Biglaw Income Partner Taking Qs Forum

[Anonymous User]

Relationship based questions for you:

1) I know you say you have a wife/kids. How common is it for people to still be married once they were senior associates/income partners?

2) You mentioned that some people left because they wanted to start families. Do you feel like it was feasible to find someone/get married while working biglaw?

I would say most people who had a wife and kids and made it to senior/income were still married. I can only think of one person who had issues but the issues existed at the junior level and maybe even before starting at the firm.

It seems like you could meet someone while working but the person would need to understand your schedule and be on board with it. I have known a handful of people who have gotten married while working here and at other biglaw firms. IT is probably more difficult just because meeting someone is probably harder than like the college environment and you work more hours than most. But it's certainly possible. In fact my best friend met and got married while working at a V5 in NYC.

[Anonymous User]

Separate post for separate realm of questions:

Of your peers at other firms (or I guess the people that you knew that went to different firms right out of law school): Was your firm outside the norm? Or is your firm "typical" in the sense of culture/quality.

I obviously know there is a difference between the Lathams of the world and the MTOs of the world, but trying to get a sense of your firm's culture and whether it is "typical."

I think firm culture here is that if you are driven, you get to kind of make your own career. For example, I really like section 16 and exchange act reporting so I was able to get like maybe 80% of all the reporting work that comes in the door here. Mostly because others hate it or think its stupid/boring, but I put my name out there within the firm, did it well, and partners just started dumping it on me. Plus I convinced current clients, as like a 3rd year, to let me draft their proxies, which was (a) a form of business development that most would not think of that is actually pretty lucrative, and (b) not something most clients typically would go for without a push because it can be pretty pricey. And no partner ever stopped me or said anything negative about it, like go through the channels or whatever. The culture is very entrepreneurial. That could be a practice group thing but I'm not so sure.

Also, regarding other firms, I think it really depends on practice group and mentors/partners. At the end of the day, one partner can really screw your career over, or so I have been told. I think the culture within my group is not typical.

[Anonymous User]

1. How would a background as a military officer (within special operations forces, to be exact) be viewed by most firms? Is it possible one could be pigeonholed because of his /that background, or would it be viewed somewhat favorably?
2. Ties into the above question, would that background help better explain one's age during the hiring process? And provided one had received a T6 degree, prior to joining the military, would that degree lose worth as time went on (in other words, would that individual's law degree be viewed as being somewhat lesser than a recent graduate when hiring?)?

So just to be clear, you have a law degree from a top school and then went to the special operations forces and now want to work in biglaw? Background will be interesting and not viewed poorly, I do not think anyone would discriminate against you during the interview process. If your grades are good then it will be fine. The one problem will be why did you get a law degree then go to the service and now want to come back out? Should have a good answer for that.

[skers]

We get mixed info about the breakdown of people who are asked to leave before 6-7 years in and those that just move for other opportunities on their own, what would you say the breakdown has been in your experience? For the most part of people able to stay 6-7+ years if they can stand big law, more of a mix, or what? I know since you started in 07 or so that might skew things a bit.

[mikes82]

1. How would a background as a military officer (within special operations forces, to be exact) be viewed by most firms? Is it possible one could be pigeonholed because of his /that background, or would it be viewed somewhat favorably?
2. Ties into the above question, would that background help better explain one's age during the hiring process? And provided one had received a T6 degree, prior to joining the military, would that degree lose worth as time went on (in other words, would that individual's law degree be viewed as being somewhat lesser than a recent graduate when hiring?)?

So just to be clear, you have a law degree from a top school and then went to the special operations forces and now want to work in biglaw? Background will be interesting and not viewed poorly, I do not think anyone would discriminate against you during the interview process. If your grades are good then it will be fine. The one problem will be why did you get a law degree then go to the service and now want to come back out? Should have a good answer for that.

I appreciate the reply, thank you.

I have an explanation, but I'd rather not share it on an open forum. I hope you can understand. Regardless, would you venture to say that potential employers would be interested in that transition in particular?

Also, just to confirm, most law firms wouldn't be dismayed by the fact that I had graduated some years earlier, correct?

I have a few more questions, if you could answer them, it would be much appreciated.

-In your experience, is it fairly common to see incoming associates with military backgrounds? If so, what background did they typically have?

-At your firm, on average, how many years does it take to make equity partner? And what qualities would you say are imperative when it comes to making equity partner?

-What is the average age of most equity partners where you work?

-Excuse me, but how great is the disparity in pay between income/non-equity partners and equity partners at your firm? What would you say most income partners are taking home and how does that compare to the equity partners? Is there anyone at your firm making high 7's, possibly low 8's? If you don't want to provide figures, I completely understand.

