C/O 2014 NLJ 250 Numbers

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BigZuck
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Re: C/O 2014 NLJ 250 Numbers

Postby BigZuck » Mon Mar 02, 2015 8:53 pm

misanthrope wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
bearsfan23 wrote:
BigZuck wrote:GULC is an overpriced trap with a lying administration and a joke of an admissions office. The school is a trainwreck and seriously needs to pull it together.

Also, there's something wrong with that misanthrope dude


Seriously? Again, you go to Texas. If GULC is a "trap" school, what does that make your school?


Again, I'm not sure I understand your point.

UT is much cheaper across the board. I also don't think people overestimate what UT gets you nearly to the extent that people overestimate GULC.

It's too expensive. And people overestimate what they will get out of the school. That's why GULC is a trap. I don't think either of those things apply to UT.


Except UT's biglaw placement doesn't really work without Texas ties, now does it?


Depends on where you fall in the class. Anecdotal, but I know people in the top 15% or so that got big law out of state, and people in the top 3rd without strong Texas ties that got TX big law. People around median who got big law usually had Texas ties I think.

I'm not sure what point you were trying to make. Was it that only Texans get big law from UT?

Also I'm not sure what UT has to do with GULC being a dumpster fire.

I'm sure there are lots of ways to get my jimmies rustled but knocking UT certainly ain't it. I have almost 8000 posts so it shouldn't be that hard to piece together guys. If you think I'm an unapologetic UT fanboy then you're not reading close enough.

Happy to talk about UT's faults though, lets do it.

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JCougar
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Re: C/O 2014 NLJ 250 Numbers

Postby JCougar » Mon Mar 02, 2015 8:57 pm

BigZuck wrote:I'm not really worried about bearsfan because I know he's just trying to develop a schtick and God Bless him he's doing his best but I am worried about misanthrope


I'm worried about misantrhope, too. If he can't take criticism without telling people to kill themselves and inventing a bunch of strawmen, he's not going to last long in this profession.

And judging from his posts, his job may be the only thing he has going for him--because it's certainly not his personality.

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rpupkin
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Re: C/O 2014 NLJ 250 Numbers

Postby rpupkin » Mon Mar 02, 2015 9:01 pm

JCougar wrote:
I'm worried about misantrhope, too. If he can't take criticism without telling people to kill themselves and inventing a bunch of strawmen, he's not going to last long in this profession.

If only that were true.....

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JCougar
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Re: C/O 2014 NLJ 250 Numbers

Postby JCougar » Mon Mar 02, 2015 9:03 pm

rpupkin wrote:
JCougar wrote:
I'm worried about misantrhope, too. If he can't take criticism without telling people to kill themselves and inventing a bunch of strawmen, he's not going to last long in this profession.

If only that were true.....


Haha, yeah, I fucked that one up.

misanthrope
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Re: C/O 2014 NLJ 250 Numbers

Postby misanthrope » Mon Mar 02, 2015 9:03 pm

BigZuck:

Well yes, kind of; for people without Texas ties, I think it's markedly harder to land biglaw anywhere from anywhere in the class. I think you'd agree with that. GULC, on the other hand, places primarily into DC and NY, where ties are not really important (that, plus GULC probably is more advantageous in getting back to secondary markets with which you do have ties). So, for someone choosing between the two without Texas ties (and still desirous of biglaw), UT would become a much less economically rational choice than its pure LST numbers would indicate. I don't really care about knocking UT; I think it's an awesome school, but one whose awesomeness is limited by the applicant's home state.

misanthrope
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Re: C/O 2014 NLJ 250 Numbers

Postby misanthrope » Mon Mar 02, 2015 9:24 pm

JCougar wrote:To sum up why people are pissed at GeorgeTTTown on here, take one look at this chart:

Schools with Highest Number of Grads Not in Big Law

Total Grads (2013) - Grads in Biglaw (250+) - Fed clerks. Basically, the worst offenders in terms of leaving grads unable to pay off loans:

