110 hour week

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BiglawAssociate
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Re: 110 hour week

Postby BiglawAssociate » Tue Apr 07, 2015 10:10 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Isn't it the case that there are in-house positions that pay ~500k all in after a few years? I'm thinking of large banks/certain f500s? Would you all say that those positions are the balance between work/life and money?


LOL no. I'm not sure where you heard that. There are a number of in house positions that pay between 150 to 250k in NYC and other cities, but hours (although better than biglaw) are not 9 to 5. Some places like Amazon work you harder than biglaw. I know a few people who left in house to go back to biglaw because the hours were worse in house.

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Re: 110 hour week

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Apr 07, 2015 10:37 pm

BiglawAssociate wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Isn't it the case that there are in-house positions that pay ~500k all in after a few years? I'm thinking of large banks/certain f500s? Would you all say that those positions are the balance between work/life and money?


LOL no. I'm not sure where you heard that. There are a number of in house positions that pay between 150 to 250k in NYC and other cities, but hours (although better than biglaw) are not 9 to 5. Some places like Amazon work you harder than biglaw. I know a few people who left in house to go back to biglaw because the hours were worse in house.

Yeah, this is about right. I work with a few clients whose GCs make more than 400k, but they're also working/traveling literally nonstop. I don't think I would work as much as they do even for that kind of money, it seems miserable.

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rpupkin
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Re: 110 hour week

Postby rpupkin » Tue Apr 07, 2015 10:40 pm

BiglawAssociate wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Isn't it the case that there are in-house positions that pay ~500k all in after a few years? I'm thinking of large banks/certain f500s? Would you all say that those positions are the balance between work/life and money?


LOL no. I'm not sure where you heard that. There are a number of in house positions that pay between 150 to 250k in NYC and other cities, but hours (although better than biglaw) are not 9 to 5. Some places like Amazon work you harder than biglaw. I know a few people who left in house to go back to biglaw because the hours were worse in house.

I can't say I know a few such people, but I personally know one. And I know a couple of others who are thinking about trying to get out of their sweatshop in-house jobs. I think many TLS'ers have a heavily fictionalized perception of the realities of an in-house lawyer. Some of those positions suck.

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Re: 110 hour week

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Apr 07, 2015 11:07 pm

^^^

I think we have a tendency to view in-house jobs as the "light at the end of the tunnel" since biglaw life is so poor. We just assume the grass will get greener once we get a few years experience and can make the in-house flip. But I'm starting to think thats not really the case as often as we may like to think. The bottom line is that you damn well better love your practice area/substantive area of expertise, because practice itself doesn't appear to get any less stressful or any easier as you move along.

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Re: 110 hour week

Postby smallfirmassociate » Wed Apr 08, 2015 12:02 am

Well, the "bottom line" is that jobs that pay $200k+ but don't expect a hell of a lot of work are unicorn jobs.

You can own a company, you can have lucky investments, you can find a needle in a haystack, but this is Economics 101: There are a lot of talented people who are willing to work 60 hours a week for $200k salary. That means you, as a lawyer, all all but certainly fungible. This applies to almost every non-lawyer job, too, where a person doesn't have an ownership interest in the company.

Any light at the end of the tunnel is just agreeing to work fewer hours and provide a modicum of expertise for less pay. That's the shitty thing about the light. It's not actually any brighter as you get close. It's more like you're climbing up a mountain toward a light as people behind you yell at you and whip you, and as you get close, the light (pay) gets dimmer, but in turn the people with whips allow you to climb slower with fewer lashings.

You eventually kind of half-ass climb your way to the top, your family and friends long since deserted, and lie not victorious but pathetic, old, drunk, and fading away on your death bed with fleeting thoughts of all the fun shit that the dude from high school who was a pretty good welder in tenth grade did in his life.

Anonymous User wrote:^^^

I think we have a tendency to view in-house jobs as the "light at the end of the tunnel" since biglaw life is so poor. We just assume the grass will get greener once we get a few years experience and can make the in-house flip. But I'm starting to think thats not really the case as often as we may like to think. The bottom line is that you damn well better love your practice area/substantive area of expertise, because practice itself doesn't appear to get any less stressful or any easier as you move along.

