110 hour week

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BiglawAssociate
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Re: 110 hour week

Postby BiglawAssociate » Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:05 am

Anonymous User wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:Yes, if you hate big law and it is unrelated to your ultimate career goals, it's not shortsighted to choose not to work yourself to the bone for some extra cash. Jesus.

All the people I know who are in public interest or government jobs are leaps and bounds happier than all the people I know in biglaw. They do PSLF and won't buy a house anytime soon. That doesn't make it "shortsighted" of them to prioritize their satisfaction over money.


Thats how I'm treating it. And its why I'm likely making a transition from biglaw into public interest (I have some connections in one area that can hopefully help me secure a job). Even after 1.5 years, I just don't care about the money anymore. I don't care about getting a flashy car, big house, or anything like that anymore. I want to see my wife, experience life a bit outside the office, be free of this all-encompassing stress that has driven me to anxiety and depression that requires weekly therapy, etc.

But in the interim, I plan to draw some more concrete boundaries, leave the office earlier, shut my phone off a little more at night and on the weekends, etc. I realized I'm an "enabler." They email me so much because I'm so responsive, nights weekends or otherwise. They give me so much night and weekend work because I always pretend to be enthusiastic and a "team-player" willing to take the hit. I need to stop enabling that behavior by drawing a line in the sand.


It helps if you stop giving as much of a fuck (and this naturally happens when you pay off your loans). Then you don't need to quadruple check your work; if the senior fixes your edits, you go "oh well." You could probably ride it out for a year or two with this mentality, if not longer as long as you still do work when you're given it. It also helps if you don't really want to be a lawyer post-biglaw (and is just for the ride to save up cash).

Some PI attorneys, just to warn you, work a shitload, for crappy pay. There are a bunch of non-profits in NYC that work their attorneys with firm hours....So find a non profit that is legit 8/9 to 5.
Last edited by BiglawAssociate on Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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bearsfan23
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Re: 110 hour week

Postby bearsfan23 » Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:09 am

BiglawAssociate wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:Yes, if you hate big law and it is unrelated to your ultimate career goals, it's not shortsighted to choose not to work yourself to the bone for some extra cash. Jesus.

All the people I know who are in public interest or government jobs are leaps and bounds happier than all the people I know in biglaw. They do PSLF and won't buy a house anytime soon. That doesn't make it "shortsighted" of them to prioritize their satisfaction over money.


Thats how I'm treating it. And its why I'm likely making a transition from biglaw into public interest (I have some connections in one area that can hopefully help me secure a job). Even after 1.5 years, I just don't care about the money anymore. I don't care about getting a flashy car, big house, or anything like that anymore. I want to see my wife, experience life a bit outside the office, be free of this all-encompassing stress that has driven me to anxiety and depression that requires weekly therapy, etc.

But in the interim, I plan to draw some more concrete boundaries, leave the office earlier, shut my phone off a little more at night and on the weekends, etc. I realized I'm an "enabler." They email me so much because I'm so responsive, nights weekends or otherwise. They give me so much night and weekend work because I always pretend to be enthusiastic and a "team-player" willing to take the hit. I need to stop enabling that behavior by drawing a line in the sand.


It helps if you stop giving as much of a fuck (and this naturally happens when you pay off your loans). Then you don't need to quadruple check your work; if the senior fixes your edits, you go "oh well." You could probably ride it out for a year or two with this mentality, if not longer as long as you still do work when you're given it.


Wait, how would you know about paying off loans?

You've been bragging in every thread about how ridiculously rich your wife is. If you're going to troll TLS, at least keep a consistent story.

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BiglawAssociate
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Re: 110 hour week

Postby BiglawAssociate » Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:09 am

bearsfan23 wrote:
BiglawAssociate wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:Yes, if you hate big law and it is unrelated to your ultimate career goals, it's not shortsighted to choose not to work yourself to the bone for some extra cash. Jesus.

All the people I know who are in public interest or government jobs are leaps and bounds happier than all the people I know in biglaw. They do PSLF and won't buy a house anytime soon. That doesn't make it "shortsighted" of them to prioritize their satisfaction over money.


Thats how I'm treating it. And its why I'm likely making a transition from biglaw into public interest (I have some connections in one area that can hopefully help me secure a job). Even after 1.5 years, I just don't care about the money anymore. I don't care about getting a flashy car, big house, or anything like that anymore. I want to see my wife, experience life a bit outside the office, be free of this all-encompassing stress that has driven me to anxiety and depression that requires weekly therapy, etc.