-How was your work/life balance when you first started, and how is it now? Did your job hinder your relationship with your wife and children?

-If you had any advice for someone who sought to make partner, what would it be and why?

I may have a few questions later, or I might not. Either way, I just wanted to say thank you again for taking the time out to do this.

[Anonymous User]

We get mixed info about the breakdown of people who are asked to leave before 6-7 years in and those that just move for other opportunities on their own, what would you say the breakdown has been in your experience? For the most part of people able to stay 6-7+ years if they can stand big law, more of a mix, or what? I know since you started in 07 or so that might skew things a bit.

I answered this but now my reply is missing but I will just summarize: the firm is good about letting you know if you will make income partner but essentially they start telling you around the fifth year. So you have a few years to figure it out. You make income after 6 or 7 years. Most get to the 6th year associate level before getting income the following year. On review at your 6th year associate transition, they pretty much tell you that you are getting partner the following year if you stick around. Most but not all that stick it out to that point will stay around.

I would say that most people leave on their own before the 6-7 year range but i think maybe a third are pushed toward leaving. The firm really wants everyone to stick it out to the 5-6 year mark, in my experience.

[Anonymous User]

1. How would a background as a military officer (within special operations forces, to be exact) be viewed by most firms? Is it possible one could be pigeonholed because of his /that background, or would it be viewed somewhat favorably?
2. Ties into the above question, would that background help better explain one's age during the hiring process? And provided one had received a T6 degree, prior to joining the military, would that degree lose worth as time went on (in other words, would that individual's law degree be viewed as being somewhat lesser than a recent graduate when hiring?)?

So just to be clear, you have a law degree from a top school and then went to the special operations forces and now want to work in biglaw? Background will be interesting and not viewed poorly, I do not think anyone would discriminate against you during the interview process. If your grades are good then it will be fine. The one problem will be why did you get a law degree then go to the service and now want to come back out? Should have a good answer for that.

I appreciate the reply, thank you.

I have an explanation, but I'd rather not share it on an open forum. I hope you can understand. Regardless, would you venture to say that potential employers would be interested in that transition in particular?

Also, just to confirm, most law firms wouldn't be dismayed by the fact that I had graduated some years earlier, correct?

I have a few more questions, if you could answer them, it would be much appreciated.

-In your experience, is it fairly common to see incoming associates with military backgrounds? If so, what background did they typically have?

-At your firm, on average, how many years does it take to make equity partner? And what qualities would you say are imperative when it comes to making equity partner?

-What is the average age of most equity partners where you work?

-Excuse me, but how great is the disparity in pay between income/non-equity partners and equity partners at your firm? What would you say most income partners are taking home and how does that compare to the equity partners? Is there anyone at your firm making high 7's, possibly low 8's? If you don't want to provide figures, I completely understand.

-How was your work/life balance when you first started, and how is it now? Did your job hinder your relationship with your wife and children?

-If you had any advice for someone who sought to make partner, what would it be and why?

I may have a few questions later, or I might not. Either way, I just wanted to say thank you again for taking the time out to do this.

I think it could raise some questions about how committed to practicing but if you have a good explanation then ok. You will need a cover letter for sure to explain it because you might get screened out. Have you passed the bar, that will help.

Most incoming associates do not have military backgrounds, I think it is more rare than common.

Average age of equity partner. I really do not know. We are a little younger here than most. It takes like 10 years to equity I would guess, on average. It is very difficult to get equity here. I have explained the traits in this thread already and don't want to rehash but you can find them easy enough. The income disparity is huge between income and equity partners. We have some partners you are making over 5 million, and it is common knowledge in the biglaw circle. Try abovethelaw.com for more info on that. Advice for making partner is also peppered in this thread already.

My job has gotten in the way with my family a few times but I have an understanding wife who gets it and knew what she was getting into. The kids don't understand sometimes and that hurts but honestly, my firm is not big on face time so I don't miss too many marquee events. I end up working really late for it and miss out on a great deal of sleep sometimes, as I have described earlier in this thread. Biglaw does not kill your family, people kill their own families (figuratively speaking) by the choices they make while working in biglaw. No one forces you to stay once the issues start piling up and you have to choose what's more important or find a way to make both work.

[mikes82]

1. How would a background as a military officer (within special operations forces, to be exact) be viewed by most firms? Is it possible one could be pigeonholed because of his /that background, or would it be viewed somewhat favorably?
2. Ties into the above question, would that background help better explain one's age during the hiring process? And provided one had received a T6 degree, prior to joining the military, would that degree lose worth as time went on (in other words, would that individual's law degree be viewed as being somewhat lesser than a recent graduate when hiring?)?