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Danger Zone
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Re: 110 hour week

Postby Danger Zone » Wed Apr 08, 2015 6:54 am

Jesus dude

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FSK
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Re: 110 hour week

Postby FSK » Wed Apr 08, 2015 7:03 am

So TCR is get equity in a seed stage startup. Combine ownership with slave labor. Got it.

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Re: 110 hour week

Postby lawschoolftw » Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:05 am

smallfirmassociate wrote:Well, the "bottom line" is that jobs that pay $200k+ but don't expect a hell of a lot of work are unicorn jobs.

You can own a company, you can have lucky investments, you can find a needle in a haystack, but this is Economics 101: There are a lot of talented people who are willing to work 60 hours a week for $200k salary. That means you, as a lawyer, all all but certainly fungible. This applies to almost every non-lawyer job, too, where a person doesn't have an ownership interest in the company.

Any light at the end of the tunnel is just agreeing to work fewer hours and provide a modicum of expertise for less pay. That's the shitty thing about the light. It's not actually any brighter as you get close. It's more like you're climbing up a mountain toward a light as people behind you yell at you and whip you, and as you get close, the light (pay) gets dimmer, but in turn the people with whips allow you to climb slower with fewer lashings.

You eventually kind of half-ass climb your way to the top, your family and friends long since deserted, and lie not victorious but pathetic, old, drunk, and fading away on your death bed with fleeting thoughts of all the fun shit that the dude from high school who was a pretty good welder in tenth grade did in his life.

Anonymous User wrote:^^^

I think we have a tendency to view in-house jobs as the "light at the end of the tunnel" since biglaw life is so poor. We just assume the grass will get greener once we get a few years experience and can make the in-house flip. But I'm starting to think thats not really the case as often as we may like to think. The bottom line is that you damn well better love your practice area/substantive area of expertise, because practice itself doesn't appear to get any less stressful or any easier as you move along.


There have been a number of times people have said this on this thread, but this may be the most depressing thing I have ever seen on TLS.

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DELG
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Re: 110 hour week

Postby DELG » Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:10 am

i dunno. both my husband and i are at firms. we don't see each other or our kid enough but at the end of the day we all still love each other and enjoy the time we do have.

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Re: 110 hour week

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:56 am

DELG wrote:i dunno. both my husband and i are at firms. we don't see each other or our kid enough but at the end of the day we all still love each other and enjoy the time we do have.


And thats precisely the reason I want to find some more balance, even if it means resigning myself to a far lower standard of living than what biglaw would provide. Its precisely because there are people I love that I don't see enough. Of course I enjoy the time we spend together, and of course I love them to death. And thats exactly why I couldn't live with not seeing them enough.

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Re: 110 hour week

Postby JohannDeMann » Wed Apr 08, 2015 12:06 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
DELG wrote:i dunno. both my husband and i are at firms. we don't see each other or our kid enough but at the end of the day we all still love each other and enjoy the time we do have.


And thats precisely the reason I want to find some more balance, even if it means resigning myself to a far lower standard of living than what biglaw would provide. Its precisely because there are people I love that I don't see enough. Of course I enjoy the time we spend together, and of course I love them to death. And thats exactly why I couldn't live with not seeing them enough.


Also, working biglaw with a spouse that works biglaw is a lot easier because they understand. Your kid is too young to know the difference between nanny and mommy or really appreciate the difference at this time. The point your making is easy to make as an under 30 year old, but a career in biglaw will stress the hell out of this situation becuase your 6 year old kid will not understand why you miss little league or dance recitals, broken promises, why you don't cook meals for them etc. Your 18 year old will wonder why their parents with millions in the bank work instead of watching a show with them. There's a reason why partners have divorced 2+ times by the age of 55. And considering the biggest stressor in most relationships is financial concerns, which this doesn't fit in - you better believe it wrecks the hell out of a home life.

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Re: 110 hour week

Postby DELG » Wed Apr 08, 2015 12:49 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
DELG wrote:i dunno. both my husband and i are at firms. we don't see each other or our kid enough but at the end of the day we all still love each other and enjoy the time we do have.