But in the interim, I plan to draw some more concrete boundaries, leave the office earlier, shut my phone off a little more at night and on the weekends, etc. I realized I'm an "enabler." They email me so much because I'm so responsive, nights weekends or otherwise. They give me so much night and weekend work because I always pretend to be enthusiastic and a "team-player" willing to take the hit. I need to stop enabling that behavior by drawing a line in the sand.


It helps if you stop giving as much of a fuck (and this naturally happens when you pay off your loans). Then you don't need to quadruple check your work; if the senior fixes your edits, you go "oh well." You could probably ride it out for a year or two with this mentality, if not longer as long as you still do work when you're given it.


Wait, how would you know about paying off loans?

You've been bragging in every thread about how ridiculously rich your wife is. If you're going to troll TLS, at least keep a consistent story.


I married rich, but I still paid off my own loans before I got married. Why would my spouse pay off my loans? My parents live in a 1mm dollar house and make six figures - they ain't rich. They paid for college but not grad school.

My in laws do buy us shit though - pay for part of our apartment, offered to buy us a new car, etc. etc. If we move out of NYC, they will likely buy us a house (they already have multiple houses).

I'm not sure why you think any of this is trolling.

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Re: 110 hour week

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:30 am

BiglawAssociate wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:Yes, if you hate big law and it is unrelated to your ultimate career goals, it's not shortsighted to choose not to work yourself to the bone for some extra cash. Jesus.

All the people I know who are in public interest or government jobs are leaps and bounds happier than all the people I know in biglaw. They do PSLF and won't buy a house anytime soon. That doesn't make it "shortsighted" of them to prioritize their satisfaction over money.


Thats how I'm treating it. And its why I'm likely making a transition from biglaw into public interest (I have some connections in one area that can hopefully help me secure a job). Even after 1.5 years, I just don't care about the money anymore. I don't care about getting a flashy car, big house, or anything like that anymore. I want to see my wife, experience life a bit outside the office, be free of this all-encompassing stress that has driven me to anxiety and depression that requires weekly therapy, etc.

But in the interim, I plan to draw some more concrete boundaries, leave the office earlier, shut my phone off a little more at night and on the weekends, etc. I realized I'm an "enabler." They email me so much because I'm so responsive, nights weekends or otherwise. They give me so much night and weekend work because I always pretend to be enthusiastic and a "team-player" willing to take the hit. I need to stop enabling that behavior by drawing a line in the sand.


It helps if you stop giving as much of a fuck (and this naturally happens when you pay off your loans). Then you don't need to quadruple check your work; if the senior fixes your edits, you go "oh well." You could probably ride it out for a year or two with this mentality, if not longer as long as you still do work when you're given it. It also helps if you don't really want to be a lawyer post-biglaw (and is just for the ride to save up cash).

Some PI attorneys, just to warn you, work a shitload, for crappy pay. There are a bunch of non-profits in NYC that work their attorneys with firm hours....So find a non profit that is legit 8/9 to 5.


Do people actually care if seniors make edits on their mark ups? Is this actually something people are worried about as junior associates?

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chuckbass
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Re: 110 hour week

Postby chuckbass » Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:31 am

BiglawAssociate wrote:I married rich, but I still paid off my own loans before I got married. Why would my spouse pay off my loans? My parents live in a 1mm dollar house and make six figures - they ain't rich. They paid for college but not grad school.

My in laws do buy us shit though - pay for part of our apartment, offered to buy us a new car, etc. etc. If we move out of NYC, they will likely buy us a house (they already have multiple houses).

I'm not sure why you think any of this is trolling.

Because people don't talk about this kind of stuff so openly.

You're a shining example of money not buying class.

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BiglawAssociate
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Re: 110 hour week

Postby BiglawAssociate » Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:40 am

Anonymous User wrote:
BiglawAssociate wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:Yes, if you hate big law and it is unrelated to your ultimate career goals, it's not shortsighted to choose not to work yourself to the bone for some extra cash. Jesus.

All the people I know who are in public interest or government jobs are leaps and bounds happier than all the people I know in biglaw. They do PSLF and won't buy a house anytime soon. That doesn't make it "shortsighted" of them to prioritize their satisfaction over money.


Thats how I'm treating it. And its why I'm likely making a transition from biglaw into public interest (I have some connections in one area that can hopefully help me secure a job). Even after 1.5 years, I just don't care about the money anymore. I don't care about getting a flashy car, big house, or anything like that anymore. I want to see my wife, experience life a bit outside the office, be free of this all-encompassing stress that has driven me to anxiety and depression that requires weekly therapy, etc.

