a choice.”

That's where a vision of my friend popped into my head.


I meant the article in the OP but whatever. Sorry to hear about your friend.

NotMyRealName09
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Re: Why Some Men Pretend to Work 80-Hour Weeks

Postby NotMyRealName09 » Wed Apr 29, 2015 1:42 pm

Yukos wrote:
NotMyRealName09 wrote:
Yukos wrote:
NotMyRealName09 wrote:http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/03/brigid_schulte_s_overwhelmed_and_our_epidemic_of_busyness.html

Here's one about women. I work with a girl like this - a good friend, but always "SOOOO BUSY!!!" Can't make lunch, sooo busy! Can't do drinks, gotta write a brief! Yada yada, we get it, you're super busy because you're sooo cool.


You should read the article, it's not about this at all.


" “My God, people are competing about being busy,” Burnett realized. “It’s about showing status. That if you’re busy, you’re important. You’re leading a full and worthy life. … As if you don’t get to choose, busyness is just there. I call it the nonchoice choice. Because people really do have a choice.”

That's where a vision of my friend popped into my head.


I meant the article in the OP but whatever. Sorry to hear about your friend.


Oh I see, yeah I know they aren't quite the same, but still in the realm of "being busy is a measure of worth" realm of thought.

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Re: Why Some Men Pretend to Work 80-Hour Weeks

Postby seizmaar » Wed Apr 29, 2015 1:58 pm


KidStuddi
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Re: Why Some Men Pretend to Work 80-Hour Weeks

Postby KidStuddi » Wed Apr 29, 2015 2:32 pm

NotMyRealName09 wrote:
“It’s very popular, the feeling that there are too many things going on, that people can’t get in control of their lives and the like,” Robinson says. “But when we look at peoples’ diaries there just doesn’t seem to be the evidence to back it up … It’s a paradox. When you tell people they have thirty or forty hours of free time every week, they don’t want to believe it.”



This is pretty much how I feel about people who say working 60 hour weeks destroys any possibility of having a social life.

zot1
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Re: Why Some Men Pretend to Work 80-Hour Weeks

Postby zot1 » Wed Apr 29, 2015 3:00 pm

I don't think in the current market being busy is necessarily choice. Sure it would have been nice to do the bare minimum during law school, but would that have allowed me to get summer work? Or post-grad work?

I'm still in law school, but I can imagine this not being too different for current attorneys. Would you get that bonus/promotion if you're not going beyond what you're being asked to do? It doesn't help that if you don't go above and beyond, someone else will.

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Re: Why Some Men Pretend to Work 80-Hour Weeks

Postby JohannDeMann » Wed Apr 29, 2015 3:10 pm

KidStuddi wrote:
NotMyRealName09 wrote:
“It’s very popular, the feeling that there are too many things going on, that people can’t get in control of their lives and the like,” Robinson says. “But when we look at peoples’ diaries there just doesn’t seem to be the evidence to back it up … It’s a paradox. When you tell people they have thirty or forty hours of free time every week, they don’t want to believe it.”



This is pretty much how I feel about people who say working 60 hour weeks destroys any possibility of having a social life.


you still single though dude.

Biglaw is fine for having free times and hobbies just you individually enjoy. The problem is your available hours to do these things are basically limited and hard to plan for with lots of other people. It's easy if you are playing a video game or watching a sports game to pause the game and respond to a partner. Its a lot harder if you are hiking with your spouse or at a teeball game without your laptop to be available at all times. Al the people in that article that have it figured out are still basically available at all times of the day. That basically precludes family dinners outside of your house, attending children events, and doing things with your SO where you aren't within 5 mins of your laptop and an electrical outlet.

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Desert Fox
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Re: Why Some Men Pretend to Work 80-Hour Weeks

Postby Desert Fox » Wed Apr 29, 2015 3:16 pm

JohannDeMann wrote:
KidStuddi wrote:
NotMyRealName09 wrote:
“It’s very popular, the feeling that there are too many things going on, that people can’t get in control of their lives and the like,” Robinson says. “But when we look at peoples’ diaries there just doesn’t seem to be the evidence to back it up … It’s a paradox. When you tell people they have thirty or forty hours of free time every week, they don’t want to believe it.”



This is pretty much how I feel about people who say working 60 hour weeks destroys any possibility of having a social life.


you still single though dude.

Biglaw is fine for having free times and hobbies just you individually enjoy. The problem is your available hours to do these things are basically limited and hard to plan for with lots of other people. It's easy if you are playing a video game or watching a sports game to pause the game and respond to a partner. Its a lot harder if you are hiking with your spouse or at a teeball game without your laptop to be available at all times. Al the people in that article that have it figured out are still basically available at all times of the day. That basically precludes family dinners outside of your house, attending children events, and doing things with your SO where you aren't within 5 mins of your laptop and an electrical outlet.


