110 hour week

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KidStuddi
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Re: 110 hour week

Postby KidStuddi » Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:17 pm

smallfirmassociate wrote:It's not really about what you can tolerate with flourish and self-congratulation.

It's about the other parts of your life being fruitful, interesting, and healthy enough that you don't want to work as much as you can tolerate.

Obviously for a person who has no other life whatsoever and loves work more than sex, the beach, and funnel cakes combined, you might as well work 3000 hours per year. Yet that position is neither anything to brag about nor anything applicable to most others. I wouldn't judge and say a person whose life is so devoid of other pleasure that working 3000 hours seems fine other than to say that I'm glad I'm not that person. Out of all the things that add richness to my life, work is but a small portion.

TL;DR: In a way, I can respect the "I can tolerate a lot, and I can work a lot, and this is all fine, so stop whining" viewpoint, but I'm glad I'm not the one holding it.


Not sure if this was directed at me, but to be clear, "my viewpoint wasn't it's fine quite whining." I agree with what you said pretty much entirely. I was the one that said the OP who worked 110 hours in a week (and made a thread to bitch about it) needs to learn how to set limits and manage his time if he doesn't want that lifestyle because no one else was going to do it for him.

The popular sentiment seemed to be saying shit like "that's what you signed up for" rather than telling OP you don't actually have to work yourself to the point you're worried about your physical safety.

More than a few people suggested I didn't know what I was talking about because I don't know what it's like to work in a demanding corporate practice. That last post was meant to be more of a "Nope, I do actually know. Still telling you it's possible to say no and set limits."

The whole stupid 2800 hours thing got started when I used examples of my colleagues that choose to bill insane hours even though the average associate bills far less as an example of how people do it to themselves. People seemed to think I made 2800 up as an impossibly high number.

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JohannDeMann
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Re: 110 hour week

Postby JohannDeMann » Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:24 pm

Screenshots are tight. Your schedule is really flexible though due to being single. This won't exist forever.

KM2016
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Re: 110 hour week

Postby KM2016 » Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:33 pm

JohannDeMann wrote:Screenshots are tight. Your schedule is really flexible though due to being single. This won't exist forever.


This. I couldn't agree more. The single associates I work with find it very manageable. I, on the other hand, have a SO who has a very, very flexible schedule and only works ~30-40 hours a week (think therapist, dentist, professor). Although my SO is understanding of my schedule, they get lonely when I don't get home until anywhere from 7-10pm most nights and it weighs heavily on you and your SO. Can't wait to jump in-house.

Anonymous User
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Re: 110 hour week

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:36 pm

Can someone comment on what it's like to work at a busy firm w/out a billable requirement? I know you're always expected to work, but when there isn't work, is there any anxiety about doing anything?

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Re: 110 hour week

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:40 pm

OP here. This thread has come a long way and I have come to love it.
KidStuddi, props for boldly laying it out there. I think people just take issue when you decide based on your experience that other people must be doing something wrong.
I think this thread highlights the range of variables that can drastically impact individual experiences: corp v lit, firm culture, partner preferences, senior associate stress, regional culture, practice group, etc. The scary part is that for a wide-eyed 2L hoping for a decent job, at least half of those are difficult or impossible to perceive or predict.

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Re: 110 hour week

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:42 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Can someone comment on what it's like to work at a busy firm w/out a billable requirement? I know you're always expected to work, but when there isn't work, is there any anxiety about doing anything?


I work at a firm without a billable requirement. So, no, there's no anxiety for me when I'm quiet - I really don't care about my yearly total, other than just wanting to make sure I don't fall behind the pack. I actually really appreciate that aspect. When you have a crazy busy week or month, that distinction is meaningless, but when things are slow, I appreciate not feeling stressed to be busy for the sake of hours alone.

smallfirmassociate
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Re: 110 hour week

Postby smallfirmassociate » Wed Mar 25, 2015 2:46 am

KidStuddi wrote:
smallfirmassociate wrote:It's not really about what you can tolerate with flourish and self-congratulation.

It's about the other parts of your life being fruitful, interesting, and healthy enough that you don't want to work as much as you can tolerate.

Obviously for a person who has no other life whatsoever and loves work more than sex, the beach, and funnel cakes combined, you might as well work 3000 hours per year. Yet that position is neither anything to brag about nor anything applicable to most others. I wouldn't judge and say a person whose life is so devoid of other pleasure that working 3000 hours seems fine other than to say that I'm glad I'm not that person. Out of all the things that add richness to my life, work is but a small portion.

