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I understand that the vast majority of 2L summer associates at V100 law firms are offered full-time associate positions at the end of the summer. What about 1L summer associates? Are they virtually guaranteed a 2L position at the same firm, assuming they don't screw up and the economy doesn't tank? What if their first-year grades are poor?

cesium wrote:I understand that the vast majority of 2L summer associates at V100 law firms are offered full-time associate positions at the end of the summer. What about 1L summer associates? Are they virtually guaranteed a 2L position at the same firm, assuming they don't screw up and the economy doesn't tank? What if their first-year grades are poor?

No.

No. I got an offer but the other 1L summer did not, and he was ranked #2 in the class.

yeah, definitely not. in fact, i'd say 1l sas are rather risky

mephistopheles wrote:yeah, definitely not. in fact, i'd say 1l sas are rather risky

wut

anecdotal, but i've witnessed a rather high percentage of no offers and that takes a firm off the table

takes a firm off the table? really?

It is really dependent on the firm. Some firms have programs that do not give return offers as a rule (more the case with diversity programs, etc..), other firms offer similar percentages of their 1Ls offers as they do their 2Ls. Some OCI interviewers may ask about whether you received an offer, but upon the experience of myself and others I know most of them will not even ask or care.

fats provolone wrote:takes a firm off the table? really?

Yeah this is silly. It's still a great place to be in if you get a 1L SA. Definitely not risky at all, best case scenario you have no pressure during oci with an offer in hand and worst case you just do oci like a normal 2L.

mephistopheles wrote:anecdotal, but i've witnessed a rather high percentage of no offers and that takes a firm off the table

I remember people floated variants of this type of advise when I was applying to 1L SA's. I would ignore it. Sure you might not get an offer from your 1L firm -- it's definitely not a 100% offer rates situation especially in secondary markets, but not receiving a permanent offer as a 1L is not a black mark. Cravath was the only firm to ask me directly whether or not I'd received an offer to return; when most OCI firms see a 1L SA, it reflects positively and if they have a concern it's that you would have to split or that you would only return to that firm.

Now there is some geography/market logic here, but that's a different story

No. Not even close.

I don't know the exact numbers, but I wager the 1L SA => 2L SA rate is far lower than the 2L SA => job offer rate.

2L SAs aren't even close to guaranteed job offers either though. Plenty of extremely smart SAs get no offered because they're unbearable. Our class valedictorian got no-offered at a V100 after he argued with a partner on what the black letter law said, and this very forum has a few well-known trolls who were unsurprisingly no-offered.

Most people with 1L SAs get 2L SAs, but correlation does not imply causation (which OP's question seems to lean towards). The reasons that people get 1L SAs tend to overlap heavily with the reasons they get 2L SAs (school, grades, good interview skills). While having had a 1L SA might help you get a 2L SA, firms are going to be paying attention to what they always pay attention to.

Further, as mentioned above, getting no-offered by your 1L firm for a 2L position doesn't seem to be as damaging to future prospects as getting no-offered by your 2L firm.

ETA: Obviously, if you do well at the 1L firm, they're going to want you back for 2L for a couple reasons: (1) it gives them more time to butter you up for a permanent offer to the exclusion of other firms and (2) they'll have a level of confidence that you won't screw something up during your 2L SA that they might not have with other 2L applicants.

some 1Ls at my firm have gotten 2L offers to return and eventual permanent offers.

some 1Ls at my firm have gotten 2L offers, then fucked it up second summer and not gotten a permanent offer.

some 1Ls at my firm were not asked back after 1L summer.

"It depends."

If you got 1L SA offers from two BigLaws, you said sorry to one of them and they said hoping to have you for 2L SA.
My questions were:
1. Do big law firms normally have same program for 1L and 2L SAs, so that they do NOT need someone for two summers (even if you are so good)?
2. Do you try hard to stay in same firm for both 1L and 2L?
Thanks

Stevoman wrote:2L SAs aren't even close to guaranteed job offers either though. Plenty of extremely smart SAs get no offered because they're unbearable. Our class valedictorian got no-offered at a V100 after he argued with a partner on what the black letter law said, and this very forum has a few well-known trolls who were unsurprisingly no-offered.

LOL

In IP, yes. Every firm I've interviewed with for a 1L SA indicated their impression was that I would be back 2L summer, or at least split my 2L summer between them and another firm. IP firms take 1Ls so they can bring in great talent early on in hopes of training them and then hiring them for post-grad. Obviously if you really mess up or are lazy you might not get an offer to return, but that rarely happens with the IP firms I've spoken to. For other firms it may be different, but that's how I've seen it in IP.

Anonymous User wrote:In IP, yes. Every firm I've interviewed with for a 1L SA indicated their impression was that I would be back 2L summer, or at least split my 2L summer between them and another firm. IP firms take 1Ls so they can bring in great talent early on in hopes of training them and then hiring them for post-grad. Obviously if you really mess up or are lazy you might not get an offer to return, but that rarely happens with the IP firms I've spoken to. For other firms it may be different, but that's how I've seen it in IP.

I can't speak for IP in biglaw/full-service firms, but this is especially true in boutiques, which tend to specialize in a particular technology area. It's very difficult to find the combination of the particular type of engineering they want, and good law school grades. My employer sees people all the time that have great grades but the wrong technology area, or the right technology area but bad grades.

Myself and a lot of my friends were all over the V30 this past summer and everyone received offers to return. No one even knew of other 1LSAs at their firms who were not asked back.

Obviously it varies firm to firm, but the firms who bring in 1Ls generally don't do so for shits and giggles. It basically provides them an inside track on candidates they want for one reason or another (diversity, connections, grades, etc). You can blow it in the same ways you can blow an offer chance as a 2LSA, but the impression I've gotten speaking to the recruiters at my firm and those of my friends is that an offer to return after 2L is yours to lose.

Anonymous User wrote:Myself and a lot of my friends were all over the V30 this past summer and everyone received offers to return. No one even knew of other 1LSAs at their firms who were not asked back.

Obviously it varies firm to firm, but the firms who bring in 1Ls generally don't do so for shits and giggles. It basically provides them an inside track on candidates they want for one reason or another (diversity, connections, grades, etc). You can blow it in the same ways you can blow an offer chance as a 2LSA, but the impression I've gotten speaking to the recruiters at my firm and those of my friends is that an offer to return after 2L is yours to lose.

Credited.

I had the same experience as a 1L at a V10. The impression was as a 1L SA they wanted you back for 2L unless you really tanked. The job was yours to lose.

what about diversity 1Ls though

jbagelboy wrote:

mephistopheles wrote:anecdotal, but i've witnessed a rather high percentage of no offers and that takes a firm off the table

I remember people floated variants of this type of advise when I was applying to 1L SA's. I would ignore it. Sure you might not get an offer from your 1L firm -- it's definitely not a 100% offer rates situation especially in secondary markets, but not receiving a permanent offer as a 1L is not a black mark. Cravath was the only firm to ask me directly whether or not I'd received an offer to return; when most OCI firms see a 1L SA, it reflects positively and if they have a concern it's that you would have to split or that you would only return to that firm.

Now there is some geography/market logic here, but that's a different story

+1. Firms at OCI simply did not care whether I had received an offer to return.