Disciplinary Action in Law School--C&F?

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Honeysuckle
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Re: Disciplinary Action in Law School--C&F?

Postby Honeysuckle » Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:33 pm

Do I have any legal recourse if my original school refuses to readmit me? Isn't bipolar disorder a disability protected by the ADA? Yes, I was disruptive, but that was BEFORE I was being actively treated.

catinthewall
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Re: Disciplinary Action in Law School--C&F?

Postby catinthewall » Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:39 pm

Honeysuckle wrote:Do I have any legal recourse if my original school refuses to readmit me? Isn't bipolar disorder a disability protected by the ADA? Yes, I was disruptive, but that was BEFORE I was being actively treated.


While there are plenty of lawyers on here who can (and will) try to answer this for you, I suggest that this is something you discuss with your C&F Counsel. Perhaps they can draft a letter to your school, explaining the situation and getting ahead of future potential issues, such as this.

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Honeysuckle
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Re: Disciplinary Action in Law School--C&F?

Postby Honeysuckle » Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:45 pm

catinthewall wrote:
Honeysuckle wrote:Do I have any legal recourse if my original school refuses to readmit me? Isn't bipolar disorder a disability protected by the ADA? Yes, I was disruptive, but that was BEFORE I was being actively treated.


While there are plenty of lawyers on here who can (and will) try to answer this for you, I suggest that this is something you discuss with your C&F Counsel. Perhaps they can draft a letter to your school, explaining the situation and getting ahead of future potential issues, such as this.


I have consulted with various disability lawyers for free, but I have not retained one yet. So, you're sayin I should hire an attorney to rep me in my readmission cycle in addition to C&F? I was thinking of hiring an attorney only in the event that the school rejects me.

I have been seeing a psychiatrist monthly, a psychotherapist weekly, and a bipolar support group weekly. All of my treatment providers, in addition to a forensic psychologist, will write and send evaluations to the school stating that I am now mentally stable on my medication (80 mg. Latuda) and that I do not present a danger to myself or others.

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Re: Disciplinary Action in Law School--C&F?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:20 pm

Honeysuckle wrote:
catinthewall wrote:
Honeysuckle wrote:Do I have any legal recourse if my original school refuses to readmit me? Isn't bipolar disorder a disability protected by the ADA? Yes, I was disruptive, but that was BEFORE I was being actively treated.


While there are plenty of lawyers on here who can (and will) try to answer this for you, I suggest that this is something you discuss with your C&F Counsel. Perhaps they can draft a letter to your school, explaining the situation and getting ahead of future potential issues, such as this.


I have consulted with various disability lawyers for free, but I have not retained one yet. So, you're sayin I should hire an attorney to rep me in my readmission cycle in addition to C&F? I was thinking of hiring an attorney only in the event that the school rejects me.

I have been seeing a psychiatrist monthly, a psychotherapist weekly, and a bipolar support group weekly. All of my treatment providers, in addition to a forensic psychologist, will write and send evaluations to the school stating that I am now mentally stable on my medication (80 mg. Latuda) and that I do not present a danger to myself or others.


Ah, I see. Perhaps in your submission of all your evaluations, you could include your plan to enroll at your local law school as a visiting student but mention that you look forward to returning to graduate. I think getting out ahead of the issue, which includes keeping your law school apprised of your future plans, will be helpful.

Edit: Sorry about the accidental anon - this is catinthewall
Last edited by Anonymous User on Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Honeysuckle
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Re: Disciplinary Action in Law School--C&F?

Postby Honeysuckle » Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:27 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Honeysuckle wrote:
catinthewall wrote:
Honeysuckle wrote:Do I have any legal recourse if my original school refuses to readmit me? Isn't bipolar disorder a disability protected by the ADA? Yes, I was disruptive, but that was BEFORE I was being actively treated.


While there are plenty of lawyers on here who can (and will) try to answer this for you, I suggest that this is something you discuss with your C&F Counsel. Perhaps they can draft a letter to your school, explaining the situation and getting ahead of future potential issues, such as this.


I have consulted with various disability lawyers for free, but I have not retained one yet. So, you're sayin I should hire an attorney to rep me in my readmission cycle in addition to C&F? I was thinking of hiring an attorney only in the event that the school rejects me.

I have been seeing a psychiatrist monthly, a psychotherapist weekly, and a bipolar support group weekly. All of my treatment providers, in addition to a forensic psychologist, will write and send evaluations to the school stating that I am now mentally stable on my medication (80 mg. Latuda) and that I do not present a danger to myself or others.