So just to be clear, you have a law degree from a top school and then went to the special operations forces and now want to work in biglaw? Background will be interesting and not viewed poorly, I do not think anyone would discriminate against you during the interview process. If your grades are good then it will be fine. The one problem will be why did you get a law degree then go to the service and now want to come back out? Should have a good answer for that.

I appreciate the reply, thank you.

I have an explanation, but I'd rather not share it on an open forum. I hope you can understand. Regardless, would you venture to say that potential employers would be interested in that transition in particular?

Also, just to confirm, most law firms wouldn't be dismayed by the fact that I had graduated some years earlier, correct?

I have a few more questions, if you could answer them, it would be much appreciated.

-In your experience, is it fairly common to see incoming associates with military backgrounds? If so, what background did they typically have?

-At your firm, on average, how many years does it take to make equity partner? And what qualities would you say are imperative when it comes to making equity partner?

-What is the average age of most equity partners where you work?

-Excuse me, but how great is the disparity in pay between income/non-equity partners and equity partners at your firm? What would you say most income partners are taking home and how does that compare to the equity partners? Is there anyone at your firm making high 7's, possibly low 8's? If you don't want to provide figures, I completely understand.

-How was your work/life balance when you first started, and how is it now? Did your job hinder your relationship with your wife and children?

-If you had any advice for someone who sought to make partner, what would it be and why?

I may have a few questions later, or I might not. Either way, I just wanted to say thank you again for taking the time out to do this.

I think it could raise some questions about how committed to practicing but if you have a good explanation then ok. You will need a cover letter for sure to explain it because you might get screened out. Have you passed the bar, that will help.

Most incoming associates do not have military backgrounds, I think it is more rare than common.

Average age of equity partner. I really do not know. We are a little younger here than most. It takes like 10 years to equity I would guess, on average. It is very difficult to get equity here. I have explained the traits in this thread already and don't want to rehash but you can find them easy enough. The income disparity is huge between income and equity partners. We have some partners you are making over 5 million, and it is common knowledge in the biglaw circle. Try abovethelaw.com for more info on that. Advice for making partner is also peppered in this thread already.

My job has gotten in the way with my family a few times but I have an understanding wife who gets it and knew what she was getting into. The kids don't understand sometimes and that hurts but honestly, my firm is not big on face time so I don't miss too many marquee events. I end up working really late for it and miss out on a great deal of sleep sometimes, as I have described earlier in this thread. Biglaw does not kill your family, people kill their own families (figuratively speaking) by the choices they make while working in biglaw. No one forces you to stay once the issues start piling up and you have to choose what's more important or find a way to make both work.

Screened out?

and Yes, I've passed the bar.

[Cobretti]

1. How would a background as a military officer (within special operations forces, to be exact) be viewed by most firms? Is it possible one could be pigeonholed because of his /that background, or would it be viewed somewhat favorably?
2. Ties into the above question, would that background help better explain one's age during the hiring process? And provided one had received a T6 degree, prior to joining the military, would that degree lose worth as time went on (in other words, would that individual's law degree be viewed as being somewhat lesser than a recent graduate when hiring?)?

You should probably check out the Veterans' Thread. I don't know of anyone that has your timeline but it should still be a good place to talk to other veterans about biglaw hiring, etc.

[PariSiamo]

Did you attend UChicago? What is your general impression of UChicago grads/would you have any advice specific to a future UChicago student?

[06102016]

..

[Anonymous User]

Is OP still around?

[Anonymous User]

OP is back around if there are any additional questions. To update, I am still an income partner and have been told that chances are not great that I will make equity. Have a few options but still just kind of hanging around to see what happens.

[juzam_djinn]

OP is back around if there are any additional questions. To update, I am still an income partner and have been told that chances are not great that I will make equity. Have a few options but still just kind of hanging around to see what happens.

Thanks for returning to answer more q's! Without giving too many details, would you mind discussing what your options are?

[unlicensedpotato]

OP is back around if there are any additional questions. To update, I am still an income partner and have been told that chances are not great that I will make equity. Have a few options but still just kind of hanging around to see what happens.

Sorry to hear that but I'm sure you have lots of good options. Good luck going forward and thanks for your (hopefully continuing) insights.

[Anonymous User]

This was asked in another post, but I'm interested in your take. What is your view on GPAs on resumes?

[quikpitch]

Thanks for doing this OP. I think this is a question that anyone could answer, but since you're thinking a little bit about exit options:

It seems that exit options for corporate lawyers are either 1. go in house or 2. head to another firm. Are there any sort of public interest jobs available for corporate lawyers? Obviously those might include a massive pay cut, but if you were looking to end your career by just taking it easy for a while are there any sort of avenues available?

You mentioned earlier that you used to be interested in public policy. Would it even be realistic at this point for you to go to a legal services clinic and do some litigation if you wanted to? (For a very small salary). You've been at a top firm for longer than most people - I feel like if you had the desire to do some public interest you could be valuable. But I'm wondering if that is realistic at all.