IMO, the article supports that it's really more about fronting that you are all in. You can be skiing with your family, yet, you take a call pretend you are slammed with work, and continue skiiing. You get shit for saying, "hey guys i'm with my kids, I'll do it later."

By pretending you are dedicated, people assume that when DF is unavailable it's because he is busy, and when Mrs. ShrewMom is busy it's because she's watching Tv with her kids.

You can be out to dinner, but don't call it a family dinner.

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Re: Why Some Men Pretend to Work 80-Hour Weeks

Postby JohannDeMann » Wed Apr 29, 2015 3:23 pm

yeah but i mean skiing with your kids probably means hanging out in the cabin plugged into the wall for at least 8 hours of 8 am to 8pm. I agree some of it is about fronting. But IME at this firm the people that claim to have work life balance just really have a lower threshold of what constitutes a life.

I agree its dumb to say I'm going to eat dinner with my family at 5pm instead of just leaving at 5pm with your laptop and people assume you are plugging in from home. But the reality is the person that leaves at 5pm is still almost always available to be reached by email for the next 4 hours.

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Re: Why Some Men Pretend to Work 80-Hour Weeks

Postby JohannDeMann » Wed Apr 29, 2015 3:28 pm

For example, before I was in biglaw at another job I took a vacation to South America for 2 weeks. Never plugged in. No service no nothing. Completely unreachable. I was with 10 friends and everyone was able to do the same. All of these guys are mid to upper 20s guys and half had very legit careers just not in prof services. That vacation is not feasible for someone in biglaw to do every year. My friends can continue doing that shit. To some people, that's not a sacrifice at all. But I still think that's a pretty baseline thing to be able to do if you want to.

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Re: Why Some Men Pretend to Work 80-Hour Weeks

Postby smallfirmassociate » Wed Apr 29, 2015 3:51 pm

You can be beyond reproach if you're really good at what you do.

OR

If if you are decent and what you do and really, really hard.

Basically by definition, 90% of people aren't in the first group. And nobody likes to be criticized.

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Desert Fox
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Re: Why Some Men Pretend to Work 80-Hour Weeks

Postby Desert Fox » Wed Apr 29, 2015 3:58 pm

Baring deadlines that are set in stone, I could definitely just bullshit and not show up for 5 days.

The problem is that the amount of work means I have to work a lot over the entire year, but any given day I could farris bueler.

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Re: Why Some Men Pretend to Work 80-Hour Weeks

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Apr 29, 2015 4:23 pm

So I'm just closing in on a 180 hour month (so extrapolated out to about 2150 hours) in a second tier market where 1800-1900 is the general target.

To give some of you what sort of schedule that entails, this month I've done the following:

Generally worked 9-7:15 M-Th., 9-6 F.

Had two business trips -- one overnight, one day.

Prepared for and did two oral arguments (both only about an hour).

Had two fire drills (emergency 15 page motion prepared and filed in 48 hours and a 12 page memo assigned on Friday and due Monday COB).

Worked three late nights (10:00 pm or later).

Worked one full weekend day and two halfish weekend days.

Took off early to watch opening day (worked from home afterward).

Took off early for my kid's birthday.

Worked from home one morning and one afternoon.

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Re: Why Some Men Pretend to Work 80-Hour Weeks

Postby rpupkin » Wed Apr 29, 2015 4:29 pm

Anonymous User wrote:So I'm just closing in on a 180 hour month (so extrapolated out to about 2150 hours) in a second tier market where 1800-1900 is the general target.

To give some of you what sort of schedule that entails, this month I've done the following:

Generally worked 9-7:15 M-Th., 9-6 F.

Had two business trips -- one overnight, one day.

Prepared for and did two oral arguments (both only about an hour).

Had two fire drills (emergency 15 page motion prepared and filed in 48 hours and a 12 page memo assigned on Friday and due Monday COB).

Worked three late nights (10:00 pm or later).

Worked one full weekend day and two halfish weekend days.

Took off early to watch opening day (worked from home afterward).

Took off early for my kid's birthday.

Worked from home one morning and one afternoon.

Sounds about right. I think some law students don't appreciate that 180 (honestly billed) hours is going to make for a very busy month compared to most jobs. People assume that anything under 200 hours is manageable--and maybe it is--but it can still be a ton of work.

I don't know how the people who claim to bill 3000 hours a year do it.

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Re: Why Some Men Pretend to Work 80-Hour Weeks

Postby bretby » Wed Apr 29, 2015 4:36 pm

I just showed that article to someone at the bank where I work, and her response was "good thing we don't have a culture like that here!"

Except we do, we very much do. Denial is such a powerful drug.




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