Sharing office as a NYC associate - always same gender?

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rpupkin
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Re: Sharing office as a NYC associate - always same gender?

Postby rpupkin » Tue Sep 01, 2015 6:29 pm

hdunlop wrote:I think the fear is less of sharing an office and more of sharing every waking hour of the day with them when you rarely see your spouse and when you do you have ED because all you can think about is stupid work or whatever

maybe not a problem for the new soviet person but for weaklings like me it's a concern

Good luck with all that, bro. Also, this "soviet" fixation is a nice touch. I'm reading your posts in the voice of Sterling Hayden's great General Ripper character from Doctor Strangelove.

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rpupkin
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Re: Sharing office as a NYC associate - always same gender?

Postby rpupkin » Tue Sep 01, 2015 6:31 pm

graphia wrote:
rpupkin wrote:In any event, I do think the racist wife scenario is analogous to what we're talking about. As I tried to explain upthread, we're not just talking about the quirky preference of a spouse. We're talking about a preference that is grounded in backwards views about what it means for women to work in a professional environment. The conception of women as irresistible sex objects is a form of gender discrimination--at least it is when it's imposed on the workplace.

The response to that point in this thread seems to be along the lines of: "We sometimes need to respect the irrational preferences of our spouses." Well, ok. But that seems to me a lot like the racist wife scenario. When your quirky preferences translate into harmful views about the role of underrepresented groups in the workplace, I don't have much sympathy for the "I gotta respect the marriage" fallback position.


I understand where you're coming from. Just to sidestep the (very real) issue of women being marginalized in the workplace/society at large, let's reverse the genders here. If it were a female associate, and her husband was worried about infidelity, would your answer change? Or let's remove gender further, what about a homosexual, male associate?

My answer would not change in either scenario.

hdunlop
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Re: Sharing office as a NYC associate - always same gender?

Postby hdunlop » Tue Sep 01, 2015 6:34 pm

rpupkin wrote:
hdunlop wrote:I think the fear is less of sharing an office and more of sharing every waking hour of the day with them when you rarely see your spouse and when you do you have ED because all you can think about is stupid work or whatever

maybe not a problem for the new soviet person but for weaklings like me it's a concern

Good luck with all that, bro. Also, this "soviet" fixation is a nice touch. I'm reading your posts in the voice of Sterling Hayden's great General Ripper character from Doctor Strangelove.


tyty i thought it was a good reference too

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: Sharing office as a NYC associate - always same gender?

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Tue Sep 01, 2015 6:39 pm

This is batshit.

Are you people seriously suggesting that law firms should only pair same-sex office mates in order to reduce the odds of them having an affair? Or even better, to placate overly protective spouses? Like, ok, the concern trolling about WHAT IF YOUR SPOUSE WAS CHEATED ON AND YOU HAVE TO COMPROMISE IN A RELATIONSHIP is bad enough, but so what, you expect businesses to cater to your personal concerns of marital infidelity?

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jbagelboy
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Re: Sharing office as a NYC associate - always same gender?

Postby jbagelboy » Tue Sep 01, 2015 6:39 pm

WestOfTheRest wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:If you were married to a serial cheater I'm sure you do have trust issues, but controlling who your spouse works with isn't really the solution. I get that a spouse might have those concerns, and that the couple might have to work that out, but I don't think that should actually affect someone's workplace.
WestOfTheRest wrote:Proximity + Opportunity = Temptation

Give good people enough opportunity to do questionable things for temporary pleasure and you'll be surprised how often they will. This is amplified in a stressful environment where emotions can run high and sleep can, at times, be sparse. I'm constantly surprised at how much trust people place in others.

You sound like you will be a wonderful spouse.

And personally, I don't care about the gender/sexual orientation - it doesn't make the slightest difference. No partner should be worried about their partner cheating because they share an office with someone of the gender they're attracted to, and if they are, that's on the relationship, not sharing an office.