Ah, I see. Perhaps in your submission of all your evaluations, you could include your plan to enroll at your local law school as a visiting student but mention that you look forward to returning to graduate. I think getting out ahead of the issue, which includes keeping your law school apprised of your future plans, will be helpful.


Do you think I should retain a disability law attorney before I get rejected?

catinthewall
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Re: Disciplinary Action in Law School--C&F?

Postby catinthewall » Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:37 pm

Honeysuckle wrote:Do you think I should retain a disability law attorney before I get rejected?


Depends on whether the cost would be an issue. You might end up paying a retainer and not be rejected. Perhaps, if it becomes an issue, you can consider hiring an attorney. From what I can tell, you're not there yet.

catinthewall
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Re: Disciplinary Action in Law School--C&F?

Postby catinthewall » Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:41 pm

Try not to focus on something that could but hasn't happened yet. Try not to focus on things that are beyond your control.

Right now, take care of you. Get out ahead of your law school with your evals and future intentions. Figure out the visiting student logistics. Lean on your support network if you need them. Things will work out.

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Honeysuckle
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Re: Disciplinary Action in Law School--C&F?

Postby Honeysuckle » Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:48 pm

catinthewall wrote:Try not to focus on something that could but hasn't happened yet. Try not to focus on things that are beyond your control.

Right now, take care of you. Get out ahead of your law school with your evals and future intentions. Figure out the visiting student logistics. Lean on your support network if you need them. Things will work out.


Thanks. I am just terrified that my school will discriminate against me by rejecting me outright, especially given my disciplinary history.

Re: visiting student logistics, I contacted the four local law schools, explained my situation, and they agreed to extend their application deadline especially for me to August (normally you have to apply earlier, but I explained that my original school has to accept me first, and that they are not willing to consider me until late July/early August).

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Re: Disciplinary Action in Law School--C&F?

Postby Desert Fox » Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:51 pm

u got sorta violent twice, it isn't discrimination it is common sense.
Last edited by Desert Fox on Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

catinthewall
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Re: Disciplinary Action in Law School--C&F?

Postby catinthewall » Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:53 pm

Honeysuckle wrote:
catinthewall wrote:Try not to focus on something that could but hasn't happened yet. Try not to focus on things that are beyond your control.

Right now, take care of you. Get out ahead of your law school with your evals and future intentions. Figure out the visiting student logistics. Lean on your support network if you need them. Things will work out.


Thanks. I am just terrified that my school will discriminate against me by rejecting me outright, especially given my disciplinary history.

Re: visiting student logistics, I contacted the four local law schools, explained my situation, and they agreed to extend their application deadline especially for me to August (normally you have to apply earlier, but I explained that my original school has to accept me first, and that they are not willing to consider me until late July/early August).


Sounds good. Do what you can, one thing at a time.

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Honeysuckle
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Re: Disciplinary Action in Law School--C&F?

Postby Honeysuckle » Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:05 pm

Desert Fox wrote:u got sorta violent twice, it isn't discrimination it is common sense.


It was not being adequately addressed at the time the misconduct occurred. Now I am under intensive treatment to address the underlying cause (bipolar disorder) of the disruptive behaviors. I see a psychiatrist once a month, a psychotherapist once a week and a bipolar support group once a week. I am doing everything I can to rehabilitate myself. If my treatment providers assert that I am mentally well enough to resume my studies and don't present a danger to myself or others, and the school still decides not to readmit me, that's discrimination. Bipolar disorder is protected by the ADA.

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Re: Disciplinary Action in Law School--C&F?

Postby Desert Fox » Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:33 pm

Honeysuckle wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:u got sorta violent twice, it isn't discrimination it is common sense.


It was not being adequately addressed at the time the misconduct occurred. Now I am under intensive treatment to address the underlying cause (bipolar disorder) of the disruptive behaviors. I see a psychiatrist once a month, a psychotherapist once a week and a bipolar support group once a week. I am doing everything I can to rehabilitate myself. If my treatment providers assert that I am mentally well enough to resume my studies and don't present a danger to myself or others, and the school still decides not to readmit me, that's discrimination. Bipolar disorder is protected by the ADA.


I don't think that is how it works.

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Re: Disciplinary Action in Law School--C&F?

Postby mmelittlechicken » Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:40 pm

Honeysuckle wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:u got sorta violent twice, it isn't discrimination it is common sense.


