110 hour week

(On Campus Interviews, Summer Associate positions, Firm Reviews, Tips, ...)
Forum rules
Anonymous Posting

Anonymous posting is only appropriate when you are revealing sensitive employment related information about a firm, job, etc. You may anonymously respond on topic to these threads. Unacceptable uses include: harassing another user, joking around, testing the feature, or other things that are more appropriate in the lounge.

Failure to follow these rules will get you outed, warned, or banned.
User avatar
DELG
Posts: 2936
Joined: Thu May 15, 2014 7:15 pm

Re: 110 hour week

Postby DELG » Wed Apr 01, 2015 3:28 pm

yeah i don't particularly want more money

dixiecupdrinking
Posts: 3139
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 2:39 pm

Re: 110 hour week

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Wed Apr 01, 2015 5:13 pm

More money would incentivize me to stay in the job a bit longer than I might otherwise, so it would be a success in that sense, but it probably wouldn't make me any more satisfied. Stronger golden handcuffs, if you will.

wildhaggis
Posts: 196
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2011 1:47 pm

Re: 110 hour week

Postby wildhaggis » Wed Apr 01, 2015 5:16 pm

More money only helps to the extent that it gets you the fuck out sooner. An extra dollar (or hundred) doesn't equal an extra unit of misery you're willing to swallow, so to speak, or an extra tenth of an hour away from my friends or family. This almost implies that some amount of compensation could get me to work 3000 hours per year indefinitely, with satisfaction, so long as I was compensated such as I felt was necessary for that sort of input. I imagine this is not true for most people (go ahead, tell me I'm wrong, I guess). At the risk of sounding banal, there are some things in life that are actually "priceless" for most people, literally speaking.

As others have already posted, compensation as it presently exists in the biglaw model is a hygiene factor. They're giving you a sufficiently high enough number to keep you comfortable and complacent so you shut your mouth and do what needs to get done whenever that needs to happen. If they were actually compensating you for the amount you contribute or generate, either base salary would be computed in a considerably different fashion, or bonuses would not work the way they currently do.

User avatar
dudley12
Posts: 208
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:43 pm

Re: 110 hour week

Postby dudley12 » Wed Apr 01, 2015 7:05 pm

pay your debt and leave

Anonymous User
Posts: 273258
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: 110 hour week

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Apr 01, 2015 7:19 pm

Extra money wouldn't make it any more bearable. As someone said, it would just shorten the time frame in which you have to be there, since you can pay debt off slightly faster if more pay. Here is why more money makes it no less satisfying or bearable. I can't just throw money at my constant anxiety, panic attacks, and increasing depression to make them all go away. I can't buy back time lost with my family. Additional cash doesn't make me less fatigued, lethargic, and physically broken down. No amount of money fixes those issues. Again, the extra cash merely serves to shorten the sentence.

User avatar
BiglawAssociate
Posts: 355
Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2015 12:05 am

Re: 110 hour week

Postby BiglawAssociate » Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:25 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Extra money wouldn't make it any more bearable. As someone said, it would just shorten the time frame in which you have to be there, since you can pay debt off slightly faster if more pay. Here is why more money makes it no less satisfying or bearable. I can't just throw money at my constant anxiety, panic attacks, and increasing depression to make them all go away. I can't buy back time lost with my family. Additional cash doesn't make me less fatigued, lethargic, and physically broken down. No amount of money fixes those issues. Again, the extra cash merely serves to shorten the sentence.


Um, thought about going to a shrink?

Anonymous User
Posts: 273258
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: 110 hour week

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Apr 03, 2015 2:28 am

Anonymous User wrote:More flexibility and autonomy. More appreciation and recognition. More opportunity and personal reward. I think the structure of a big firm can make it difficult to systematize and guarantee those incentives, but to their credit, I think a lot of firms and people do try to create them, or at least give them lip service. And it is not like it is only law firms that fail to provide meaningful incentives.


So as a senior associate...I can tell you that all these things do come with time. The junior years were miserable. The senior years are a lot better. I think even the early partner years (for those lucky enough to see them) are better still, with increasingly more opportunities, interesting work, reward, and credit.