1. Cooley (1137)
2. Florida Coastal (560)
3. New York Law School (528)
4. American (454)
5. Suffolk (450)
6. John Marshall )432)
7. Brooklyn (424)
8. George Washington (423)
9. Miami (394)
10. South Texas (386)
11. Georgetown (367)
12. Cardozo (351)
13. Loyola Marymount (347)
14. Charlotte (346)
15. New England (339)


Despite its prestige, the school is still dumping about 350 underemployed grads onto an already over-saturated market each year. So yes, it deserves to be singled out especially because of it's overly-large class size.


Thank you for unequivocally proving that GULC has a large class size. You're REALLY SMART. Also, why does this list exclude firms of 100+? And I'm totally sure that all those GULC grads are doing exactly the same kind of NON-BIGLAW work as South Texas, Cardozo and New England! Also, is the whole quarter of the class that is doing PI or Gov work having a lot of trouble paying off loans through guaranteed LRAP?

JCougar, have you ever read about a concept called the reductive fallacy?

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cookiejar1
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Re: C/O 2014 NLJ 250 Numbers

Postby cookiejar1 » Tue Mar 03, 2015 4:03 am

This thread has been extremely entertaining. Thank you everyone.

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cron1834
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Re: C/O 2014 NLJ 250 Numbers

Postby cron1834 » Tue Mar 03, 2015 11:36 am

1) GULC has been demonstrably behind the other T14s for a while now, and produces way too many underemployed

2) Unlike my TTT, it's in a really expensive town, stingy AF, and has high tuition

3) Despite these things, GULC has bizarrely enormous admit classes AND brings in a hundred transfers/year

Sorry, but this is fucking terrible. It's obviously a better school than WUSTL or UT for non-regional gigs, but GULC's practices are abhorrent in a way that others aren't. They should be ashamed. You can't say that about the strong regionals.

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Desert Fox
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Re: C/O 2014 NLJ 250 Numbers

Postby Desert Fox » Tue Mar 03, 2015 11:53 am

What would happen if 40% of NYU aimed for DC at OCI?

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Pikappraider
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Re: C/O 2014 NLJ 250 Numbers

Postby Pikappraider » Tue Mar 03, 2015 12:18 pm

Id take UT over GULC all day. Gtown's management is smart though. They've cornered the market on getting huge classes of people to pay sticker or close to it for t14 prestige. Awesome marketing on their end

BigZuck
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Re: C/O 2014 NLJ 250 Numbers

Postby BigZuck » Tue Mar 03, 2015 12:19 pm

cron1834 wrote:1) GULC has been demonstrably behind the other T14s for a while now, and produces way too many underemployed

2) Unlike my TTT, it's in a really expensive town, stingy AF, and has high tuition

3) Despite these things, GULC has bizarrely enormous admit classes AND brings in a hundred transfers/year

Sorry, but this is fucking terrible. It's obviously a better school than WUSTL or UT for non-regional gigs, but GULC's practices are abhorrent in a way that others aren't. They should be ashamed. You can't say that about the strong regionals.

Right.

I mean, just because GULC has better job placement than the schools ranked below it and might even have equal placement to other T14s doesn't mean the school isn't a trainwreck.

I think it's dumb when people say that job placement wise it's closer to Vandy/UT/UCLA/USC etc. than to Cornell/NU etc. But that doesn't mean it's not the redheaded sibling of the T14 or that it shouldn't be mercilessly mocked for its TTTness

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JCougar
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Re: C/O 2014 NLJ 250 Numbers

Postby JCougar » Tue Mar 03, 2015 12:51 pm

misanthrope wrote:Thank you for unequivocally proving that GULC has a large class size. You're REALLY SMART. Also, why does this list exclude firms of 100+? And I'm totally sure that all those GULC grads are doing exactly the same kind of NON-BIGLAW work as South Texas, Cardozo and New England! Also, is the whole quarter of the class that is doing PI or Gov work having a lot of trouble paying off loans through guaranteed LRAP?