TL;DR: In a way, I can respect the "I can tolerate a lot, and I can work a lot, and this is all fine, so stop whining" viewpoint, but I'm glad I'm not the one holding it.


Not sure if this was directed at me, but to be clear, "my viewpoint wasn't it's fine quite whining." I agree with what you said pretty much entirely. I was the one that said the OP who worked 110 hours in a week (and made a thread to bitch about it) needs to learn how to set limits and manage his time if he doesn't want that lifestyle because no one else was going to do it for him.

The popular sentiment seemed to be saying shit like "that's what you signed up for" rather than telling OP you don't actually have to work yourself to the point you're worried about your physical safety.

More than a few people suggested I didn't know what I was talking about because I don't know what it's like to work in a demanding corporate practice. That last post was meant to be more of a "Nope, I do actually know. Still telling you it's possible to say no and set limits."

The whole stupid 2800 hours thing got started when I used examples of my colleagues that choose to bill insane hours even though the average associate bills far less as an example of how people do it to themselves. People seemed to think I made 2800 up as an impossibly high number.


I follow. The reminder Cliff's notes helped refresh framing and perspective, admittedly.

There is a bit of a disconnect ITT between what was bargained for versus what is healthy. Reminds me of the military. Guys deployed to combat zones easily can log 3000 hours on duty in one year for a fraction of biglaw pay. A lot of that work is less mentally taxing, sure, minus getting shot at, but the point is that a person devoid of distractions (e.g. a life) can handle those hours remarkably easily.

If you are willing to sell your soul for a paycheck, yes, there is something to be said for taking your just desserts. Kind of hard to criticize the deal when you knew or should have known the details at the time or acceptance.

All that being said, it's a bit like a contract of adhesion, so I blame the party with all of the bargaining power for making lives miserable.

KidStuddi
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Re: 110 hour week

Postby KidStuddi » Wed Mar 25, 2015 6:00 am

Anonymous User wrote:OP here. This thread has come a long way and I have come to love it.
KidStuddi, props for boldly laying it out there. I think people just take issue when you decide based on your experience that other people must be doing something wrong.
I think this thread highlights the range of variables that can drastically impact individual experiences: corp v lit, firm culture, partner preferences, senior associate stress, regional culture, practice group, etc. The scary part is that for a wide-eyed 2L hoping for a decent job, at least half of those are difficult or impossible to perceive or predict.


Yup. Probably the best takeaway is that BigLaw isn't as homogenous the unified term "BigLaw" suggests. Also, you're probably fucked if you work for shitty partners.

KidStuddi
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Re: 110 hour week

Postby KidStuddi » Wed Mar 25, 2015 6:10 am

KM2016 wrote:
JohannDeMann wrote:Screenshots are tight. Your schedule is really flexible though due to being single. This won't exist forever.


This. I couldn't agree more. The single associates I work with find it very manageable. I, on the other hand, have a SO who has a very, very flexible schedule and only works ~30-40 hours a week (think therapist, dentist, professor). Although my SO is understanding of my schedule, they get lonely when I don't get home until anywhere from 7-10pm most nights and it weighs heavily on you and your SO. Can't wait to jump in-house.


A limited dating pool is 100% credited as a drawback, but I do manage to date anyway. Last SO actually worked worse hours than I do, so it wasn't really ever a thing for us. We just had 1am wednesday morning dates and what not. Was almost perfect until I recognized the BSC lurking just beneath the surface. Oh and the $300,000 in student loans they didn't mention until like 8 months in.

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BarbellDreams
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Re: 110 hour week

Postby BarbellDreams » Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:26 am

If you think that billing 2500+ hours (assuming no heavy padding) is easy and the schedule that you described is "normal", well, you'd be in the minority. I feel sorry for anyone who has to deal with anything close to that schedule.

I know a dude who bills 2400 in a "bad year", humblebrags (if you can call it that) about how many hours he spends in the office and has woken up to emails at 2 am that he proudly tells people he answered immediately, then got dressed and went over to the firm to work on the project (he smartly chose an apartment across the street from the firm). He is excited that the senior partners appreciate his enthusiasm and a couple apparently have told him he is "partner material" even though he is only in his 3rd year. This dude is the definition of "lives to work". I can't imagine a life like that, I truly don't care how much they pay me. I can't buy time back.