But in the interim, I plan to draw some more concrete boundaries, leave the office earlier, shut my phone off a little more at night and on the weekends, etc. I realized I'm an "enabler." They email me so much because I'm so responsive, nights weekends or otherwise. They give me so much night and weekend work because I always pretend to be enthusiastic and a "team-player" willing to take the hit. I need to stop enabling that behavior by drawing a line in the sand.


It helps if you stop giving as much of a fuck (and this naturally happens when you pay off your loans). Then you don't need to quadruple check your work; if the senior fixes your edits, you go "oh well." You could probably ride it out for a year or two with this mentality, if not longer as long as you still do work when you're given it. It also helps if you don't really want to be a lawyer post-biglaw (and is just for the ride to save up cash).

Some PI attorneys, just to warn you, work a shitload, for crappy pay. There are a bunch of non-profits in NYC that work their attorneys with firm hours....So find a non profit that is legit 8/9 to 5.


Do people actually care if seniors make edits on their mark ups? Is this actually something people are worried about as junior associates?


If it's something you should have caught, then it makes you look dumb. Also some seniors will chew you out

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BiglawAssociate
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Re: 110 hour week

Postby BiglawAssociate » Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:43 am

scottidsntknow wrote:
BiglawAssociate wrote:I married rich, but I still paid off my own loans before I got married. Why would my spouse pay off my loans? My parents live in a 1mm dollar house and make six figures - they ain't rich. They paid for college but not grad school.

My in laws do buy us shit though - pay for part of our apartment, offered to buy us a new car, etc. etc. If we move out of NYC, they will likely buy us a house (they already have multiple houses).

I'm not sure why you think any of this is trolling.

Because people don't talk about this kind of stuff so openly.

You're a shining example of money not buying class.


And your point is? What is "class" anyway - another bullshit notion like "prestige." Intangible stuff don't mean anything to me.

Having money and no class >>>> being poor with "class" (whatever that is)

Also maybe you don't know enough people with money. Lots of them talk about how to make money/investments/their vacation homes, etc. etc. "What did you do this weekend?" "Oh I visited my second vacation home this weekend". "My parents are buying me a condo in NYC, etc."

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Re: 110 hour week

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:48 am

BiglawAssociate wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:Yes, if you hate big law and it is unrelated to your ultimate career goals, it's not shortsighted to choose not to work yourself to the bone for some extra cash. Jesus.

All the people I know who are in public interest or government jobs are leaps and bounds happier than all the people I know in biglaw. They do PSLF and won't buy a house anytime soon. That doesn't make it "shortsighted" of them to prioritize their satisfaction over money.


Thats how I'm treating it. And its why I'm likely making a transition from biglaw into public interest (I have some connections in one area that can hopefully help me secure a job). Even after 1.5 years, I just don't care about the money anymore. I don't care about getting a flashy car, big house, or anything like that anymore. I want to see my wife, experience life a bit outside the office, be free of this all-encompassing stress that has driven me to anxiety and depression that requires weekly therapy, etc.

But in the interim, I plan to draw some more concrete boundaries, leave the office earlier, shut my phone off a little more at night and on the weekends, etc. I realized I'm an "enabler." They email me so much because I'm so responsive, nights weekends or otherwise. They give me so much night and weekend work because I always pretend to be enthusiastic and a "team-player" willing to take the hit. I need to stop enabling that behavior by drawing a line in the sand.


It helps if you stop giving as much of a fuck (and this naturally happens when you pay off your loans). Then you don't need to quadruple check your work; if the senior fixes your edits, you go "oh well." You could probably ride it out for a year or two with this mentality, if not longer as long as you still do work when you're given it. It also helps if you don't really want to be a lawyer post-biglaw (and is just for the ride to save up cash).

Some PI attorneys, just to warn you, work a shitload, for crappy pay. There are a bunch of non-profits in NYC that work their attorneys with firm hours....So find a non profit that is legit 8/9 to 5.


I think this may be taking it further than I was suggesting. I still very much "give a fuck" and will continue to do so. I take pride in doing good work, being dependable, making a good reputation for myself, etc. My suggestion was just drawing some boundaries as to create some personal time, some semblance of balance, etc. Right now, I'm working the hours of the strivers with delusions of partnership, and thats not something that is healthy for me. I never meant to imply that I no longer care, that I'm coasting or checking out, etc. One can still work just a bit less yet still work well, I would think.

itbdvorm
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Re: 110 hour week

Postby itbdvorm » Tue Mar 31, 2015 2:32 pm

JohannDeMann wrote:
itbdvorm wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
itbdvorm wrote:In short - you want to coast, fine, coast. Collect your check and run as fast as you can. Leave at 5 PM, while your colleagues and senior associates and partners are working until midnight. Enjoy your weekend while everyone else is huddled in a conference room. And then 15 years from now, when those same colleagues and senior associates are significantly more successful than you are - IN EVERY RESPECT, not just financially, because these are the people who will get the great in-house / public interest / government jobs - wonder why.