It was not being adequately addressed at the time the misconduct occurred. Now I am under intensive treatment to address the underlying cause (bipolar disorder) of the disruptive behaviors. I see a psychiatrist once a month, a psychotherapist once a week and a bipolar support group once a week. I am doing everything I can to rehabilitate myself. If my treatment providers assert that I am mentally well enough to resume my studies and don't present a danger to myself or others, and the school still decides not to readmit me, that's discrimination. Bipolar disorder is protected by the ADA.

No it's not. Schools don't have to take a chance on someone with a history of violence.

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Re: Disciplinary Action in Law School--C&F?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Mar 26, 2015 4:33 pm

mmelittlechicken wrote:
Honeysuckle wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:u got sorta violent twice, it isn't discrimination it is common sense.


It was not being adequately addressed at the time the misconduct occurred. Now I am under intensive treatment to address the underlying cause (bipolar disorder) of the disruptive behaviors. I see a psychiatrist once a month, a psychotherapist once a week and a bipolar support group once a week. I am doing everything I can to rehabilitate myself. If my treatment providers assert that I am mentally well enough to resume my studies and don't present a danger to myself or others, and the school still decides not to readmit me, that's discrimination. Bipolar disorder is protected by the ADA.

No it's not. Schools don't have to take a chance on someone with a history of violence.


I wasn't violent. I physically hurt no one. Just hurt people's feelings.

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Re: Disciplinary Action in Law School--C&F?

Postby Honeysuckle » Thu Mar 26, 2015 4:35 pm

https://thelawofficeofkarenbower.files. ... llege1.pdf

^ this student legitimately had a history of violence (suspended after assaulting a staff member). the department of education office of civil rights determined that she was discriminated against because she was not readmitted after a mental health leave of absence.

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Re: Disciplinary Action in Law School--C&F?

Postby catinthewall » Thu Mar 26, 2015 4:49 pm

In reading some cases, it looks like one of the issues is whether the school knew about the diagnosis prior to suspending the student. See, e.g., Rosenthal v. Webster Univ., No. 98-2958, 2000 WL 1371117 (8th Cir. Sept. 25, 2000) (unpublished).

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Re: Disciplinary Action in Law School--C&F?

Postby Honeysuckle » Thu Mar 26, 2015 4:55 pm

catinthewall wrote:In reading some cases, it looks like one of the issues is whether the school knew about the diagnosis prior to suspending the student. See, e.g., Rosenthal v. Webster Univ., No. 98-2958, 2000 WL 1371117 (8th Cir. Sept. 25, 2000) (unpublished).


The school is now apprised of my diagnosis. I had my psychotherapist send a positive mental health evaluation to the school which stated that I have bipolar II.

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Re: Disciplinary Action in Law School--C&F?

Postby AReasonableMan » Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:28 pm

To provide some more context, the same post has been made on JD underground and these posts have been consistent over many months. Some feel that OP is merely trying to get confirmation that their school is wrong, and gets upset if this confirmation is not provided.

The evidence the school is wrong is (feel free to correct me OP, if I'm wrong or minimizing in any way):

1.) Even if OP violated rules, they're not responsible because they have bipolar and the rule violations were the disease. They're one and the same.

2.) Once OP's psychologist says they're no longer a threat to themselves or others this means they're not a threat. The risk of repeat behavior shouldn't be considered because schools admit DWI criminals all the time, and these criminals can harm others as well by driving into the school while drunk.

3.) The psychologist and support group who are "horrified by the school's actions".

To preclude this from going on for a dozen pages I suggest we all just give OP confirmation:

Your law school discriminated against you, and is wrong. The dean found out you had bipolar, and was out to get you. He's a horrible man, and should be tried in Geneva for human rights abuses. You didn't ask to have this illness, and are a victim. We all support you in your quest.

As for hiring a disability lawyer my advice remains the same:

Nothing from the dean's conduct suggests he won't readmit you next year. He just asked you to stop pestering his office for records, and seems to be interpreting this request as a passive-aggressive way of getting back in sooner when the agreement was you'd be out for a year. You do have a right to view your records. He has a right to make sure the law school is safe. It presents an interesting issue.

Do you need your records now? Why not focus on other things, and try to rebuild your relationship when you're in a cooler state. The answers of random people on the internet won't empower you. You can only empower yourself.

Again, you can't do obsessive behaviors and hide behind the bipolar label. You may have obsessive thoughts, but if you can't learn to control yourself you're going to have repeats of this conduct, won't pass c&f and won't move forward with your life. The bottom line is: you're either responsible for your behavior/if you can't control your behavior then your bipolar legitimately makes you unable to practice. It sucks, but you're in a catch-22.