The issue is that, from what I've seen, the hours don't get remarkably better. I don't generally bill 110 hours a week, but am above a 2700 hour pace so far this year. Last year was similar. And those hours take their toll, no matter how much you like the work, your colleagues, the firm, the money. I like it all, I'm happy at work...and the hours are still bringing me to the point of sheer exhaustion. I'd like to think it gets better, but the partners whom I most look up to work as much as I do (although a lower percentage of their work is billable and a higher percentage is business generation.)

User avatar
JohannDeMann
Posts: 13831
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 4:25 pm

Re: 110 hour week

Postby JohannDeMann » Fri Apr 03, 2015 2:36 am

Jesus Christ that's sadder than the 110 hour week. Why are you steadily billing 2700/year? This profession baffles me.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273258
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: 110 hour week

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Apr 03, 2015 1:51 pm

BiglawAssociate wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Extra money wouldn't make it any more bearable. As someone said, it would just shorten the time frame in which you have to be there, since you can pay debt off slightly faster if more pay. Here is why more money makes it no less satisfying or bearable. I can't just throw money at my constant anxiety, panic attacks, and increasing depression to make them all go away. I can't buy back time lost with my family. Additional cash doesn't make me less fatigued, lethargic, and physically broken down. No amount of money fixes those issues. Again, the extra cash merely serves to shorten the sentence.


Um, thought about going to a shrink?


Yes, I actually just recently started going. But her advice was essentially that I have to draw more boundaries and put some blinders on for "me time". So its not too far from what my plan was (i.e. do good work, be available, etc. but no reason to grind to the bone and bill way above the hours requirement, since I have no intention of being here long term anyway).

User avatar
sinfiery
Posts: 3308
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:55 am

Re: 110 hour week

Postby sinfiery » Fri Apr 03, 2015 2:02 pm

Anyone know of people who have been fired for billing the minimum for a bonus +/- 100 before year 5?

Anonymous User
Posts: 273258
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: 110 hour week

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Apr 03, 2015 2:08 pm

JohannDeMann wrote:Jesus Christ that's sadder than the 110 hour week. Why are you steadily billing 2700/year? This profession baffles me.


Makes it that much easier for me to say that I'm just going to do my time, bill reasonable number of hours without taking it to the extreme, pay off my loans, and then go do something I would enjoy far more. Its watching partners and senior associates that make me realize that there is no light at the end of the tunnel on this path.

User avatar
Desert Fox
Progressively loosing literacy
Posts: 14413
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2014 4:34 pm

Re: 110 hour week

Postby Desert Fox » Fri Apr 03, 2015 2:09 pm

best case you peacefully die at the hands of a fake gay hooker in a nice hotel room.

User avatar
El Pollito
party fowl
Posts: 17893
Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:11 pm

Re: 110 hour week

Postby El Pollito » Fri Apr 03, 2015 2:13 pm

Desert Fox wrote:best case you peacefully die at the hands of a fake gay hooker in a nice hotel room.

:lol:

User avatar
MarkinKansasCity
Posts: 10980
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:18 am

Re: 110 hour week

Postby MarkinKansasCity » Fri Apr 03, 2015 2:14 pm

DELG wrote:yeah i don't particularly want more money


Submitted as evidence in pay gap argument.

User avatar
ExBiglawAssociate
Posts: 2090
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:06 pm

Re: 110 hour week

Postby ExBiglawAssociate » Fri Apr 03, 2015 2:24 pm

BiglawAssociate wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Extra money wouldn't make it any more bearable. As someone said, it would just shorten the time frame in which you have to be there, since you can pay debt off slightly faster if more pay. Here is why more money makes it no less satisfying or bearable. I can't just throw money at my constant anxiety, panic attacks, and increasing depression to make them all go away. I can't buy back time lost with my family. Additional cash doesn't make me less fatigued, lethargic, and physically broken down. No amount of money fixes those issues. Again, the extra cash merely serves to shorten the sentence.