See, this is a total strawman here. No one said coasting, no one said leaving at 5, no one said checking out. And this is precisely the issue I'm talking about. The mere suggestion of not working until midnight every night somehow becomes dichotomous with the guy who bails at 5 PM. The thought of someone taking some personal time for themselves and their families is somehow misconstrued into checking out and coasting.

Whereas the initial suggestion was simply not grinding it to the bone. What I initially suggested is not staying until midnight unless absolutely necessary (i.e. not just looking for a reason to be there late). Doing your work well, but drawing some boundaries for the sake of sanity. Still going above and beyond hours requirements, without grinding it out the way that the shameless strivers do. If you want to equate that to running out at 5, coasting, and not being there while others are, then think what you want. Its that skewed and incorrect mindset that directly feeds into the inability to create balance in the biglaw environment. In other words, the skewed perspective of a select few makes the workplace unmanageable for the whole.


Sadly, it's not that much of a strawman.

The issue we see - very often - is people showing up with an attitude of "I am going to work the hours requirement and no more." But that's not what this job is. Everyone considering big law knows, or should know, that the job is HORRIBLE at times. I frankly have zero problem with people who finish a deal, or a case, and want some me time to recover (that's totally understandable). But the issue comes with one of the following two scenarios:

Scenario 1: Huge deal comes in. Junior is staffed on huge deal. Insane deadlines are demanded for huge deal. Junior says "I have dinner plans, I am taking off and being unavailable for 3 hours."

Scenario 2: Everyone is busy. Junior is working towards a reasonable pace for the year. New deal comes in. Junior says "no, I'm too busy."

The problem is - Junior is employed by an enterprise that is paying Junior to sacrifice his/her free time. That's the point. Pain comes in and needs to be distributed relatively fairly. By saying "no, I'm not doing that" the rest of the team suffers more, and Junior both becomes resented and falls behind in skill level.

You need to carve out time for yourself sometimes. But know when to say when.


You should prolly just get use to this and start hiring more people if you have more than 50 hours of work for them. Also if you want people to work insane hours for you, might help to be appreciative of it instead of an entitled dick to think you get every hour of someones life.


I mean. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77Y6CIyyBcI

Look, I have zero issue with people who don't want to do BigLaw at all. But there is a serious disconnect with people who are accepting a job, straight out of school, with zero work experience, and getting paid a lot of money, and being upset when asked to work long hours.

This job is horrible. Everyone knows it, and if you're coming into it thinking it's not you're either delusional or lying to yourself.

The counterpoint is you get paid a lot of money, and if you buy-in you can get great opportunities for later (that may or may not be at a firm).

What's frustrating is the sense I get from plenty of people that they want the high-paying job, but only if they can do it on their terms. But that's not the deal.

ruski
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Re: 110 hour week

Postby ruski » Tue Mar 31, 2015 5:23 pm

I don't think thats it. No one minds working hard. We've all been working hard our whole life. It's working *unnecessarily* hard where most of the complaints come from. After getting forwarded emails days later, asked to completely redo assignments because senior associate didn't take 3 min to think about what format he wanted in, going through 8 drafts of a one page issues list, creating stupid charts and summaries and summary of summaries that literally no one ever looks at, and doing all this at 2 am, getting thrown under the bus for other people mistakes, you better believe my attitude will be to do the bare minimum I need to do just get by

071816
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Re: 110 hour week

Postby 071816 » Tue Mar 31, 2015 5:30 pm

BiglawAssociate wrote:And your point is? What is "class" anyway - another bullshit notion like "prestige." Intangible stuff don't mean anything to me.

Having money and no class >>>> being poor with "class" (whatever that is)

Also maybe you don't know enough people with money. Lots of them talk about how to make money/investments/their vacation homes, etc. etc. "What did you do this weekend?" "Oh I visited my second vacation home this weekend". "My parents are buying me a condo in NYC, etc."