JCougar, have you ever read about a concept called the reductive fallacy?


Thing is, despite GTTTown's individual percentages, they're still sending 367 underemployed graduates into an overly-saturated field. Even if some of these people get PSLF, as you suggest, that debt will still have to be forgiven. Someone's got to pay for the forgiveness of their loans. I'm sure an already-strained federal budget will just be thrilled to absorb the cost of forgiving a decade of GeorgeTTTown grads with $300,000 of debt.

350 * 300,000 * 10 years is over a billion dollars for people to sit in a class learning how to survive getting cold called. Let's try and justify that expense over the expense of rebuilding poor neighborhoods, building a new commuter rail line, or investing in medical/scientific research.

And no, the shitlaw gigs that GeorgeTTTown grads get if they strike out at OCI are no different than the shitlaw gigs anyone else gets. Now some of these people might work their way into a decent job, but also some that got Biglaw will be eliminated after 1-2 years, making little progress on their debt.

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jbagelboy
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Re: C/O 2014 NLJ 250 Numbers

Postby jbagelboy » Tue Mar 03, 2015 1:36 pm

Desert Fox wrote:What would happen if 40% of NYU aimed for DC at OCI?


(Shh)

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Capitol_Idea
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Re: C/O 2014 NLJ 250 Numbers

Postby Capitol_Idea » Tue Mar 03, 2015 1:49 pm

Another GULC student here chiming in with anecdata/wounded pride (please tell me someone here understands sarcasm):

There is a lot of unfounded hate on GULC. And there is a lot of very well-founded hate on GULC.

Individually, going to GULC is not a sure-fire way to get a BigLaw job. However, it is not a 'dumpster fire' or 'trainwreck' for a number of reasons. One is the strong public interest focus that draws away potential BigLaw participants, and the other, more potent reason is the evening division. GULC is the only t14 school with evening students - many of whom do not go into BigLaw or even try. Some seem to think that a JD will help them in their current government or private sector job - I think they're wrong, but that's a different argument for a different day. Do these number differences make GULC the equivalent of Harvard, or even UVA? No. Of Course not. God, no. But it does put GULC solidly in the range of other schools int he t14 who don't get similar flak.

Institutionally, GULC sends WAY too many students into the field. Harvard can get away with that because it's Harvard. Cooley can get away with it because there are a lot of people who ingested lead paint chips as children. GULC should know better and it's awful that they've let it get to this point. GULC does a lot of other stuff that is annoying: lots of admin staff, overpaying faculty, etc. - but I don't think this is unique to GULC (I don't know - I've only been to one school. Any of you TLS'ers somehow been privy to the inner workings of more than one school?)

GULC has problems like a lot of other schools. GULC students take a risk like any other law school students except for YHS. Is GULC's risk somehow at a point where it hits some arbitrary line and crosses the threshold into 'dumpster fire?' I don't think so, but maybe we just define terms differently and agree on the substantive problems.

I'm just hoping all this 'where you went to school' nonsense blows over by the time I'm in a firm and can be judged on things like the quality of my work. Somebody please help preserve this bubble of innocence.

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Capitol_Idea
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Re: C/O 2014 NLJ 250 Numbers

Postby Capitol_Idea » Tue Mar 03, 2015 1:54 pm

The funny thing is that, if all else was equal, but Cornell sat at the 14th position consistently, or Northwestern, or anybody else, it would be the butt of jokes forever. This is GULC's lot in life in t14 snobbery (which is not to say it doesn't deserve ridicule for a NUMBER of things) - this is basic psychology on in-group/out-group bias.