Doesn't really matter what kind of spouse I am/will be.

Coming from someone who has dealt with an SO (who wasn't a serial cheater by any stretch of the imagination) who spent 12+ hours a day working with someone of the opposite sex for several years, I know where it can end up. To marginalize other peoples' concerns about these arrangements is excessively close minded.

Personally, I could give two shits who my spouse works with, but after having an SO of 9 years leave me for the guy she worked with, I'm not stupid enough to sit here and lecture other people about how it's not a concern.


Frankly, this is ridiculous. I'm sorry for your past relationship falling apart, that sounds really shitty. But this is a diverse workplace. You can't just block out the opposite gender. If this kind of thing is going to happen, it's going to happen whether or not you have a male or female officemate for 9 months as a junior associate. To remove all threat of infidelity, can men not work with women on a deal team, pulling all nighters together preparing documents? Can they not go to trial together, and spend eight weeks in hotel rooms next to each other? Should we have separate office buildings for men and women? Or have single-gender firms? The logic with this concern about shared offices is excruciatingly bad and it leads to ridiculous outcomes. And the firms I've seen that have summers and first year associates share offices with different genders, even married ones, the thought of someone raising a stink about it.. just so weird.

Of course, we all do weird shit and make sacrifices for those important to us. So sure, if your spouse wants you working with another dude or chick -- or your same-sex spouse wants you working with the opposite sex -- and you deem that worthy of your time and energy, go ahead and ask for it. But don't think it's normal or advisable, or that your employer has to give a shit.

071816
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Re: Sharing office as a NYC associate - always same gender?

Postby 071816 » Tue Sep 01, 2015 6:47 pm

junior associate to partner: "don't staff me on any deals with chicks because my girl is paranoid that I might end up fuckin em or something"

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Capitol_Idea
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Re: Sharing office as a NYC associate - always same gender?

Postby Capitol_Idea » Tue Sep 01, 2015 6:53 pm

chimp wrote:junior associate to partner: "don't staff me on any deals with chicks because my girl is paranoid that I might end up fuckin em or something"

(is immediately given a stiff bourbon and put on partner track by boomer partner)

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ExBiglawAssociate
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Re: Sharing office as a NYC associate - always same gender?

Postby ExBiglawAssociate » Tue Sep 01, 2015 6:54 pm

Capitol_Idea wrote:Why does this matter? Are you planning on taking your pants off in the office? Either way, it's still considered poor form.


Because she doesn't want a skinny-fat biglaw dweeb ogling at her all day?

WestOfTheRest
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Re: Sharing office as a NYC associate - always same gender?

Postby WestOfTheRest » Tue Sep 01, 2015 6:57 pm

The slippery slope argument is kind of ridiculous here. Having feelings of apprehension towards your spouse spending 10+ hours a day, in a private/semi-private office with someone of the opposite sex for a period of possibly 2+ years, is not the same as working with someone on a deal. It's also not the same as working in the same office building as someone. If we want to go that far, what's the big difference between having a member of the opposite sex as your officemate and having to share a hotel room with someone of the opposite sex when you go on a business trip? It's really not that much different, but everyone in here is willing to play that line drawing exercise.

Listen, I could care less about having a member of the opposite sex as my officemate. Same goes for my current SO, I don't care who works with her. I also wouldn't suggest putting force a sex based preference. But I do think it's ridiculous that people in here are willing to offhandedly dismiss this guys concerns on one hand, and then make their own BS judgments about what's acceptable on the other.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Sharing office as a NYC associate - always same gender?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Sep 01, 2015 7:03 pm

I mean, it's a "private" office at work, in biglaw, not a boudoir. It's a public professional space.

I still think that if someone is going to leave a relationship for someone they work with, the relationship has problems to begin with, and would end via some other mechanism. And I think people who are worried about their SO working with someone of the opposite sex need to think about what assumptions underlie that belief. But as jbagel said, if it's that big a deal, do what you need to do.