:!: DOUCHEBAG ALERT

exitoptions
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Re: 110 hour week

Postby exitoptions » Tue Mar 31, 2015 5:44 pm

BiglawAssociate wrote:
scottidsntknow wrote:
BiglawAssociate wrote:I married rich, but I still paid off my own loans before I got married. Why would my spouse pay off my loans? My parents live in a 1mm dollar house and make six figures - they ain't rich. They paid for college but not grad school.

My in laws do buy us shit though - pay for part of our apartment, offered to buy us a new car, etc. etc. If we move out of NYC, they will likely buy us a house (they already have multiple houses).

I'm not sure why you think any of this is trolling.

Because people don't talk about this kind of stuff so openly.

You're a shining example of money not buying class.


And your point is? What is "class" anyway - another bullshit notion like "prestige." Intangible stuff don't mean anything to me.

Having money and no class >>>> being poor with "class" (whatever that is)

Also maybe you don't know enough people with money. Lots of them talk about how to make money/investments/their vacation homes, etc. etc. "What did you do this weekend?" "Oh I visited my second vacation home this weekend". "My parents are buying me a condo in NYC, etc."


I know quite a few wealthy people, but I never met one who felt it necessary to explain which number vacation home they had visited.

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Re: 110 hour week

Postby BarbellDreams » Tue Mar 31, 2015 5:59 pm

BiglawAssociate wrote:
scottidsntknow wrote:
BiglawAssociate wrote:I married rich, but I still paid off my own loans before I got married. Why would my spouse pay off my loans? My parents live in a 1mm dollar house and make six figures - they ain't rich. They paid for college but not grad school.

My in laws do buy us shit though - pay for part of our apartment, offered to buy us a new car, etc. etc. If we move out of NYC, they will likely buy us a house (they already have multiple houses).

I'm not sure why you think any of this is trolling.

Because people don't talk about this kind of stuff so openly.

You're a shining example of money not buying class.


And your point is? What is "class" anyway - another bullshit notion like "prestige." Intangible stuff don't mean anything to me.

Having money and no class >>>> being poor with "class" (whatever that is)

Also maybe you don't know enough people with money. Lots of them talk about how to make money/investments/their vacation homes, etc. etc. "What did you do this weekend?" "Oh I visited my second vacation home this weekend". "My parents are buying me a condo in NYC, etc."


Please tell me this is some fantasy of yours for an online persona and you don't actually act like this IRL...

itbdvorm
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Re: 110 hour week

Postby itbdvorm » Tue Mar 31, 2015 7:17 pm

ruski wrote:I don't think thats it. No one minds working hard. We've all been working hard our whole life. It's working *unnecessarily* hard where most of the complaints come from. After getting forwarded emails days later, asked to completely redo assignments because senior associate didn't take 3 min to think about what format he wanted in, going through 8 drafts of a one page issues list, creating stupid charts and summaries and summary of summaries that literally no one ever looks at, and doing all this at 2 am, getting thrown under the bus for other people mistakes, you better believe my attitude will be to do the bare minimum I need to do just get by


But...who are you to decide what is or is not necessary?

Again - realize all of the things you're saying are "bad". And shouldn't happen in an ideal scenario.

But as a junior, your job is to make the people above you look better - to help them stay sane and get their work done. Your job is to deal with unrealistic deadlines from people who have their own unrealistic deadlines. Look at the implications of the items you suggest above for example for me, as a super stressed out senior:

- "getting forwarded emails days later" - I will try to forward my juniors something as soon as I can / remember / think to do so. But sometimes I'm in a meeting all day. Or I first get something from the client days later myself. Or the client has said "don't do anything on this until Tuesday."
- "asked to completely redo assignments because senior associate didn't take 3 min to think about what format he wanted in" - well crap. I was in a meeting all day and forwarded the email immediately so it didn't get lost in the shuffle and I didn't give great direction because I was in the midst of a negotiation on something else and figured better to get you going then not send until tomorrow and have you complain about that, so at least you could get started and think about these issues now rather than later.
- "going through 8 drafts of a one page issues list" - it's not yet right. it doesn't incorporate tax comments. it was written in the tone for the internal team at the client, then the senior team at the client, now being sent over to the other side, so needs further adjustments. we just learned about this new issue. just because you think it's good enough doesn't mean it IS good enough.
- "creating stupid charts and summaries and summary of summaries that literally no one ever looks at" - how do you know? Diligence memos get looked at. By lots of people. And, importantly, YOU are helping the firm by showing a paper trail that we told the client about an issue. And you're helping yourself (because hey, you sent it in a chart upstairs, the senior should have realized its importance).
- "doing all this at 2 am" - when do you want to do it? bid is due tomorrow. that's what we're getting paid for.