Haters, in fact, gonna hate.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: C/O 2014 NLJ 250 Numbers

Postby Tiago Splitter » Tue Mar 03, 2015 1:58 pm

zacharus85 wrote:The funny thing is that, if all else was equal, but Cornell sat at the 14th position consistently, or Northwestern, or anybody else, it would be the butt of jokes forever. This is GULC's lot in life in t14 snobbery (which is not to say it doesn't deserve ridicule for a NUMBER of things) - this is basic psychology on in-group/out-group bias.

Haters, in fact, gonna hate.

People don't hate on Georgetown because it sits 14th

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runinthefront
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Re: C/O 2014 NLJ 250 Numbers

Postby runinthefront » Tue Mar 03, 2015 2:04 pm

Desert Fox wrote:What would happen if 40% of NYU aimed for DC at OCI?


I think a good chunk of that 40% would definitely strike out, even from NYU, bringing down their biglaw numbers. But this also raises the question--if the employment rate can be explained away by students gunning for DC and failing--of who is to be blamed for GULC's current numbers: CSO, for letting kids at median & below target DC over NYC, or the students at GULC for not realizing how competitive the DC market is and fucking up their bids. Right?

Then again DF, your point could (and probably did) have just gone over my head though.

I do think GULC is a fine institution at the right price, but the practice of admitting ~90 transfer students every year, knowing that you can't place all of them in decent employment outcomes while charging them sticker is a pretty abhorrent practice.

This brings up another question: is it possible that the Georgetown transfer class is what is really dragging on its big law employment rate?
Last edited by runinthefront on Tue Mar 03, 2015 2:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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JCougar
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Re: C/O 2014 NLJ 250 Numbers

Postby JCougar » Tue Mar 03, 2015 2:04 pm

zacharus85 wrote:The funny thing is that, if all else was equal, but Cornell sat at the 14th position consistently, or Northwestern, or anybody else, it would be the butt of jokes forever. This is GULC's lot in life in t14 snobbery (which is not to say it doesn't deserve ridicule for a NUMBER of things) - this is basic psychology on in-group/out-group bias.

Haters, in fact, gonna hate.


I do think Cornell would look just as bad, if not worse, if it were sending people to DC instead of NYC. But also, Cornell's class size is less than half that of GULC.

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Capitol_Idea
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Re: C/O 2014 NLJ 250 Numbers

Postby Capitol_Idea » Tue Mar 03, 2015 2:08 pm

For sure - like I said, there are a TON of aggravating shit GULC does. My point was that even if it DIDN'T do everything that it does wrong, it'd still get ragged on because of its precarious position as the bottom of the t14. Groups always push down the lower members of their order to boost themselves higher - we see this in history all over the place: Civil Rights and Women's Rights, for instance, used to be very closely linked. When Civil Rights began picking up steam, they dumped their involvement with Women's Rights and sought legislation/rulings that would preserve their advantages to the exclusion of women. In more modern times, Gay and Lesbian groups began to more heavily distance themselves from bisexual and trans people once they started making significant progress in legislation/rulings/public favor.

The point is that people need to pick on someone - it's human nature. Nothing GULC does short of some miraculous climb in the rankings over a long period of time (and there aren't enough HJs in the world for that to happen) will change its ridicule. Doesn't mean it shouldn't change. Just that it won't matter.

Oh, also the transfer rate is ridiculous. FFS, Georgetown.

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Pikappraider
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Re: C/O 2014 NLJ 250 Numbers

Postby Pikappraider » Tue Mar 03, 2015 2:21 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
zacharus85 wrote:The funny thing is that, if all else was equal, but Cornell sat at the 14th position consistently, or Northwestern, or anybody else, it would be the butt of jokes forever. This is GULC's lot in life in t14 snobbery (which is not to say it doesn't deserve ridicule for a NUMBER of things) - this is basic psychology on in-group/out-group bias.

Haters, in fact, gonna hate.

