NY v. Texas Forum

[JAYINSD]

Lot's of midsize Dallas/Houston firm pay market at least for the first year. And Houston legal market is twice big as Dallas market.

[wiz]

Market might be a different today but the linked chart below shows 362 going to firms of 251+ in Dallas/Austin/Houston in 2009 and 245 in 2010. Overall class of 2013 placed about 10% more into big firms than 2010, but more than 20% less than 2009. I don't know how many people in TX at firms of fewer than 251 are getting market pay.

http://www.nalp.org/law_firm_jobs_in_2010

There are definitely firms in TX between 50 and 250 getting 160k, but those firms obviously have small class sizes.

I also think there are more than 362 in Houston alone. But Dallas is probably less than half of Houston, and Austin is tiny.

[Tiago Splitter]

Texas sent 114 people from the class of 2013 into firms of 251+ but just 19 into firms of 51-250. Seems like the 251+ number might be pretty meaingful. But maybe there's a lot of non-NALP firms in TX.

[wiz]

NALP gives 325 SA's in Houston alone, if you add V&E and Fulbright it's closer to 400 (not counting the other firms that aren't on NALP). Obviously NALP doesn't equal 251+, and I didn't check for market pay, but my sense is that the majority of the SA's in Houston are getting market.

I think the only NALP firm in Houston that pays below market is Seyfarth Shaw. There are a handful of sub-160s in Dallas though.

[wiz]

Texas sent 114 people from the class of 2013 into firms of 251+ but just 19 into firms of 51-250. Seems like the 251+ number might be pretty meaingful. But maybe there's a lot of non-NALP firms in TX.

There are, but the number is still meaningful because the 51-250 firms generally have single digit class sizes. I can think of several non-NALP firms between 51 and ~100 that hire 2-8 SAs.

And as someone said, the new NALP forms for the two largest TX firms (by class size) aren't up yet.

[Pneumonia]

I also think there are more than 362 in Houston alone. But Dallas is probably less than half of Houston, and Austin is tiny.

Yeah Houston is at 335 right now per NALP, and that number doesn't include V&E and Fulbright. I'm guessing those have around 50 each at least? So that bumps Houston up to around 450.

Then you've got the non-NALP firms in Houston. There are several of those that I can think off the top of my head that take 6-8 summers each (and all pay market or better). I think 500 SA's for Houston is a reasonable estimate. If Dallas is half of that and Austin is 50 SA's (the most common number I've heard thrown around, Zuck?) then that's around 800 SA's in Texas.

ETA: BUT, a lot of those are going to be splits, so the "real" number would be lower. Not half of 800, but still lower. Maybe around 500 - 600 Summer Associates?

[BigZuck]

50 in Austin sounds high, but that's just me Monoing

Baker Botts is at 6 SAs in Austin so in light of that and considering the other shops, yeah, maybe around 50?

Again, this is totally me Monoing here but 500ish sounds right

[wiz]

I also think there are more than 362 in Houston alone. But Dallas is probably less than half of Houston, and Austin is tiny.

Yeah Houston is at 335 right now per NALP, and that number doesn't include V&E and Fulbright. I'm guessing those have around 50 each at least? So that bumps Houston up to around 450.

Then you've got the non-NALP firms in Houston. There are several of those that I can think off the top of my head that take 6-8 summers each (and all pay market or better). I think 500 SA's for Houston is a reasonable estimate. If Dallas is half of that and Austin is 50 SA's (the most common number I've heard thrown around, Zuck?) then that's around 800 SA's in Texas.

ETA: BUT, a lot of those are going to be splits, so the "real" number would be lower. Not half of 800, but still lower. Maybe around 500 - 600 Summer Associates?

Oh yeah, good call. I wasn't considering splits.

But even then, splitting is being phased out. There are only a handful of second half firms in Houston (total SAs probably around 60 or 70). And speaking of second half firms, I just noticed Locke Lord also doesn't have an updated NALP form.

[wiz]

I would be surprised if Austin had 50, but I guess there are a bunch of 2s and 3s, so maybe those add up to a reasonable number.

[Pneumonia]

50 in Austin sounds high, but that's just me Monoing

Baker Botts is at 6 SAs in Austin so in light of that and considering the other shops, yeah, maybe around 50?

Again, this is totally me Monoing here but 500ish sounds right

I would be surprised if Austin had 50, but I guess there are a bunch of 2s and 3s, so maybe those add up to a reasonable number.

I think 50 is safe, I just clicked through NALP and got 53. Some of those were below market (some significantly so, ie Graves Dougherty at 130k). Also, I think 8ish were 1L spots, but again, NRF isn't on NALP.

[Pneumonia]

But even then, splitting is being phased out. There are only a handful of second half firms in Houston (total SAs probably around 60 or 70). And speaking of second half firms, I just noticed Locke Lord also doesn't have an updated NALP form.

Yeah it does seem like splits are going away, and definitely so at the bigger firms in particular. I'm with you that taking splits into consideration maybe only knocks 150-200 spots off of the total number.

[wiz]

Fwiw, here are the numbers I have for 2013 Houston SAs:

V&E: 39 2Ls, 15 1Ls
Fulbright: 22 2Ls, 13 1Ls
Locke Lord: 17 2Ls, 9 1Ls


The Dallas offices for those firms probably have about half the number of SAs.

[Anonymous User]

Fwiw, here are the numbers I have for 2013 Houston SAs:

V&E: 39 2Ls, 15 1Ls
Fulbright: 22 2Ls, 13 1Ls
Locke Lord: 17 2Ls, 9 1Ls


The Dallas offices for those firms probably have about half the number of SAs.

Not really sure what the point of this is, but did want to throw out the Baker Botts numbers:

BB Houston - 40 2Ls, 9 1Ls
BB Dallas - 18 2Ls, 8 1Ls

So half for Dallas seems about right.