There's a difference - there really is - between being upset that the job sucks sometimes and thinking you're entitled to something better. You're not. That's the job. If you want the money, this is the deal you're making for yourself. And being pissy about it actually robs YOU of the best thing about it (even better than the money) - the human capital you can build in yourself by being a good teammate and coworker. That pays dividends down the line far in excess of the cash.

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nyyankskid
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Re: 110 hour week

Postby nyyankskid » Tue Mar 31, 2015 7:22 pm

exitoptions wrote:
BiglawAssociate wrote:
scottidsntknow wrote:
BiglawAssociate wrote:I married rich, but I still paid off my own loans before I got married. Why would my spouse pay off my loans? My parents live in a 1mm dollar house and make six figures - they ain't rich. They paid for college but not grad school.

My in laws do buy us shit though - pay for part of our apartment, offered to buy us a new car, etc. etc. If we move out of NYC, they will likely buy us a house (they already have multiple houses).

I'm not sure why you think any of this is trolling.

Because people don't talk about this kind of stuff so openly.

You're a shining example of money not buying class.


And your point is? What is "class" anyway - another bullshit notion like "prestige." Intangible stuff don't mean anything to me.

Having money and no class >>>> being poor with "class" (whatever that is)

Also maybe you don't know enough people with money. Lots of them talk about how to make money/investments/their vacation homes, etc. etc. "What did you do this weekend?" "Oh I visited my second vacation home this weekend". "My parents are buying me a condo in NYC, etc."


I know quite a few wealthy people, but I never met one who felt it necessary to explain which number vacation home they had visited.


++++++++1

Anonymous User
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Re: 110 hour week

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Mar 31, 2015 8:22 pm

Again, I think people are looking at it way too black and white. The guy who wants to draw some slight boundaries, have some balance, and just put in his 2,100 or 2,200 hours isn't just ditching out when his team needs him. He is totally willing to put in that late night if the team needs him, or to work that weekend if the workflow suddenly spikes on a case. He just isn't going out of his way to find extra things to do when he is already relatively busy. He isn't doing poor work, coasting, sitting around, or screwing up. No reason that guy can't be doing great work, building good relationships, staying busy, and learning. Yet at the same time, he will have some time to himself to stay sane and unwind.

Anonymous User
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Re: 110 hour week

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Mar 31, 2015 8:24 pm

itbdvorm wrote:- "doing all this at 2 am" - when do you want to do it? bid is due tomorrow. that's what we're getting paid for.

There's a difference - there really is - between being upset that the job sucks sometimes and thinking you're entitled to something better. You're not. That's the job. If you want the money, this is the deal you're making for yourself. And being pissy about it actually robs YOU of the best thing about it (even better than the money) - the human capital you can build in yourself by being a good teammate and coworker. That pays dividends down the line far in excess of the cash.



this is not quite right.

i worked in biglaw for 4 years and since day 1 i set limits for how much i would work. regardless of how busy it was, or how many other associates wanted to stay until 3:00am to get docs out, i would come in and leave when i wanted (my average day was 10:30-8:00).

this is what i considered to be a fair trade-off. anything more than that for me was not worth it and i'd rather not have a job than work another hour. it's employment at will and nobody can force you to work more than you're willing - you can always quit once it becomes not worth it. eventually i decided even 10:30-8 was too much for me and i went in-house and got the same job as every other biglawyer.

what the bolded ignores is that the firm continued to pay me and keep me on board for 4 years despite doing less than anyone. that's because i was still earning my paycheck (in their eyes) billing 1600 hours or whatever. we're paid for as long as the firm thinks we're an asset. being a "super asset" or whatever gets you nowhere. everyone gets the same paycheck and anyone who does more than the bare minimum is a chump.

also, the whole idea that killing yourself billing 2300 pays off down the road or that you become a better lawyer is ridiculous. there's no super elite epiphany you have in hour 2200. it's the same exact crap you were doing in hour 500.

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rpupkin
Posts: 3864
Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:32 pm

Re: 110 hour week

Postby rpupkin » Tue Mar 31, 2015 8:25 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Again, I think people are looking at it way too black and white. The guy who wants to draw some slight boundaries, have some balance, and just put in his 2,100 or 2,200 hours isn't just ditching out when his team needs him. He is totally willing to put in that late night if the team needs him, or to work that weekend if the workflow suddenly spikes on a case. He just isn't going out of his way to find extra things to do when he is already relatively busy. He isn't doing poor work, coasting, sitting around, or screwing up. No reason that guy can't be doing great work, building good relationships, staying busy, and learning. Yet at the same time, he will have some time to himself to stay sane and unwind.