And thats precisely the reason I want to find some more balance, even if it means resigning myself to a far lower standard of living than what biglaw would provide. Its precisely because there are people I love that I don't see enough. Of course I enjoy the time we spend together, and of course I love them to death. And thats exactly why I couldn't live with not seeing them enough.

I mean... I am like 3 hours a week away from totally chill with it. Just me.

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Re: 110 hour week

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Apr 08, 2015 1:46 pm

DELG wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
DELG wrote:i dunno. both my husband and i are at firms. we don't see each other or our kid enough but at the end of the day we all still love each other and enjoy the time we do have.


And thats precisely the reason I want to find some more balance, even if it means resigning myself to a far lower standard of living than what biglaw would provide. Its precisely because there are people I love that I don't see enough. Of course I enjoy the time we spend together, and of course I love them to death. And thats exactly why I couldn't live with not seeing them enough.

I mean... I am like 3 hours a week away from totally chill with it. Just me.


My situation is different in that my wife works "normal person hours". Its good since she has time to unwind and relax, have an evening, take care of our kid, etc. But it sucks since she has to do this all alone. I hate knowing that she is eating dinner alone yet again, going to sleep alone, etc. And I know the day will come when our kid hits some milestone moment(s) and I won't be there for it. And all of that is what hurts me so much. It would almost be easier if she were going through the same thing, and equally absent, but thats selfish of me to even think.

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Re: 110 hour week

Postby BiglawAssociate » Wed Apr 08, 2015 10:45 pm

It's not just about spending time with family, etc. It's about SPENDING TIME DOING OTHER SHIT BESIDES WORK. Unlike many lawyers, I actually have outside hobbies and interests and talents. LOL at some lawyers. I hear single coworkers say this shit all the time - "Oh well, what else would I be doing if I weren't working? Nothing." LOL if you can't even think of one thing to do besides work. WTF is wrong with you. This is probably why you are 35 and unmarried - you have no fucking personality.

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Re: 110 hour week

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Apr 08, 2015 10:51 pm

BiglawAssociate wrote:It's not just about spending time with family, etc. It's about SPENDING TIME DOING OTHER SHIT BESIDES WORK. Unlike many lawyers, I actually have outside hobbies and interests and talents. LOL at some lawyers. I hear single coworkers say this shit all the time - "Oh well, what else would I be doing if I weren't working? Nothing." LOL if you can't even think of one thing to do besides work. WTF is wrong with you. This is probably why you are 35 and unmarried - you have no fucking personality.


Agreed. Family is just the first thing that comes to mind. But having some more time for the gym, to watch my favorite sports teams, to go hiking, etc. would all be invaluable and allow me to feel like I'm actually living life to some extent, as opposed to needlessly wasting away my existence in my office from beginning of the day until late at night each night.

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Re: 110 hour week

Postby BarbellDreams » Wed Apr 08, 2015 10:53 pm

DELG wrote:i dunno. both my husband and i are at firms. we don't see each other or our kid enough but at the end of the day we all still love each other and enjoy the time we do have.


Everyone defines "enough" differently. I think I would be perfectly fine working 60 hours a week for the rest of my life if my salary was substantial and allowed my family to enjoy a good lifestyle. You pull n 8-7 Mon-Fri, do a half day on Sat and relax for the remainder of the weekend. Still get dinner at home, still spend some time with family, still have time for the gym and some activities, etc.. At 70+ hours I would GTFO if I had kids. Give me a 50% paycut if need be, I'm not dealing with a schedule where I leave before my wife wakes up and come home after she is fast asleep, let alone the kids.

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Re: 110 hour week

Postby El Pollito » Wed Apr 08, 2015 10:59 pm

BarbellDreams wrote:
DELG wrote:i dunno. both my husband and i are at firms. we don't see each other or our kid enough but at the end of the day we all still love each other and enjoy the time we do have.