People don't hate on Georgetown because it sits 14th


Didn't it jump to 13 for a couple years anyway? During that time, cornell smashed them in big law placement from the 14 spot. My biggest problem with gtown is how stingy they are with money

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cron1834
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Re: C/O 2014 NLJ 250 Numbers

Postby cron1834 » Tue Mar 03, 2015 2:35 pm

I don't think anyone is seriously arguing that GULC isn't preftigious or that you get something less than world class education. It's their practices that are abhorrent. Matriculating 600 kids/year + a hundred transfers with their underemployment rate is totally unjustifiable. My school has reduced class size by 20% over three years and takes 20% of the transfers GULC does. We have some placement issues, as does UT, but at least admissions isn't actively compounding them.

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Capitol_Idea
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Re: C/O 2014 NLJ 250 Numbers

Postby Capitol_Idea » Tue Mar 03, 2015 2:38 pm

Good point - that too. Oh man are they stingy with money. Damn, I think I'm starting to understand the hate a little better.

But come on - did anyone think Cornell and GULC were really tied? Anyone? Did we acquire books for our library at a faster rate than Cornell that year? I'm talking like GULC would have to get into t10 and stay there for like 5+ years. Which will never happen. See previous comments re: HJs and the sufficient lack thereof.

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Re: C/O 2014 NLJ 250 Numbers

Postby BigZuck » Tue Mar 03, 2015 3:14 pm

"The students are failing the school! The school isn't failing the students!" is easily my number 1 favorite refrain, way ahead of "Self-selection!" "This is the year everything turns around just you wait!" "You're an elitist!" and "Your school sucks!"

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Pikappraider
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Re: C/O 2014 NLJ 250 Numbers

Postby Pikappraider » Tue Mar 03, 2015 3:25 pm

cron1834 wrote:I don't think anyone is seriously arguing that GULC isn't preftigious or that you get something less than world class education. It's their practices that are abhorrent. Matriculating 600 kids/year + a hundred transfers with their underemployment rate is totally unjustifiable. My school has reduced class size by 20% over three years and takes 20% of the transfers GULC does. We have some placement issues, as does UT, but at least admissions isn't actively compounding them.


I agree with this. It's obviously a great school. Hell, I almost went there but for the awful (read: nonexistent) scholarship package. Got way more at higher ranked schools and they wouldn't budge

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JCougar
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Re: C/O 2014 NLJ 250 Numbers

Postby JCougar » Tue Mar 03, 2015 4:02 pm

cron1834 wrote:I don't think anyone is seriously arguing that GULC isn't preftigious or that you get something less than world class education. It's their practices that are abhorrent. Matriculating 600 kids/year + a hundred transfers with their underemployment rate is totally unjustifiable. My school has reduced class size by 20% over three years and takes 20% of the transfers GULC does. We have some placement issues, as does UT, but at least admissions isn't actively compounding them.


The thing is, we all know why Georgetown is doing what it's doing. It needs to make up for its lack of endowment previously. As a result, it's flooding an already terrible market with tons debt-soaked students, and admitting a shit-ton of transfer students that all pay sticker. So this convenient-for-Georgetown economic externality is born by both the Georgetown students that strike out at OCI as well as all other students in the job market at similarly-ranked schools.

It's not the only one that engages in these tactics. WUSTL admits a ton of transfers itself, and GWU is almost the same as GeorgeTTTown only its placement is even worse. But as far as the extent to which each school does it, Georgetown is on par with a lot of TTTs--regardless of the fact that it places like 40% of its class into Biglaw.

It's hard to blame them 100%, because this is just the way they have decided to play the rankings arms race--which is costing almost every single law student--even the ones that go to HYS and get biglaw have to still grind away to pay off the ridiculous debt at firms with attrition rates of over 50% at the 5-year mark. The ultimate problem is that the "rules of the game" encourage this socially costly and wasteful behavior. And the referees, such as the ABA Section on Legal Education and the US Government, are doing nothing to stop it--and instead actively encouraging it.




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