I don't work in biglaw so I make half of what biglaw attorneys make. I have passed up two opportunities from contacts for lateral interviews at biglaw firms that are notorious for working associates to the bone. I just don't care about the money that much. At my current job my attitude is as follows: If I get an email past 8 pm, I'm not even checking it. I don't really care what happens, you can wait until the morning. And no, I'm not coming in early for no reason if there isn't some serious fire to put out. Objectively serious, not "I should do this now so I can do more stuff later" serious. Don't call me on the weekends unless its an emergency, don't expect replies to emails on the weekends unless its an emergency, don't expect me to come in on the weekends unless its an emergency. If you assign me projects that will make me stay in he office until midnight I will literally say: "I can do A or B by tomorrow morning, can't do both. Which one is the bigger priority, I will get to the other one in the morning." I don't live to work, I don't quite understand why some people are actually proud to do that. A buddy of mine hit the jackpot with a biglaw firm that only works him 55-60 hours per week. He needs big congrats, not to be put down cause he doesn't work as hard. Yet he gets snickered at by other biglaw associates cause he doesn't work as many hours or bill as much. This is why this profession sucks.

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Big Shrimpin
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Re: 110 hour week

Postby Big Shrimpin » Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:27 am

poast above re SO/single associate dichotomy is spot on

also, line about 2800 being not that bad or whatever is classic workaholic sociopath

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: 110 hour week

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:29 am

People humblebrag about their high hours because they gain nothing else of value by working them.

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Big Shrimpin
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Re: 110 hour week

Postby Big Shrimpin » Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:41 am

dixiecupdrinking wrote:People humblebrag about their high hours because they gain nothing else of value by working them.



ofs ill never get this

Workaholic: *pops into my office on Friday afternoon* "hey BS! Any plans for the weekend?"

Me: "yeah doing xyz if I don't have to finish this assignment or get bothered over the weekend, you?"

Workaholic: *smugly smiles* "ah, gotta do blah blah on this matter, blah blah on that matter, blah blah on the other matter, you know, living the dream!"

Me: "bummer dude" *pretends to be busy so Workaholic leaves my office*

ya know what, if I don't make partner because workaholic doods billing 2800 make it over my 2000-2400, then so be it, as i will have hopefully lived a more fulfilling life outside of work

if a personal life is the sacrifice for the brass ring, then i dont want it

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Desert Fox
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Re: 110 hour week

Postby Desert Fox » Wed Mar 25, 2015 10:53 am

Big Shrimpin wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:People humblebrag about their high hours because they gain nothing else of value by working them.



ofs ill never get this

Workaholic: *pops into my office on Friday afternoon* "hey BS! Any plans for the weekend?"

Me: "yeah doing xyz if I don't have to finish this assignment or get bothered over the weekend, you?"

Workaholic: *smugly smiles* "ah, gotta do blah blah on this matter, blah blah on that matter, blah blah on the other matter, you know, living the dream!"

Me: "bummer dude" *pretends to be busy so Workaholic leaves my office*

ya know what, if I don't make partner because workaholic doods billing 2800 make it over my 2000-2400, then so be it, as i will have hopefully lived a more fulfilling life outside of work

if a personal life is the sacrifice for the brass ring, then i dont want it


I don't think you can bill your way to partnership, at least not at firms that aren't just lockstep + institutional clients.

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BarbellDreams
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Re: 110 hour week

Postby BarbellDreams » Wed Mar 25, 2015 11:04 am

I think you bill yourself to of counsel. I think you bill yourself to partnership if that billing is done on your own book of clients. I've never heard of anyone making partner that didn't have any of their own clients to bring to the table. Why would the others make you a partner when all you can do is the same as any other senior associate can do? What separates you from the herd is a book of business.

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AVBucks4239
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Re: 110 hour week

Postby AVBucks4239 » Wed Mar 25, 2015 11:29 am

My amateur opinion is that (a) big law isn't homogeneous and your quality of life depends a lot on your partners, and (b) this thread reflects the difference between secondary market big law (KidStuddi) and NYC Big Law (everyone else).

wildhaggis
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Re: 110 hour week

Postby wildhaggis » Wed Mar 25, 2015 11:37 am

Desert Fox wrote:
Big Shrimpin wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:People humblebrag about their high hours because they gain nothing else of value by working them.



ofs ill never get this

Workaholic: *pops into my office on Friday afternoon* "hey BS! Any plans for the weekend?"

Me: "yeah doing xyz if I don't have to finish this assignment or get bothered over the weekend, you?"

Workaholic: *smugly smiles* "ah, gotta do blah blah on this matter, blah blah on that matter, blah blah on the other matter, you know, living the dream!"

