Getting out of Patent Litigation

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kcdc1
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Re: Getting out of Patent Litigation

Postby kcdc1 » Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:06 pm

SplitMyPants wrote:
jhett wrote:I left as well, to an IP boutique where my billing rate is halved and so I get twice as much time to complete pros assignments. I'm angling for more non-pros work as well due to the commoditization you mentioned.


How does the boutique pay and billables compare to a biglaw GP, if you don't mind?

I'm at a midlaw boutique with biglaw pay and roughly biglaw hours. I think this varies quite a bit firm-to-firm tho.

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orangered
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Re: Getting out of Patent Litigation

Postby orangered » Fri Jun 26, 2015 12:07 am

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:I'm not sure why any of you would think patent litigation is a good idea at this point.


Lots of solid knowledge being dropped in this thread -- thanks for that.

Personally, I already know how to do pros. I've been an agent for years and done IPR/CBM work. However, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, IMO there's not really a future for biglaw prosecution. Midlaw prosecution can be the good life: interesting work and easy billing with a low rate and a low hour requirement. However, the pay is not that much different from an EE job in industry, which is kind of depressing when I think of the time and opportunity cost I'm spending going to law school. Still, I'm not interested in patent lit for the money; it's about trying to be the best, and in my experience prosecution doesn't reward being the best any more than it rewards being competent.

Thankfully, I will be going to a good school and I have an EE background, so I have two of checkboxes you mentioned as needed for being successful in lit. There are a lot more I want to check: getting good grades in law school, clerking at NDCA, CDCA, or CAFC, building useful skills, getting a reputation at my firm for producing good work, and getting a reputation in the patent lit community for being exceptional, and getting business. Who knows if I'll be able to check even one of those boxes. The point is I want to try.

If I fail, I can always go back to good ol' reliable prosecution, even if it's in a boutique. It's like riding a bicycle or swimming: once you learn you never forget.

So there's my long-winded, idealistic answer for why I want to try patent litigation. To be honest, I wrote this more for myself than anything. I want to look at this in 5 years (hell, seven months) and see how stupid -- or how motivated -- I was during 0L summer.

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lacrossebrother
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Re: Getting out of Patent Litigation

Postby lacrossebrother » Fri Jun 26, 2015 12:18 am

Desert Fox wrote:Patent litigators don't just have to defend huge competitor suits. Who the hell do you think is filling all these troll suits?

But agree that pros is the safer bet.

Tech transaction, i dunno but that sounds like mostly flame

Without the risk of losing the company in lit, my tech company preferred boutiques who could prosecute EE patents for $10k. Would you really recommend that someone go to a job that can bill $300/hour instead of biglit rates bc you're afraid of senator goodlatte?

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lacrossebrother
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Re: Getting out of Patent Litigation

Postby lacrossebrother » Fri Jun 26, 2015 12:19 am

Oh whoops the guy above me made my post useless.

Anonymous User
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Re: Getting out of Patent Litigation

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jun 27, 2015 2:10 am

Boutiques that pay a percentage can pay really well if you can do the work. I know of several firms that pay in the 40% to 50% range. I get 40%, work around 1750-1800 hours (all billed, I only work within the budget) and get paid more than I would at the larger BigLaw firms.

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SplitMyPants
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Re: Getting out of Patent Litigation

Postby SplitMyPants » Sat Jun 27, 2015 6:16 am

Anonymous User wrote:Boutiques that pay a percentage can pay really well if you can do the work. I know of several firms that pay in the 40% to 50% range. I get 40%, work around 1750-1800 hours (all billed, I only work within the budget) and get paid more than I would at the larger BigLaw firms.


Percentage of what? You're saying you get 40% of your billable rate?

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Re: Getting out of Patent Litigation

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jun 27, 2015 12:44 pm

Percentage of your billings that get billed out to a client. So, if an application has a budget of $14k, you get $5600 for that application if you bill to the budget and you get 40%. If you go over the budget, then the most you get is $5600 since it's all about billed hours.

I've heard that some remote/virtual attorney firms can go up to 70%, but I haven't been able to verify that.