I would say the story of the person who accepts responsibility and believes they can control their conduct with enough work and support, and truly feels guilt over their misconduct is a much more sympathetic person. This is a person others want to see succeed. The My Left Foot hero versus the crying on the bed, "F the world I can't walk, not my fault".

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Re: Disciplinary Action in Law School--C&F?

Postby Desert Fox » Thu Mar 26, 2015 7:33 pm

Honestly, I'd try to strike a deal with the school that says you won't come back on campus and will do your third year at the local school. Sounds win win. School doesn't have you threatening people and you get to graduate.

Also OP that administrative action you posted isn't really on point. That person had a condition put on that person for return violated the ADA. The school essentially said she didn't meet the condition because she might be violent because of her disability. You don't have such condition for return. You withdrew from the school? Do you have to reapply or is it automatic? If you have to reapply, I think you are fucked. Nowhere does that case say that you can't consider the persons violent past. The only reason that the school in the case couldn't was because they already gave a conditional admittance.

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Re: Disciplinary Action in Law School--C&F?

Postby Desert Fox » Thu Mar 26, 2015 7:51 pm

• Ascani v. Hofstra University, 173 F.3d 843 (2nd Cir. 1999) (unpublished opinion) (upholding dismissal of student who threatened professor, even if behavior was caused by her mental impairment; student is not otherwise qualified as she posed direct threat)

• Stearns v. Board of Educ. for Warren Tp. High School Dist. #121, WL 1044832, 16 NDLR ¶ 266 (N.D. Ill. 1999) (school district did not violate the ADA or Section 504 by dismissing student from playing basketball for violating district’s universal restrictions on alcohol-related offenses, even if student is an alcoholic; waiver of conduct code is unreasonable as a matter of law)

• Alamance Community College (NC), 32 NDLR 48, Case No. 11-05-2024 (OCR 2005) (college did not discriminate by suspending student for one year after choking his aide)

• Northwestern Business College (IL), 31 NDLR 252, Case No. 05-04-2108 (OCR 2005) (rejecting student’s assertion that had college honored his request for leave to address his post-traumatic stress disorder he would not have engaged in the conduct that led to his suspension; student was not diagnosed with condition until after his suspension)

• Gonzaga University (WA), Case No. 10-03-2041, 27 NDLR ¶ 286 (OCR Region X 2003) (even if student’s threatening behavior was related to her psychological disability, law school permitted to impose indefinite suspension)

• Morehouse College of Medicine (GA), Case No. 04-98-2151, 17 NDLR ¶ 94 (OCR Region IV 1999) (medical school did not violate § 504 by dismissing student with bipolar disorder for misconduct inconsistent with school's technical standards)

• Troy State University (CA), Case No. 04-96-2043 (OCR Region IV 1997) (upholding ban against student accessing building due to inappropriate conduct with staff member)

• Dixie College (UT), Case No. 08-95-2111, 8 NDLR ¶ 31 (OCR Region VIII 1995) (college lawfully dismissed student who stalked and harassed professor)

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Re: Disciplinary Action in Law School--C&F?

Postby Cicero76 » Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:49 pm

DF what code did u bill that research under

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Desert Fox
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Re: Disciplinary Action in Law School--C&F?

Postby Desert Fox » Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:55 pm

Cicero76 wrote:DF what code did u bill that research under

business development

OP I will rep you for 475 dollars an hour oktynx

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Re: Disciplinary Action in Law School--C&F?

Postby Honeysuckle » Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:13 am

Desert Fox wrote:Honestly, I'd try to strike a deal with the school that says you won't come back on campus and will do your third year at the local school. Sounds win win. School doesn't have you threatening people and you get to graduate.

Also OP that administrative action you posted isn't really on point. That person had a condition put on that person for return violated the ADA. The school essentially said she didn't meet the condition because she might be violent because of her disability. You don't have such condition for return. You withdrew from the school? Do you have to reapply or is it automatic? If you have to reapply, I think you are fucked. Nowhere does that case say that you can't consider the persons violent past. The only reason that the school in the case couldn't was because they already gave a conditional admittance.


I don't know why the school is making things more difficult than they are. I am not trying to get into the original school. I want to strike a deal with the original school saying that I will transfer to a local school and complete my 3L year there so I can receive treatment. If I were forced to go back to my original school, my treatment for bipolar disorder would be interrupted. I don't even want to go back to the original school after all that has happened. I just want permission to transfer.

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Honeysuckle
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Re: Disciplinary Action in Law School--C&F?