Um, thought about going to a shrink?


That's not really going to do anything about the underlying causes.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273258
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: 110 hour week

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Apr 03, 2015 2:34 pm

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:
BiglawAssociate wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Extra money wouldn't make it any more bearable. As someone said, it would just shorten the time frame in which you have to be there, since you can pay debt off slightly faster if more pay. Here is why more money makes it no less satisfying or bearable. I can't just throw money at my constant anxiety, panic attacks, and increasing depression to make them all go away. I can't buy back time lost with my family. Additional cash doesn't make me less fatigued, lethargic, and physically broken down. No amount of money fixes those issues. Again, the extra cash merely serves to shorten the sentence.


Um, thought about going to a shrink?


That's not really going to do anything about the underlying causes.


After meeting with her a few times, its pretty clear that she isn't recommending anything I couldn't have guessed myself. Said that letting work bleed into any and all aspects of my personal life is slowly chipping away at my mental health. This is why I simply have to draw more boundaries. Again, thats not to say I wouldn't drop everything and work whatever hours necessary in case of an emergency at work, but its just not worth it to grind out 230 hour months over and over just for the sake of saying that I grind out 230 hour months regularly.

User avatar
AreJay711
Posts: 3406
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:51 pm

Re: 110 hour week

Postby AreJay711 » Fri Apr 03, 2015 2:37 pm

Anonymous User wrote:After meeting with her a few times, its pretty clear that she isn't recommending anything I couldn't have guessed myself. Said that letting work bleed into any and all aspects of my personal life is slowly chipping away at my mental health. This is why I simply have to draw more boundaries. Again, thats not to say I wouldn't drop everything and work whatever hours necessary in case of an emergency at work, but its just not worth it to grind out 230 hour months over and over just for the sake of saying that I grind out 230 hour months regularly.


Hence the reason lawyers become alcoholics. Try to avoid that.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273258
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: 110 hour week

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Apr 03, 2015 2:44 pm

AreJay711 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:After meeting with her a few times, its pretty clear that she isn't recommending anything I couldn't have guessed myself. Said that letting work bleed into any and all aspects of my personal life is slowly chipping away at my mental health. This is why I simply have to draw more boundaries. Again, thats not to say I wouldn't drop everything and work whatever hours necessary in case of an emergency at work, but its just not worth it to grind out 230 hour months over and over just for the sake of saying that I grind out 230 hour months regularly.


Hence the reason lawyers become alcoholics. Try to avoid that.


While I was more than a bit embarrassed to admit to my loved ones that an easygoing and happy person like me is seeking out therapy, I am glad that I'm addressing this problem now before it gets out of hand. I think I just needed the perspective on things, and to sort of let things go a bit more. I'm the neurotic and controlling type (as so many lawyers are), so its hard for me to say "I'm just going to go in, do my work well, be available as necessary, and then go home and relax, and enjoy my weekends unless there is an emergency that comes up". But given that I have no intention of doing this for more than a few more years at most, I don't see the point of approaching it differently.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273258
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: 110 hour week

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Apr 03, 2015 2:56 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
AreJay711 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:After meeting with her a few times, its pretty clear that she isn't recommending anything I couldn't have guessed myself. Said that letting work bleed into any and all aspects of my personal life is slowly chipping away at my mental health. This is why I simply have to draw more boundaries. Again, thats not to say I wouldn't drop everything and work whatever hours necessary in case of an emergency at work, but its just not worth it to grind out 230 hour months over and over just for the sake of saying that I grind out 230 hour months regularly.


Hence the reason lawyers become alcoholics. Try to avoid that.


While I was more than a bit embarrassed to admit to my loved ones that an easygoing and happy person like me is seeking out therapy, I am glad that I'm addressing this problem now before it gets out of hand. I think I just needed the perspective on things, and to sort of let things go a bit more. I'm the neurotic and controlling type (as so many lawyers are), so its hard for me to say "I'm just going to go in, do my work well, be available as necessary, and then go home and relax, and enjoy my weekends unless there is an emergency that comes up". But given that I have no intention of doing this for more than a few more years at most, I don't see the point of approaching it differently.