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Re: Sharing office as a NYC associate - always same gender?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 01, 2015 7:10 pm

Earlier anon here.

Y'all are sad and kind of funny. Pupkin is spouting all this irrelevant false equivalence bullshit about racism and the origins of gender inequality, dixiecup is calling me a retrograde weirdo, and we have bagelboy talking about single-gender firms. Because, you know, I had the crazy idea that my spouse might be uncomfortable with me having a female officemate with whom I will spend inordinately more time than I spend with my wife.

At the end of the day, I love my wife a lot more than my career. I honestly don't even know if my wife will have an issue with this (but if she does, I'll be sure we seek counseling right away, thanks for the diagnosis TLS). If she does, and if my firm looks at this issue the way some of you all do, maybe they would fire me. It's fine, I will work at another firm, and life will go on. Done... You all need to find better things to do with your time.

How about this... I think some of you have problems with an inclusive workplace. I'm just a guy trying to do right by his wife, and you apparently think I should be compared to racists and everything. Seriously? Do you think that's right? I emphatically do not have a problem working with women, even "working closely," and have been very successful working with all people. But I do think there is a difference between all your bullshit examples about working together, versus sharing an office all day, every day. That's just me. Maybe you are different. I think there are plenty of people who would agree with me. Not everyone, but some people. You want to alienate and judge those people because they think differently than you on this issue. NOBODY is talking about excluding women or workplace inequality or any of that other bullshit. TBF, same sex officemates could actually encourage proportional hiring between males and females.

Anyway, had to get that off my chest. Don't mean to be too rude, I do appreciate what you are saying, if for no other reason than to warn me that there are people that feel very, very strongly about the same sex office mate idea.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Sharing office as a NYC associate - always same gender?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Sep 01, 2015 7:14 pm

Do you really think your wife might care that you work closely with a woman as opposed to a man? Do you actually think she's concerned that you might cheat on her? That wouldn't bother you?

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ExBiglawAssociate
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Re: Sharing office as a NYC associate - always same gender?

Postby ExBiglawAssociate » Tue Sep 01, 2015 7:17 pm

If you have a self-obsessed, prima donna spouse who works out all the time to look good for coworkers, maybe you have a problem. But if you're like the vast majority of biglaw attorneys I know, you're not going to be attractive enough to really "tempt" anyone.

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Re: Sharing office as a NYC associate - always same gender?

Postby 071816 » Tue Sep 01, 2015 7:17 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Earlier anon here.

Y'all are sad and kind of funny. Pupkin is spouting all this irrelevant false equivalence bullshit about racism and the origins of gender inequality, dixiecup is calling me a retrograde weirdo, and we have bagelboy talking about single-gender firms. Because, you know, I had the crazy idea that my spouse might be uncomfortable with me having a female officemate with whom I will spend inordinately more time than I spend with my wife.

At the end of the day, I love my wife a lot more than my career. I honestly don't even know if my wife will have an issue with this (but if she does, I'll be sure we seek counseling right away, thanks for the diagnosis TLS). If she does, and if my firm looks at this issue the way some of you all do, maybe they would fire me. It's fine, I will work at another firm, and life will go on. Done... You all need to find better things to do with your time.

How about this... I think some of you have problems with an inclusive workplace. I'm just a guy trying to do right by his wife, and you apparently think I should be compared to racists and everything. Seriously? Do you think that's right? I emphatically do not have a problem working with women, even "working closely," and have been very successful working with all people. But I do think there is a difference between all your bullshit examples about working together, versus sharing an office all day, every day. That's just me. Maybe you are different. I think there are plenty of people who would agree with me. Not everyone, but some people. You want to alienate and judge those people because they think differently than you on this issue. NOBODY is talking about excluding women or workplace inequality or any of that other bullshit. TBF, same sex officemates could actually encourage proportional hiring between males and females.