[wiz]

Fwiw, here are the numbers I have for 2013 Houston SAs:

V&E: 39 2Ls, 15 1Ls
Fulbright: 22 2Ls, 13 1Ls
Locke Lord: 17 2Ls, 9 1Ls


The Dallas offices for those firms probably have about half the number of SAs.

Not really sure what the point of this is, but did want to throw out the Baker Botts numbers:

BB Houston - 40 2Ls, 9 1Ls
BB Dallas - 18 2Ls, 8 1Ls

So half for Dallas seems about right.

Not much of a point. We were just trying to estimate how many SA positions are available in TX after adjusting for split summers, 1Ls, and firms not listed on NALP.

[Anonymous User]

Texas associate here. Some random observations:

1. The compensation issue is not clear cut. Texas is not lockstep, especially when it comes to bonuses. My firm pays NYC scale base to all class years, but bonuses have a merit component that can lead to significant variance from NYC total compensation. Other firms have a merit component to base pay and some don't pay NYC scale across all class years. Texas associates probably still come out ahead on COL.

2. Generally speaking, associates in Texas seem more collegial to me. About 60% of my work involves deals opposite Texas counsel. The rest involves deals opposite NYC/Chi counsel. For me, there is a big work environment difference between (a) the local Texas associate opposite me calling me to note that I made a minor mistake in a draft I just circulated and giving me the opportunity to fix it myself and (b) the NYC associate email blasting all 30 people on the deal noting my mistake and wondering if the terms of the deal have changed. Ultimately it's on me because I made the mistake, but I feel like there is more of a gotcha attitude when dealing with NYC counsel.

3. Leverage ratio is generally lower in Texas. I think that is better for junior associates in terms of getting substantive experience and building relationships with partners.

4. Work is more diverse in NYC and it leads to more diverse exit opportunities.

[nothingtosee]

Texas associate here. Some random observations:

1. The compensation issue is not clear cut. Texas is not lockstep, especially when it comes to bonuses. My firm pays NYC scale base to all class years, but bonuses have a merit component that can lead to significant variance from NYC total compensation. Other firms have a merit component to base pay and some don't pay NYC scale across all class years. Texas associates probably still come out ahead on COL.

How does one figure out which firms do which compensation?

[JAYINSD]

Texas associate here. Some random observations:

1. The compensation issue is not clear cut. Texas is not lockstep, especially when it comes to bonuses. My firm pays NYC scale base to all class years, but bonuses have a merit component that can lead to significant variance from NYC total compensation. Other firms have a merit component to base pay and some don't pay NYC scale across all class years. Texas associates probably still come out ahead on COL.

How does one figure out which firms do which compensation?

No, you can't. I would assume every major secondary market do not do NY lock step, even though the first year starts at 160.

[Anonymous User]

How come no one mentioned that Texas is hell on earth from May through September?

I grew up there. One of the last summers I spent I was working a job where I parked in an open asphalt lot. It was like the second hottest summer in the past 100 years. It got so hot that I'd have to come out and start the car with the AC at full blast 10 minutes or so before driving home. The steering wheel was some sort of rubber composite, and it would have partially melted so that I'd risk warping it if I drove before the car had cooled down.

I remember visiting family a few years ago in late June. The temperature gauge on the rental was reading 115 on the road. That's not even the hottest part of the year.

Hell. Though I live somewhere with great weather now (Denver, which has maybe the nicest four-season climate in the US), and I really, really appreciate it.

[chicagoriver]

How come no one mentioned that Texas is hell on earth from May through September?

I grew up there. One of the last summers I spent I was working a job where I parked in an open asphalt lot. It was like the second hottest summer in the past 100 years. It got so hot that I'd have to come out and start the car with the AC at full blast 10 minutes or so before driving home. The steering wheel was some sort of rubber composite, and it would have partially melted so that I'd risk warping it if I drove before the car had cooled down.

I remember visiting family a few years ago in late June. The temperature gauge on the rental was reading 115 on the road. That's not even the hottest part of the year.

Hell. Though I live somewhere with great weather now (Denver, which has maybe the nicest four-season climate in the US), and I really, really appreciate it.

The worst is TX nights, the temp stays above 90. Some other city like Atlanta do get hot during the day, but the temp goes down quite a bit in the nights.

[Anonymous User]

How come no one mentioned that Texas is hell on earth from May through September?

I grew up there. One of the last summers I spent I was working a job where I parked in an open asphalt lot. It was like the second hottest summer in the past 100 years. It got so hot that I'd have to come out and start the car with the AC at full blast 10 minutes or so before driving home. The steering wheel was some sort of rubber composite, and it would have partially melted so that I'd risk warping it if I drove before the car had cooled down.

I remember visiting family a few years ago in late June. The temperature gauge on the rental was reading 115 on the road. That's not even the hottest part of the year.

Hell. Though I live somewhere with great weather now (Denver, which has maybe the nicest four-season climate in the US), and I really, really appreciate it.

Yeah. Texas has pretty unbearable summers. But, TBF, the winters are honestly nice most of the time. And in NY or DC, you also have pretty shitty summers coupled with cold winters. I dont know...weather at the end of the day is kind of a wash for me unless we're talking CA (or Denver, which I agree would be really nice, especially since you have snow sports in the winter)

[Anonymous User]

Denver, which I agree would be really nice, especially since you have snow sports in the winter

Yeah, the dirty secret no one in Denver wants to get out is that winters are pretty mild here -- usually in the 40s or 50s, sunny, etc., with the occasional snow storm melting in a day or two. But drive up to the mountains, and you've got world class skiing within 90 minutes (and decent skiing within about 50 minutes) from November to April.