Me: "bummer dude" *pretends to be busy so Workaholic leaves my office*

ya know what, if I don't make partner because workaholic doods billing 2800 make it over my 2000-2400, then so be it, as i will have hopefully lived a more fulfilling life outside of work

if a personal life is the sacrifice for the brass ring, then i dont want it


I don't think you can bill your way to partnership, at least not at firms that aren't just lockstep + institutional clients.


Pretty much. The path to partner isn't certainly just to bill, bill, bill. Though your typically overzealous associate may be forgiven for thinking so.

That said, I've occasionally had the misfortune of working with that lowest and most wretched biglaw organism: the "service" partner. I suppose it's possible to bill your way into this pitiful state.

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bretby
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Re: 110 hour week

Postby bretby » Wed Mar 25, 2015 12:03 pm

lacrossebrother wrote:thought this is worth posting:
http://www.ansarada.com/news/moelis-laz ... most-hours



This explains why I find some of the shock and horror at 80 hour work weeks surprising among professionals who at had at least some sense of the demands of the job before they signed on. That said, 110 hours/week, for more than two or three consecutive weeks, would be cause for serious job dissatisfaction

BeenDidThat
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Re: 110 hour week

Postby BeenDidThat » Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:25 am

bretby wrote:
lacrossebrother wrote:thought this is worth posting:
http://www.ansarada.com/news/moelis-laz ... most-hours



This explains why I find some of the shock and horror at 80 hour work weeks surprising among professionals who at had at least some sense of the demands of the job before they signed on. That said, 110 hours/week, for more than two or three consecutive weeks, would be cause for serious job dissatisfaction


What analysts at investment banks do affects how you view lawyers' perspectives on their work hours? Solid.

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sinfiery
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Re: 110 hour week

Postby sinfiery » Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:41 am

Desert Fox wrote:and it doesnt even have to be someone else just taking a long time.

Students, honestly reflect on this question, when was the last time you worked on studying, outlines, reading for 8 hours straight. No facebook, no chatting, no TLSing. You'll all day 16 hour finals cram? How much did you actually work MAYBE 10 hours.


oh fuckohfuck


is the work easy at least?

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: 110 hour week

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Thu Mar 26, 2015 11:23 am

sinfiery wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:and it doesnt even have to be someone else just taking a long time.

Students, honestly reflect on this question, when was the last time you worked on studying, outlines, reading for 8 hours straight. No facebook, no chatting, no TLSing. You'll all day 16 hour finals cram? How much did you actually work MAYBE 10 hours.


oh fuckohfuck


is the work easy at least?

lol. Sometimes.

This is seriously one of the more overlooked issues. It's easy to say "well most people work 8 hours a day so billing 10-12 isn't so bad." If your average person working an 8 hour day had to bill their time, they'd have like 3-4 actually productive hours.

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Big Shrimpin
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Re: 110 hour week

Postby Big Shrimpin » Thu Mar 26, 2015 11:25 am

sinfiery wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:and it doesnt even have to be someone else just taking a long time.

Students, honestly reflect on this question, when was the last time you worked on studying, outlines, reading for 8 hours straight. No facebook, no chatting, no TLSing. You'll all day 16 hour finals cram? How much did you actually work MAYBE 10 hours.


oh fuckohfuck


is the work easy at least?


i think you need to be intuitive, strategic and efficient, but the work is def not mind-bending

just be ready to deal with lots of tediousness and shitty ppl...but that's most jobs I guess

wildhaggis
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Re: 110 hour week

Postby wildhaggis » Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:32 pm

The work is not at all difficult (speaking from a corp perspective). But if that's the case, then why does everyone act like it's so stressful and miserable? Pretty simple: while easy, virtually everything you do is a perverse combination of esoteric, tedious, and urgent.

Esoteric in that you will, at all times, need to keep an eye out for things that seem utterly unintuitive or completely unimportant at first glance, but are actually, somehow, really fucking important. For instance, assume for a moment that you are a first-year corporate associate and someone asks you to do a defined-terms check of a purchase agreement. An important document - nice! They're finally giving you some responsibility, letting you earn all that money you're being paid. You do it, very thoroughly, and feel great about what you just accomplished, albeit a little overwhelmed from all the new jargon. You send along a redline showing your changes. Man, it took a while, but you were really careful and that means you probably did a pretty decent job, right? Wrong. Expect the following reaction for every tiny mistake you either had no clue how to catch or were brushed aside for asking questions about...