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Re: Getting out of Patent Litigation

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 03, 2015 11:52 am

Patent litigation pessimists: please explain the recent uptick in filings:
https://lexmachina.com/spring-2015-pate ... -trends-2/

So was Spangenberg wrong??
http://www.ipnav.com/blog/erich-spangen ... -for-2015/

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ExBiglawAssociate
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Re: Getting out of Patent Litigation

Postby ExBiglawAssociate » Fri Jul 03, 2015 1:11 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Patent litigation pessimists: please explain the recent uptick in filings:
https://lexmachina.com/spring-2015-pate ... -trends-2/

So was Spangenberg wrong??
http://www.ipnav.com/blog/erich-spangen ... -for-2015/


Just speculating, but I'm guessing a lot of those are declaratory judgment suits based on Alice, which means they won't last longer than a year (at most) and will yield extremely low billables compared to cases with full blown discovery and trial.

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Re: Getting out of Patent Litigation

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 03, 2015 2:55 pm

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Patent litigation pessimists: please explain the recent uptick in filings:
https://lexmachina.com/spring-2015-pate ... -trends-2/

So was Spangenberg wrong??
http://www.ipnav.com/blog/erich-spangen ... -for-2015/


Just speculating, but I'm guessing a lot of those are declaratory judgment suits based on Alice, which means they won't last longer than a year (at most) and will yield extremely low billables compared to cases with full blown discovery and trial.


Nope, according to Lex Machina, there's no increase in declaratory judgment filings comparing first half of 2014 versus first half of 2015.

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ExBiglawAssociate
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Re: Getting out of Patent Litigation

Postby ExBiglawAssociate » Fri Jul 03, 2015 3:28 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Patent litigation pessimists: please explain the recent uptick in filings:
https://lexmachina.com/spring-2015-pate ... -trends-2/

So was Spangenberg wrong??
http://www.ipnav.com/blog/erich-spangen ... -for-2015/


Just speculating, but I'm guessing a lot of those are declaratory judgment suits based on Alice, which means they won't last longer than a year (at most) and will yield extremely low billables compared to cases with full blown discovery and trial.


Nope, according to Lex Machina, there's no increase in declaratory judgment filings comparing first half of 2014 versus first half of 2015.


Ah, well there you go. I have noticed a big uptick in ANDA suits on Docket Navigator. Does Lex have a breakdown of ANDA vs. non-ANDA?

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Re: Getting out of Patent Litigation

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jul 03, 2015 4:54 pm

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Patent litigation pessimists: please explain the recent uptick in filings:
https://lexmachina.com/spring-2015-pate ... -trends-2/

So was Spangenberg wrong??
http://www.ipnav.com/blog/erich-spangen ... -for-2015/


Just speculating, but I'm guessing a lot of those are declaratory judgment suits based on Alice, which means they won't last longer than a year (at most) and will yield extremely low billables compared to cases with full blown discovery and trial.


Nope, according to Lex Machina, there's no increase in declaratory judgment filings comparing first half of 2014 versus first half of 2015.


Ah, well there you go. I have noticed a big uptick in ANDA suits on Docket Navigator. Does Lex have a breakdown of ANDA vs. non-ANDA?


There was a big jump in ANDA cases from 2013 to 2014, and a small dip from 2014 to 2015.

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Desert Fox
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DFTHREAD

Postby Desert Fox » Fri Jul 03, 2015 5:16 pm

fobstory.jpeg
Last edited by Desert Fox on Thu Jan 07, 2016 4:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

kcdc1
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Re: Getting out of Patent Litigation

Postby kcdc1 » Fri Jul 03, 2015 6:24 pm

Desert Fox wrote:Lets just hope the trial lawyers lobby keeps fee shifting out of the bills in congress.

I'm not convinced that the current fee-shifting proposals would deter the stronger trolls. The fees shift in both directions. If a troll has a strong case, they stand to get an award of attorneys fees in addition to the damage award. And IPR's don't look like they'll have fee-shifting. So if the patent survives the IPR, the patent owner is in great shape to win the litigation, collect damages, and a fee award.

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ExBiglawAssociate
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Re: Getting out of Patent Litigation

Postby ExBiglawAssociate » Fri Jul 03, 2015 7:47 pm

kcdc1 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Lets just hope the trial lawyers lobby keeps fee shifting out of the bills in congress.

I'm not convinced that the current fee-shifting proposals would deter the stronger trolls. The fees shift in both directions. If a troll has a strong case, they stand to get an award of attorneys fees in addition to the damage award. And IPR's don't look like they'll have fee-shifting. So if the patent survives the IPR, the patent owner is in great shape to win the litigation, collect damages, and a fee award.