It's really, really great that you're seeing someone. I initially went to a therapist after a personal trauma (mugging), but ended up staying in therapy and spending waaaay more time dealing with setting boundaries with the senior partner I work with than with the mugging thing. I've been seeing my therapist for more than a year about these issues and it's helped tremendously. And setting and enforcing boundaries with the partner (and other partners in my department) doesn't seem to have actually hurt me at work since they still know I'm ready and willing to jump in if there's a true emergency.

User avatar
rpupkin
Posts: 3864
Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:32 pm

Re: 110 hour week

Postby rpupkin » Fri Apr 03, 2015 2:57 pm

AreJay711 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:After meeting with her a few times, its pretty clear that she isn't recommending anything I couldn't have guessed myself. Said that letting work bleed into any and all aspects of my personal life is slowly chipping away at my mental health. This is why I simply have to draw more boundaries. Again, thats not to say I wouldn't drop everything and work whatever hours necessary in case of an emergency at work, but its just not worth it to grind out 230 hour months over and over just for the sake of saying that I grind out 230 hour months regularly.


Hence the reason lawyers become alcoholics. Try to avoid that.

You know, I've never gotten this. When I'm slammed and working a ton, I don't really want to drink. I mean, once in awhile I'll have a drink or two in the evening and then do some additional work, but if I drink a lot I can't work as effectively and I'll take even longer to get shit done (thus further cutting into free time/sleep). If anything, I drink more when work is slow and I'm not stressed.

I'm really impressed by folks who bill 200+ hours month after month while drinking heavily. The two seem incompatible. I guess I just lack the constitution. Or perhaps I just lack the amphetamines required to offset the depressant effects of alcohol.

User avatar
El Pollito
party fowl
Posts: 17893
Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:11 pm

Re: 110 hour week

Postby El Pollito » Fri Apr 03, 2015 3:00 pm

rpupkin wrote:
AreJay711 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:After meeting with her a few times, its pretty clear that she isn't recommending anything I couldn't have guessed myself. Said that letting work bleed into any and all aspects of my personal life is slowly chipping away at my mental health. This is why I simply have to draw more boundaries. Again, thats not to say I wouldn't drop everything and work whatever hours necessary in case of an emergency at work, but its just not worth it to grind out 230 hour months over and over just for the sake of saying that I grind out 230 hour months regularly.


Hence the reason lawyers become alcoholics. Try to avoid that.

You know, I've never gotten this. When I'm slammed and working a ton, I don't really want to drink. I mean, once in awhile I'll have a drink or two in the evening and then do some additional work, but if I drink a lot I can't work as effectively and I'll take even longer to get shit done (thus further cutting into free time/sleep). If anything, I drink more when work is slow and I'm not stressed.

I'm really impressed by folks who bill 200+ hours month after month while drinking heavily. The two seem incompatible. I guess I just lack the constitution. Or perhaps I just lack the amphetamines required to offset the depressant effects of alcohol.

yup

User avatar
AreJay711
Posts: 3406
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:51 pm

Re: 110 hour week

Postby AreJay711 » Fri Apr 03, 2015 3:12 pm

rpupkin wrote:
You know, I've never gotten this. When I'm slammed and working a ton, I don't really want to drink. I mean, once in awhile I'll have a drink or two in the evening and then do some additional work, but if I drink a lot I can't work as effectively and I'll take even longer to get shit done (thus further cutting into free time/sleep). If anything, I drink more when work is slow and I'm not stressed.

I'm really impressed by folks who bill 200+ hours month after month while drinking heavily. The two seem incompatible. I guess I just lack the constitution. Or perhaps I just lack the amphetamines required to offset the depressant effects of alcohol.