Why the fuck did you capitalize the word "law" in Section 6(h)? I don't care if it's a defined term, the "law" we're referencing in 6(h) DOESN'T fit the definition of "Law" in the defined terms section. We spent a lot of time carefully drafting those defined terms and they NEED to be used properly throughout the document. And, wow, why didn't you add ERISA as a defined term in the appendix? I don't care if it isn't actually used as a defined term in the body of the agreement, it's clearly used in the definition of the Employee Benefit Plan defined term. What's your reason for not adding it? This is the stuff you're supposed to catch in a defined-terms check. This is really sloppy work, you need to treat every project like it's going in front of a client. You were brought in to be detail-oriented, how could you miss this stuff? If we can't trust you with something this simple, how can we trust you with something more important? You need to be way more careful in the future.

Your head spins. You go back to recheck the whole document. Your phone rings; it's your girlfriend. She's off work and wants to know what you want to do for dinner. GrubHub, alone, again. It's OK, she says, again. This time, though, she sounds a little more exasperated than the last. This will continue and continue, until it doesn't.

Of course you'd be a little baffled at why that stuff is so important, and angry you can't leave work to go live your life. Well, guess what? This is what you've signed up for. All of that shit is important, despite seeming unnecessarily demanding and nit-picky. And you have to stay until it's right, because they need it now. Combined with the fact that the work often takes hours and is exceedingly boring - since, again, it is time-consuming to catch all of the little things that go into producing polished work product - it can be maddening to stay focused on all of the bizarre shit you need to stay focused on for the amount of time necessary to do it.

So, no, the work is not difficult by nature, or in a vacuum. When put in biglaw context, things are a little more complicated.

itbdvorm
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Re: 110 hour week

Postby itbdvorm » Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:01 pm

wildhaggis wrote:The work is not at all difficult (speaking from a corp perspective). But if that's the case, then why does everyone act like it's so stressful and miserable? Pretty simple: while easy, virtually everything you do is a perverse combination of esoteric, tedious, and urgent.

Esoteric in that you will, at all times, need to keep an eye out for things that seem utterly unintuitive or completely unimportant at first glance, but are actually, somehow, really fucking important. For instance, assume for a moment that you are a first-year corporate associate and someone asks you to do a defined-terms check of a purchase agreement. An important document - nice! They're finally giving you some responsibility, letting you earn all that money you're being paid. You do it, very thoroughly, and feel great about what you just accomplished, albeit a little overwhelmed from all the new jargon. You send along a redline showing your changes. Man, it took a while, but you were really careful and that means you probably did a pretty decent job, right? Wrong. Expect the following reaction for every tiny mistake you either had no clue how to catch or were brushed aside for asking questions about...

Why the fuck did you capitalize the word "law" in Section 6(h)? I don't care if it's a defined term, the "law" we're referencing in 6(h) DOESN'T fit the definition of "Law" in the defined terms section. We spent a lot of time carefully drafting those defined terms and they NEED to be used properly throughout the document. And, wow, why didn't you add ERISA as a defined term in the appendix? I don't care if it isn't actually used as a defined term in the body of the agreement, it's clearly used in the definition of the Employee Benefit Plan defined term. What's your reason for not adding it? This is the stuff you're supposed to catch in a defined-terms check. This is really sloppy work, you need to treat every project like it's going in front of a client. You were brought in to be detail-oriented, how could you miss this stuff? If we can't trust you with something this simple, how can we trust you with something more important? You need to be way more careful in the future.

Your head spins. You go back to recheck the whole document. Your phone rings; it's your girlfriend. She's off work and wants to know what you want to do for dinner. GrubHub, alone, again. It's OK, she says, again. This time, though, she sounds a little more exasperated than the last. This will continue and continue, until it doesn't.

Of course you'd be a little baffled at why that stuff is so important, and angry you can't leave work to go live your life. Well, guess what? This is what you've signed up for. All of that shit is important, despite seeming unnecessarily demanding and nit-picky. And you have to stay until it's right, because they need it now. Combined with the fact that the work often takes hours and is exceedingly boring - since, again, it is time-consuming to catch all of the little things that go into producing polished work product - it can be maddening to stay focused on all of the bizarre shit you need to stay focused on for the amount of time necessary to do it.

So, no, the work is not difficult by nature, or in a vacuum. When put in biglaw context, things are a little more complicated.


Great post.

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Desert Fox
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Re: 110 hour week

Postby Desert Fox » Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:10 pm

Lit varies between easy as fuck stuff like doc review and much harder stuff. But when you rush easy stuff you make little stupid mistake and then someone is angry and thinks you are retarded.




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