A patent owner with a good case is not a patent troll. It may be a non-practicing entity, but not all non-practicing entities are patent trolls.

kcdc1
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Re: Getting out of Patent Litigation

Postby kcdc1 » Fri Jul 03, 2015 8:52 pm

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:
kcdc1 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Lets just hope the trial lawyers lobby keeps fee shifting out of the bills in congress.

I'm not convinced that the current fee-shifting proposals would deter the stronger trolls. The fees shift in both directions. If a troll has a strong case, they stand to get an award of attorneys fees in addition to the damage award. And IPR's don't look like they'll have fee-shifting. So if the patent survives the IPR, the patent owner is in great shape to win the litigation, collect damages, and a fee award.

A patent owner with a good case is not a patent troll. It may be a non-practicing entity, but not all non-practicing entities are patent trolls.

Nomenclature aside, concerns re: fee-shifting killing patent litigation seem greatly overstated. Seems to me that it could easily increase litigation instead.

Anonymous User
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Re: Getting out of Patent Litigation

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 04, 2015 11:20 am

So have IP Lit groups stopped hiring/started firing? Spangenberg predicted we'd be seeing massive layoffs by now.

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SplitMyPants
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Re: Getting out of Patent Litigation

Postby SplitMyPants » Sat Jul 04, 2015 11:37 am

Anonymous User wrote:So have IP Lit groups stopped hiring/started firing? Spangenberg predicted we'd be seeing massive layoffs by now.


FWIW, a lot of firms are hiring for "IP Lit Only" at PLIP.

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Re: Getting out of Patent Litigation

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jul 04, 2015 11:48 am

SplitMyPants wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:So have IP Lit groups stopped hiring/started firing? Spangenberg predicted we'd be seeing massive layoffs by now.


FWIW, a lot of firms are hiring for "IP Lit Only" at PLIP.


Yes but just because a firm does interviews at PLIP doesn't mean they're actually going to hire anyone from PLIP.

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lacrossebrother
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Re: Getting out of Patent Litigation

Postby lacrossebrother » Sat Jul 04, 2015 12:47 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
SplitMyPants wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:So have IP Lit groups stopped hiring/started firing? Spangenberg predicted we'd be seeing massive layoffs by now.


FWIW, a lot of firms are hiring for "IP Lit Only" at PLIP.


Yes but just because a firm does interviews at PLIP doesn't mean they're actually going to hire anyone from PLIP.

But it would make sense that pros takes an equal or harder hit, right?

kcdc1
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Re: Getting out of Patent Litigation

Postby kcdc1 » Sun Jul 05, 2015 9:34 am

lacrossebrother wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
SplitMyPants wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:So have IP Lit groups stopped hiring/started firing? Spangenberg predicted we'd be seeing massive layoffs by now.


FWIW, a lot of firms are hiring for "IP Lit Only" at PLIP.


Yes but just because a firm does interviews at PLIP doesn't mean they're actually going to hire anyone from PLIP.

But it would make sense that pros takes an equal or harder hit, right?

Doubtful. Alice has been the only "reform" that really hits pros, and it only hits software pros. More likely that the firms hiring for IP lit only are biglaw firms that can't or don't want to swing the lower margins in pros. Pros can also create conflicts for litigation, which seems to be more of an issue for biglaw firms (where you might have just a handful of IP partners, so conflicting any one out of a major litigation hurts). The upshot is that pros is generally a better fit for boutiques than for biglaw firms, which is nothing new.

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ExBiglawAssociate
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Re: Getting out of Patent Litigation

Postby ExBiglawAssociate » Sun Jul 05, 2015 9:46 am

kcdc1 wrote:
Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:
kcdc1 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Lets just hope the trial lawyers lobby keeps fee shifting out of the bills in congress.

I'm not convinced that the current fee-shifting proposals would deter the stronger trolls. The fees shift in both directions. If a troll has a strong case, they stand to get an award of attorneys fees in addition to the damage award. And IPR's don't look like they'll have fee-shifting. So if the patent survives the IPR, the patent owner is in great shape to win the litigation, collect damages, and a fee award.

A patent owner with a good case is not a patent troll. It may be a non-practicing entity, but not all non-practicing entities are patent trolls.

Nomenclature aside, concerns re: fee-shifting killing patent litigation seem greatly overstated.

That doesn't seem to be the consensus among commentators on Patently-O / Law360, but I hope you're right.




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