Everyone defines "enough" differently. I think I would be perfectly fine working 60 hours a week for the rest of my life if my salary was substantial and allowed my family to enjoy a good lifestyle. You pull n 8-7 Mon-Fri, do a half day on Sat and relax for the remainder of the weekend. Still get dinner at home, still spend some time with family, still have time for the gym and some activities, etc.. At 70+ hours I would GTFO if I had kids. Give me a 50% paycut if need be, I'm not dealing with a schedule where I leave before my wife wakes up and come home after she is fast asleep, let alone the kids.

lol at controlling when those 60 hours occur

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Re: 110 hour week

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:04 pm

BarbellDreams wrote:
DELG wrote:i dunno. both my husband and i are at firms. we don't see each other or our kid enough but at the end of the day we all still love each other and enjoy the time we do have.


Everyone defines "enough" differently. I think I would be perfectly fine working 60 hours a week for the rest of my life if my salary was substantial and allowed my family to enjoy a good lifestyle. You pull n 8-7 Mon-Fri, do a half day on Sat and relax for the remainder of the weekend. Still get dinner at home, still spend some time with family, still have time for the gym and some activities, etc.. At 70+ hours I would GTFO if I had kids. Give me a 50% paycut if need be, I'm not dealing with a schedule where I leave before my wife wakes up and come home after she is fast asleep, let alone the kids.


I could take this as well, but its crazy to think that law works this way. We all know how emails come at 5:30 PM which ruin our nights, even if the day was slow, or how comments/edits come in at the worst times, even when you thought the project was done and finalized. Or how one thing can suddenly balloon up to the point where you are forced to be there later. Sure, if it all just ended for the day at 7, that would be incredible. But we all know that doesn't happen. At least not in biglaw.

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Re: 110 hour week

Postby BarbellDreams » Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:12 pm

El Pollito wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:
DELG wrote:i dunno. both my husband and i are at firms. we don't see each other or our kid enough but at the end of the day we all still love each other and enjoy the time we do have.


Everyone defines "enough" differently. I think I would be perfectly fine working 60 hours a week for the rest of my life if my salary was substantial and allowed my family to enjoy a good lifestyle. You pull n 8-7 Mon-Fri, do a half day on Sat and relax for the remainder of the weekend. Still get dinner at home, still spend some time with family, still have time for the gym and some activities, etc.. At 70+ hours I would GTFO if I had kids. Give me a 50% paycut if need be, I'm not dealing with a schedule where I leave before my wife wakes up and come home after she is fast asleep, let alone the kids.

lol at controlling when those 60 hours occur


Thats my point. Thats why, IMO, biglaw will never lead to a healthy and happy lifestyle. You can bill 40 hours in a week but it will end up needing something from 8 am to 10 am, then sitting around scrambling to find work from 10 am to 5 pm, and then getting bombarded with emails until 10 pm. On the billing sheet, which is all anyone (except you) cares about, it looks like you only worked like 9 hours that day. In your head that was the worst day ever. Unless you got extremely lucky with a practice group or office, this happens a lot from what I can tell. Its just not a normal lifestyle IMO and it doesn't lead to seeing my family "enough" per my own defintion of "enough".

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Re: 110 hour week

Postby BiglawAssociate » Thu Apr 09, 2015 12:02 am

BarbellDreams wrote:
El Pollito wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:
DELG wrote:i dunno. both my husband and i are at firms. we don't see each other or our kid enough but at the end of the day we all still love each other and enjoy the time we do have.


Everyone defines "enough" differently. I think I would be perfectly fine working 60 hours a week for the rest of my life if my salary was substantial and allowed my family to enjoy a good lifestyle. You pull n 8-7 Mon-Fri, do a half day on Sat and relax for the remainder of the weekend. Still get dinner at home, still spend some time with family, still have time for the gym and some activities, etc.. At 70+ hours I would GTFO if I had kids. Give me a 50% paycut if need be, I'm not dealing with a schedule where I leave before my wife wakes up and come home after she is fast asleep, let alone the kids.

lol at controlling when those 60 hours occur


Thats my point. Thats why, IMO, biglaw will never lead to a healthy and happy lifestyle. You can bill 40 hours in a week but it will end up needing something from 8 am to 10 am, then sitting around scrambling to find work from 10 am to 5 pm, and then getting bombarded with emails until 10 pm. On the billing sheet, which is all anyone (except you) cares about, it looks like you only worked like 9 hours that day. In your head that was the worst day ever. Unless you got extremely lucky with a practice group or office, this happens a lot from what I can tell. Its just not a normal lifestyle IMO and it doesn't lead to seeing my family "enough" per my own defintion of "enough".