Anyway, had to get that off my chest. Don't mean to be too rude, I do appreciate what you are saying, if for no other reason than to warn me that there are people that feel very, very strongly about the same sex office mate idea.

SEEK ASSISTANCE POST HASTE

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: Sharing office as a NYC associate - always same gender?

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Tue Sep 01, 2015 7:23 pm

Do right by your wife by not giving her reason to fear you'll cheat on her with any female human who you spend a lot of time with. Sorry you're so mad but I think the automatic conflation of sharing an office with anything remotely sexual is fucking obnoxious and not an attitude that belongs in a modern workplace.

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Re: Sharing office as a NYC associate - always same gender?

Postby rpupkin » Tue Sep 01, 2015 7:25 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Earlier anon here.

Y'all are sad and kind of funny. Pupkin is spouting all this irrelevant false equivalence bullshit about racism and the origins of gender inequality,

I've explained why I think it's relevant. Why don't you explain why it's "irrelevant false equivalence bullshit"? And seeing as how you've now taken to casually insulting others, perhaps it's time for your cloak of anonymity to end.

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Re: Sharing office as a NYC associate - always same gender?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 01, 2015 7:57 pm

My firm matches genders.

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smaug
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Re: Sharing office as a NYC associate - always same gender?

Postby smaug » Tue Sep 01, 2015 8:06 pm

rpupkin wrote:
hdunlop wrote:I think the fear is less of sharing an office and more of sharing every waking hour of the day with them when you rarely see your spouse and when you do you have ED because all you can think about is stupid work or whatever

maybe not a problem for the new soviet person but for weaklings like me it's a concern

Good luck with all that, bro. Also, this "soviet" fixation is a nice touch. I'm reading your posts in the voice of Sterling Hayden's great General Ripper character from Doctor Strangelove.


me too thanks

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star fox
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Re: Sharing office as a NYC associate - always same gender?

Postby star fox » Tue Sep 01, 2015 8:08 pm

Not matching genders is weird.

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FSK
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Re: Sharing office as a NYC associate - always same gender?

Postby FSK » Tue Sep 01, 2015 8:15 pm

I was going to try to add productively to this thread but I'm still stuck on snail trails.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Sharing office as a NYC associate - always same gender?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:16 pm

star fox wrote:Not matching genders is weird.

why?

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ForgotMyPassword
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Re: Sharing office as a NYC associate - always same gender?

Postby ForgotMyPassword » Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:40 pm

Anonymous User wrote:How about this... I think some of you have problems with an inclusive workplace. I'm just a guy trying to do right by his wife, and you apparently think I should be compared to racists and everything. Seriously? Do you think that's right? I emphatically do not have a problem working with women, even "working closely," and have been very successful working with all people. But I do think there is a difference between all your bullshit examples about working together, versus sharing an office all day, every day. That's just me. Maybe you are different. I think there are plenty of people who would agree with me. Not everyone, but some people. You want to alienate and judge those people because they think differently than you on this issue. NOBODY is talking about excluding women or workplace inequality or any of that other bullshit. TBF, same sex officemates could actually encourage proportional hiring between males and females.

I disagree with you on this issue, but that doesn't mean I'm going to attack your character so as to shield myself from the possibility that a reasonable person may have a different opinion than me. The response you've generated is characteristic of the social orthodoxy being pushed by sjw's, ostracization under the guise of inclusion.

Take comfort in the fact that this is still mostly contained to the internet.

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rpupkin
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Re: Sharing office as a NYC associate - always same gender?

Postby rpupkin » Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:49 pm

ForgotMyPassword wrote:I disagree with you on this issue, but that doesn't mean I'm going to attack your character so as to shield myself from the possibility that a reasonable person may have a different opinion than me. The response you've generated is characteristic of the social orthodoxy being pushed by sjw's, ostracization under the guise of inclusion.

Who attacked the poster's character? And how was anyone prevented from expressing an opinion? Also, what is the "social orthodoxy" being pushed here?




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