Postby Honeysuckle » Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:15 am

Anonymous User wrote:To provide some more context, the same post has been made on JD underground and these posts have been consistent over many months. Some feel that OP is merely trying to get confirmation that their school is wrong, and gets upset if this confirmation is not provided.

The evidence the school is wrong is (feel free to correct me OP, if I'm wrong or minimizing in any way):

1.) Even if OP violated rules, they're not responsible because they have bipolar and the rule violations were the disease. They're one and the same.

2.) Once OP's psychologist says they're no longer a threat to themselves or others this means they're not a threat. The risk of repeat behavior shouldn't be considered because schools admit DWI criminals all the time, and these criminals can harm others as well by driving into the school while drunk.

3.) The psychologist and support group who are "horrified by the school's actions".

To preclude this from going on for a dozen pages I suggest we all just give OP confirmation:

Your law school discriminated against you, and is wrong. The dean found out you had bipolar, and was out to get you. He's a horrible man, and should be tried in Geneva for human rights abuses. You didn't ask to have this illness, and are a victim. We all support you in your quest.

As for hiring a disability lawyer my advice remains the same:

Nothing from the dean's conduct suggests he won't readmit you next year. He just asked you to stop pestering his office for records, and seems to be interpreting this request as a passive-aggressive way of getting back in sooner when the agreement was you'd be out for a year. You do have a right to view your records. He has a right to make sure the law school is safe. It presents an interesting issue.

Do you need your records now? Why not focus on other things, and try to rebuild your relationship when you're in a cooler state. The answers of random people on the internet won't empower you. You can only empower yourself.

Again, you can't do obsessive behaviors and hide behind the bipolar label. You may have obsessive thoughts, but if you can't learn to control yourself you're going to have repeats of this conduct, won't pass c&f and won't move forward with your life. The bottom line is: you're either responsible for your behavior/if you can't control your behavior then your bipolar legitimately makes you unable to practice. It sucks, but you're in a catch-22.

I would say the story of the person who accepts responsibility and believes they can control their conduct with enough work and support, and truly feels guilt over their misconduct is a much more sympathetic person. This is a person others want to see succeed. The My Left Foot hero versus the crying on the bed, "F the world I can't walk, not my fault".


brave use of anon.

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Honeysuckle
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Re: Disciplinary Action in Law School--C&F?

Postby Honeysuckle » Fri Mar 27, 2015 10:54 am

Desert Fox wrote:• Ascani v. Hofstra University, 173 F.3d 843 (2nd Cir. 1999) (unpublished opinion) (upholding dismissal of student who threatened professor, even if behavior was caused by her mental impairment; student is not otherwise qualified as she posed direct threat)

• Stearns v. Board of Educ. for Warren Tp. High School Dist. #121, WL 1044832, 16 NDLR ¶ 266 (N.D. Ill. 1999) (school district did not violate the ADA or Section 504 by dismissing student from playing basketball for violating district’s universal restrictions on alcohol-related offenses, even if student is an alcoholic; waiver of conduct code is unreasonable as a matter of law)

• Alamance Community College (NC), 32 NDLR 48, Case No. 11-05-2024 (OCR 2005) (college did not discriminate by suspending student for one year after choking his aide)

• Northwestern Business College (IL), 31 NDLR 252, Case No. 05-04-2108 (OCR 2005) (rejecting student’s assertion that had college honored his request for leave to address his post-traumatic stress disorder he would not have engaged in the conduct that led to his suspension; student was not diagnosed with condition until after his suspension)

• Gonzaga University (WA), Case No. 10-03-2041, 27 NDLR ¶ 286 (OCR Region X 2003) (even if student’s threatening behavior was related to her psychological disability, law school permitted to impose indefinite suspension)

• Morehouse College of Medicine (GA), Case No. 04-98-2151, 17 NDLR ¶ 94 (OCR Region IV 1999) (medical school did not violate § 504 by dismissing student with bipolar disorder for misconduct inconsistent with school's technical standards)

• Troy State University (CA), Case No. 04-96-2043 (OCR Region IV 1997) (upholding ban against student accessing building due to inappropriate conduct with staff member)

• Dixie College (UT), Case No. 08-95-2111, 8 NDLR ¶ 31 (OCR Region VIII 1995) (college lawfully dismissed student who stalked and harassed professor)


The key fact distinguishing my case from the ones you cited is that I was not disciplined last fall. I was given no sanction. I was given the opportunity to complete a medical withdrawal. The school, by giving me this option, recognized that my behaviors were the result of a mental health disorder and gave me the opportunity to get my shit together before re-enrolling.




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