I don't think anything itbdvorm wrote is inconsistent with this.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273234
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: 110 hour week

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Mar 31, 2015 8:37 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
itbdvorm wrote:- "doing all this at 2 am" - when do you want to do it? bid is due tomorrow. that's what we're getting paid for.

There's a difference - there really is - between being upset that the job sucks sometimes and thinking you're entitled to something better. You're not. That's the job. If you want the money, this is the deal you're making for yourself. And being pissy about it actually robs YOU of the best thing about it (even better than the money) - the human capital you can build in yourself by being a good teammate and coworker. That pays dividends down the line far in excess of the cash.



this is not quite right.

i worked in biglaw for 4 years and since day 1 i set limits for how much i would work. regardless of how busy it was, or how many other associates wanted to stay until 3:00am to get docs out, i would come in and leave when i wanted (my average day was 10:30-8:00).

this is what i considered to be a fair trade-off. anything more than that for me was not worth it and i'd rather not have a job than work another hour. it's employment at will and nobody can force you to work more than you're willing - you can always quit once it becomes not worth it. eventually i decided even 10:30-8 was too much for me and i went in-house and got the same job as every other biglawyer.

what the bolded ignores is that the firm continued to pay me and keep me on board for 4 years despite doing less than anyone. that's because i was still earning my paycheck (in their eyes) billing 1600 hours or whatever. we're paid for as long as the firm thinks we're an asset. being a "super asset" or whatever gets you nowhere. everyone gets the same paycheck and anyone who does more than the bare minimum is a chump.

also, the whole idea that killing yourself billing 2300 pays off down the road or that you become a better lawyer is ridiculous. there's no super elite epiphany you have in hour 2200. it's the same exact crap you were doing in hour 500.


Honestly, that sounds like a pretty good plan if you can somehow create a workflow that allows it. I was initially slow for work, got myself on a few matters to fill up the time, and then they all started ballooning up. So now I'm stuck billing 220 or 230 hours a month. My goal is to cool it a bit as soon as some of these cases calm down some. Again, I have no intention of coasting, since I take pride in doing good work and being there for my case teams. But failing to draw any boundaries and always mentally (or physically) being there is starting to take a real toll on my mental health.

dixiecupdrinking
Posts: 3139
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 2:39 pm

Re: 110 hour week

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Tue Mar 31, 2015 8:42 pm

Part of the problem is that the biglaw model -- the value proposition they seem to provide -- is to get everything done, perfectly, yesterday, for a ton of money. Getting things good enough for 99% of cases takes a whole lot less work than for 99.9% of cases and the extra work it takes to get there is usually "wasted," in retrospect. Getting things done yesterday means you're doing this typically irrelevant work at really inconvenient times.

To some extent this is just the nature of the beast. Biglaw isn't a place where you can take the most efficient path to "good enough." But it gets very frustrating on a personal level, regardless. And the attitude of perfectionism and neuroticism it can breed in senior attorneys can be really toxic, and manifests even at those times when, maybe, good enough really is good enough.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273234
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: 110 hour week

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Mar 31, 2015 8:52 pm

dixiecupdrinking wrote:Part of the problem is that the biglaw model -- the value proposition they seem to provide -- is to get everything done, perfectly, yesterday, for a ton of money. Getting things good enough for 99% of cases takes a whole lot less work than for 99.9% of cases and the extra work it takes to get there is usually "wasted," in retrospect. Getting things done yesterday means you're doing this typically irrelevant work at really inconvenient times.

To some extent this is just the nature of the beast. Biglaw isn't a place where you can take the most efficient path to "good enough." But it gets very frustrating on a personal level, regardless. And the attitude of perfectionism and neuroticism it can breed in senior attorneys can be really toxic, and manifests even at those times when, maybe, good enough really is good enough.


Like I said, its starting to take a serious toll on my mental health, so I've recently begun seeing a therapist. And she says she sees tons of lawyers who come to her with job-related anxiety and/or depression. She said that she did some reading into the subject, and said that, if you combine the job-related depression, anxiety, substance abuse, etc. and the self-selection of very neurotic and "odd" individuals who go the lawyer route, her estimate was that approximately 75-80% of people in the field have some sort of mental issue, disorder, or condition, of varying degrees.

itbdvorm
Posts: 1573
Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:09 am

Re: 110 hour week

Postby itbdvorm » Tue Mar 31, 2015 9:37 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
itbdvorm wrote:- "doing all this at 2 am" - when do you want to do it? bid is due tomorrow. that's what we're getting paid for.