I think at first it has to do more with getting you mind off work when you aren't working. Alcohol probably helps, but I could imagine that, after several months of using alcohol every day to relax, shit could start to spiral.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273258
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: 110 hour week

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Apr 03, 2015 3:14 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
AreJay711 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:After meeting with her a few times, its pretty clear that she isn't recommending anything I couldn't have guessed myself. Said that letting work bleed into any and all aspects of my personal life is slowly chipping away at my mental health. This is why I simply have to draw more boundaries. Again, thats not to say I wouldn't drop everything and work whatever hours necessary in case of an emergency at work, but its just not worth it to grind out 230 hour months over and over just for the sake of saying that I grind out 230 hour months regularly.


Hence the reason lawyers become alcoholics. Try to avoid that.


While I was more than a bit embarrassed to admit to my loved ones that an easygoing and happy person like me is seeking out therapy, I am glad that I'm addressing this problem now before it gets out of hand. I think I just needed the perspective on things, and to sort of let things go a bit more. I'm the neurotic and controlling type (as so many lawyers are), so its hard for me to say "I'm just going to go in, do my work well, be available as necessary, and then go home and relax, and enjoy my weekends unless there is an emergency that comes up". But given that I have no intention of doing this for more than a few more years at most, I don't see the point of approaching it differently.

It's really, really great that you're seeing someone. I initially went to a therapist after a personal trauma (mugging), but ended up staying in therapy and spending waaaay more time dealing with setting boundaries with the senior partner I work with than with the mugging thing. I've been seeing my therapist for more than a year about these issues and it's helped tremendously. And setting and enforcing boundaries with the partner (and other partners in my department) doesn't seem to have actually hurt me at work since they still know I'm ready and willing to jump in if there's a true emergency.


Thanks. I appreciate the input, and while I hate that others have to seek out therapy for this, I guess its good to know I'm not alone. I don't think setting those boundaries would hurt me. Sure, it may set a glass ceiling for your biglaw career, but thats simply not an issue to me since I will be gone before it ever matters. No junior who does good work, hits the hour requirement, and is generally available and well-regarded gets tossed unless very extenuating circumstances.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273258
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: 110 hour week

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Apr 03, 2015 3:15 pm

AreJay711 wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
You know, I've never gotten this. When I'm slammed and working a ton, I don't really want to drink. I mean, once in awhile I'll have a drink or two in the evening and then do some additional work, but if I drink a lot I can't work as effectively and I'll take even longer to get shit done (thus further cutting into free time/sleep). If anything, I drink more when work is slow and I'm not stressed.

I'm really impressed by folks who bill 200+ hours month after month while drinking heavily. The two seem incompatible. I guess I just lack the constitution. Or perhaps I just lack the amphetamines required to offset the depressant effects of alcohol.


I think at first it has to do more with getting you mind off work when you aren't working. Alcohol probably helps, but I could imagine that, after several months of using alcohol every day to relax, shit could start to spiral.


I think this is right. My big problem, and what drove me to therapy, is that I can't mentally "leave" work ever. Its always on my mind, and I can no longer enjoy the slivers of free time I have left. So one time I went drinking with friends not to just chill and have fun, but as a tool for forcing my mind to finally think about something else. And thats sort of how I knew I needed to seek out therapy for this problem, since using alcohol for that purpose was definitely not something I ever wanted to do.

User avatar
rpupkin
Posts: 3864
Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:32 pm

Re: 110 hour week

Postby rpupkin » Fri Apr 03, 2015 3:20 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I think this is right. My big problem, and what drove me to therapy, is that I can't mentally "leave" work ever. Its always on my mind, and I can no longer enjoy the slivers of free time I have left. So one time I went drinking with friends not to just chill and have fun, but as a tool for forcing my mind to finally think about something else. And thats sort of how I knew I needed to seek out therapy for this problem, since using alcohol for that purpose was definitely not something I ever wanted to do.

Oh wow. I've definitely done the bolded, even though I'm a light drinker overall. I think occasionally using alcohol to think about something else (or take the edge off your thoughts) is fine. Isn't that why most people drink? But, yeah, if it becomes a daily coping mechanism, that's cause for concern.




Return to “Legal Employment”

Who is online

The online users are hidden on this forum.