[Anonymous User]

This was asked in another post, but I'm interested in your take. What is your view on GPAs on resumes?

As far as I know - from recruiting here - they are necessary whether they are on the resume or someone sifts through the transcripts. As silly as it sounds, I have my GPA on my resume and use it to submit to other places.

[Anonymous User]

OP is back around if there are any additional questions. To update, I am still an income partner and have been told that chances are not great that I will make equity. Have a few options but still just kind of hanging around to see what happens.

Thanks for returning to answer more q's! Without giving too many details, would you mind discussing what your options are?

Another firm with a two year partner commitment to see if I fit in and can bring in business. Leaving law firms altogether and starting a real estate investment company (mostly small scale commercial). Not interested in going in house but have had multiple offers to do so.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks for doing this OP. I think this is a question that anyone could answer, but since you're thinking a little bit about exit options:

It seems that exit options for corporate lawyers are either 1. go in house or 2. head to another firm. Are there any sort of public interest jobs available for corporate lawyers? Obviously those might include a massive pay cut, but if you were looking to end your career by just taking it easy for a while are there any sort of avenues available?

You mentioned earlier that you used to be interested in public policy. Would it even be realistic at this point for you to go to a legal services clinic and do some litigation if you wanted to? (For a very small salary). You've been at a top firm for longer than most people - I feel like if you had the desire to do some public interest you could be valuable. But I'm wondering if that is realistic at all.

Yes I do think public interest is available as an exit option but it involves more of who your connections are rather than just sending resumes out. I think organizations are in need of talent and like you said would be very cool to do but with obvious pay cut. At this point, I am probably just going to see how the bonus cycle goes and do my review in the next month or so then make my next move. I do have a nice offer for another firm and I have enough cash saved to make some decent investments.

[Anonymous User]

Do you see a correlation between law-school grades and work product? Do grades actually matter in a candidate, or is it mostly for show and just because you can demand it?

I understand not wanting to hire "slow" people, but I don't believe there's necessarily a strong correlation between that and grades. Maybe you can enlighten me; feel free to be brutally honest based on your experience.

[oblig.lawl.ref]

OP is back around if there are any additional questions. To update, I am still an income partner and have been told that chances are not great that I will make equity. Have a few options but still just kind of hanging around to see what happens.

Thanks for returning to answer more q's! Without giving too many details, would you mind discussing what your options are?

Another firm with a two year partner commitment to see if I fit in and can bring in business. Leaving law firms altogether and starting a real estate investment company (mostly small scale commercial). Not interested in going in house but have had multiple offers to do so.

I'm curious why you wouldn't want to go in-house?

[Anonymous User]

Do you see a correlation between law-school grades and work product? Do grades actually matter in a candidate, or is it mostly for show and just because you can demand it?

I understand not wanting to hire "slow" people, but I don't believe there's necessarily a strong correlation between that and grades. Maybe you can enlighten me; feel free to be brutally honest based on your experience.

The truth is that I have no clue. I don't think there is a meaningful correlation but we and other firms have stupid strict GPA cutoffs. Grades are more a correlation for if you try hard enough and really all you have to do in biglaw is try hard enough to stay employed for a few years and be profitable for the partners.

[Anonymous User]

OP is back around if there are any additional questions. To update, I am still an income partner and have been told that chances are not great that I will make equity. Have a few options but still just kind of hanging around to see what happens.

Thanks for returning to answer more q's! Without giving too many details, would you mind discussing what your options are?

Another firm with a two year partner commitment to see if I fit in and can bring in business. Leaving law firms altogether and starting a real estate investment company (mostly small scale commercial). Not interested in going in house but have had multiple offers to do so.

I'm curious why you wouldn't want to go in-house?

For my practice area it is kind of boring. I guess if someone offered me GC of a startup or something like that I would go but otherwise, I do not want to run one company's reporting/proxy, etc. and do an occasional financing. Being a generalist is not really my thing - I like to get in the weeds and be an "expert" - for what it is worth.

[Anonymous User]

Do you see a correlation between law-school grades and work product? Do grades actually matter in a candidate, or is it mostly for show and just because you can demand it?

I understand not wanting to hire "slow" people, but I don't believe there's necessarily a strong correlation between that and grades. Maybe you can enlighten me; feel free to be brutally honest based on your experience.

The truth is that I have no clue. I don't think there is a meaningful correlation but we and other firms have stupid strict GPA cutoffs. Grades are more a correlation for if you try hard enough and really all you have to do in biglaw is try hard enough to stay employed for a few years and be profitable for the partners.

Thanks for the honesty and insight!