If we're counting "work hours" like non-lawyers do, we probably work on average 12 to 18 hours a day....

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DELG
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Re: 110 hour week

Postby DELG » Thu Apr 09, 2015 7:22 am

BarbellDreams wrote:
DELG wrote:i dunno. both my husband and i are at firms. we don't see each other or our kid enough but at the end of the day we all still love each other and enjoy the time we do have.


Everyone defines "enough" differently. I think I would be perfectly fine working 60 hours a week for the rest of my life if my salary was substantial and allowed my family to enjoy a good lifestyle. You pull n 8-7 Mon-Fri, do a half day on Sat and relax for the remainder of the weekend. Still get dinner at home, still spend some time with family, still have time for the gym and some activities, etc.. At 70+ hours I would GTFO if I had kids. Give me a 50% paycut if need be, I'm not dealing with a schedule where I leave before my wife wakes up and come home after she is fast asleep, let alone the kids.

The thing that I hate about my schedule is that sometimes I leave before my kid is awake, then come home after she's asleep, then the same thing happens the next day. That's pretty intolerable, even if it happens rarely.

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Re: 110 hour week

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:05 am

DELG wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:
DELG wrote:i dunno. both my husband and i are at firms. we don't see each other or our kid enough but at the end of the day we all still love each other and enjoy the time we do have.


Everyone defines "enough" differently. I think I would be perfectly fine working 60 hours a week for the rest of my life if my salary was substantial and allowed my family to enjoy a good lifestyle. You pull n 8-7 Mon-Fri, do a half day on Sat and relax for the remainder of the weekend. Still get dinner at home, still spend some time with family, still have time for the gym and some activities, etc.. At 70+ hours I would GTFO if I had kids. Give me a 50% paycut if need be, I'm not dealing with a schedule where I leave before my wife wakes up and come home after she is fast asleep, let alone the kids.

The thing that I hate about my schedule is that sometimes I leave before my kid is awake, then come home after she's asleep, then the same thing happens the next day. That's pretty intolerable, even if it happens rarely.


So then why do it?

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DELG
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Re: 110 hour week

Postby DELG » Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:07 am

Anonymous User wrote:
DELG wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:
DELG wrote:i dunno. both my husband and i are at firms. we don't see each other or our kid enough but at the end of the day we all still love each other and enjoy the time we do have.


Everyone defines "enough" differently. I think I would be perfectly fine working 60 hours a week for the rest of my life if my salary was substantial and allowed my family to enjoy a good lifestyle. You pull n 8-7 Mon-Fri, do a half day on Sat and relax for the remainder of the weekend. Still get dinner at home, still spend some time with family, still have time for the gym and some activities, etc.. At 70+ hours I would GTFO if I had kids. Give me a 50% paycut if need be, I'm not dealing with a schedule where I leave before my wife wakes up and come home after she is fast asleep, let alone the kids.

The thing that I hate about my schedule is that sometimes I leave before my kid is awake, then come home after she's asleep, then the same thing happens the next day. That's pretty intolerable, even if it happens rarely.


So then why do it?

I don't understand the question

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Re: 110 hour week

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:16 am

Not sure what the point is in continuing to work in biglaw if it leads you to be in a situation where you have to leave before your kid is awake and then come home after your kid is asleep multiple nights in a row. Unless student loans are literally chaining you to that desk, I just don't see the point, and I know I wouldn't want to be there anymore. But maybe thats just me.

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Re: 110 hour week

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Thu Apr 09, 2015 12:14 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Not sure what the point is in continuing to work in biglaw if it leads you to be in a situation where you have to leave before your kid is awake and then come home after your kid is asleep multiple nights in a row. Unless student loans are literally chaining you to that desk, I just don't see the point, and I know I wouldn't want to be there anymore. But maybe thats just me.

It's not like other, better opportunities grow on trees.




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