There's a difference - there really is - between being upset that the job sucks sometimes and thinking you're entitled to something better. You're not. That's the job. If you want the money, this is the deal you're making for yourself. And being pissy about it actually robs YOU of the best thing about it (even better than the money) - the human capital you can build in yourself by being a good teammate and coworker. That pays dividends down the line far in excess of the cash.



this is not quite right.

i worked in biglaw for 4 years and since day 1 i set limits for how much i would work. regardless of how busy it was, or how many other associates wanted to stay until 3:00am to get docs out, i would come in and leave when i wanted (my average day was 10:30-8:00).

this is what i considered to be a fair trade-off. anything more than that for me was not worth it and i'd rather not have a job than work another hour. it's employment at will and nobody can force you to work more than you're willing - you can always quit once it becomes not worth it. eventually i decided even 10:30-8 was too much for me and i went in-house and got the same job as every other biglawyer.

what the bolded ignores is that the firm continued to pay me and keep me on board for 4 years despite doing less than anyone. that's because i was still earning my paycheck (in their eyes) billing 1600 hours or whatever. we're paid for as long as the firm thinks we're an asset. being a "super asset" or whatever gets you nowhere. everyone gets the same paycheck and anyone who does more than the bare minimum is a chump.

also, the whole idea that killing yourself billing 2300 pays off down the road or that you become a better lawyer is ridiculous. there's no super elite epiphany you have in hour 2200. it's the same exact crap you were doing in hour 500.


This guy here - not the partner, not the senior associate, not the client - is who you all should be mad at.

Each guy doing just enough to not get fired is another spot that could have been filled with someone who jumps on the grenade so you can go to your friend's birthday party.

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los blancos
Posts: 7117
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:18 pm

Re: 110 hour week

Postby los blancos » Tue Mar 31, 2015 9:39 pm

itbdvorm wrote:This guy here - not the partner, not the senior associate, not the client - is who you all should be mad at.

Each guy doing just enough to not get fired is another spot that could have been filled with someone who jumps on the grenade so you can go to your friend's birthday party.



Cogburn87 wrote:(striver trash)

Internetdan
Posts: 77
Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2015 9:06 pm

Re: 110 hour week

Postby Internetdan » Tue Mar 31, 2015 9:50 pm

so who is posting from their office at 9:50 NYC time right now, and if so what time will you be going home?

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DELG
Posts: 2936
Joined: Thu May 15, 2014 7:15 pm

Re: 110 hour week

Postby DELG » Tue Mar 31, 2015 9:55 pm

itbdvorm wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
itbdvorm wrote:- "doing all this at 2 am" - when do you want to do it? bid is due tomorrow. that's what we're getting paid for.

There's a difference - there really is - between being upset that the job sucks sometimes and thinking you're entitled to something better. You're not. That's the job. If you want the money, this is the deal you're making for yourself. And being pissy about it actually robs YOU of the best thing about it (even better than the money) - the human capital you can build in yourself by being a good teammate and coworker. That pays dividends down the line far in excess of the cash.



this is not quite right.

i worked in biglaw for 4 years and since day 1 i set limits for how much i would work. regardless of how busy it was, or how many other associates wanted to stay until 3:00am to get docs out, i would come in and leave when i wanted (my average day was 10:30-8:00).

this is what i considered to be a fair trade-off. anything more than that for me was not worth it and i'd rather not have a job than work another hour. it's employment at will and nobody can force you to work more than you're willing - you can always quit once it becomes not worth it. eventually i decided even 10:30-8 was too much for me and i went in-house and got the same job as every other biglawyer.

what the bolded ignores is that the firm continued to pay me and keep me on board for 4 years despite doing less than anyone. that's because i was still earning my paycheck (in their eyes) billing 1600 hours or whatever. we're paid for as long as the firm thinks we're an asset. being a "super asset" or whatever gets you nowhere. everyone gets the same paycheck and anyone who does more than the bare minimum is a chump.

also, the whole idea that killing yourself billing 2300 pays off down the road or that you become a better lawyer is ridiculous. there's no super elite epiphany you have in hour 2200. it's the same exact crap you were doing in hour 500.


This guy here - not the partner, not the senior associate, not the client - is who you all should be mad at.

Each guy doing just enough to not get fired is another spot that could have been filled with someone who jumps on the grenade so you can go to your friend's birthday party.

(is the chump)




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