Quitting BigLaw after less than one year

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fats provolone
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Re: Quitting BigLaw after less than one year

Postby fats provolone » Tue Jan 27, 2015 12:37 am

JohannDeMann wrote:Trial is a basically a client will pay any expense excuse so let's just have everyone do 12-18 of billables a day. If you can't find anything to do you can just look over the exhibits for the tenth time to make sure they are right. Juniors do the most admin tasks there are because ther client will pay it.

i dunno i do a lot of admin tasks a year out from trial

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Desert Fox
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Re: Quitting BigLaw after less than one year

Postby Desert Fox » Tue Jan 27, 2015 2:06 am

TatteredDignity wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:For a regular patent case, a lot less than that. But for a trade secret case it can get messy as fuck. It's bet the company lit in a way that patent cases rarely are now.


Makes sense.

Does the partner arguing the motion have to go through a week of education about the case because they don't know anything about it?


Depends on the case, but a lot of time yes.

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Desert Fox
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Re: Quitting BigLaw after less than one year

Postby Desert Fox » Tue Jan 27, 2015 2:18 am

One of the dumbest aspects of biglaw is total fuckup of priority of cost savings. Some dumbass senior associate wanted me to go to a library to use their JSTOR account to pull one article that could be bough for 35 bucks online. Another wanted me to read through 6000 patents but was too cheap to use a search firm.

Because of their pathological demand for perfection, some big lawyers make really stupid choices when choosing between an automated process and a human putting eyes on something. They assume a person looking at something will NEVER fuck it up.

kaiser
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Re: Quitting BigLaw after less than one year

Postby kaiser » Tue Jan 27, 2015 2:27 am

Desert Fox wrote:One of the dumbest aspects of biglaw is total fuckup of priority of cost savings. Some dumbass senior associate wanted me to go to a library to use their JSTOR account to pull one article that could be bough for 35 bucks online. Another wanted me to read through 6000 patents but was too cheap to use a search firm.

Because of their pathological demand for perfection, some big lawyers make really stupid choices when choosing between an automated process and a human putting eyes on something. They assume a person looking at something will NEVER fuck it up.


I've noted this on many occasions (i.e. the total inability to conduct a thoughtful cost/benefit analysis that balances the marginal benefit of these endeavors vs. the marginal costs). In the pursuit of needless perfection, so much time and money gets wasted.

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mmelittlechicken
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Re: Quitting BigLaw after less than one year

Postby mmelittlechicken » Tue Jan 27, 2015 2:31 am

kaiser wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:One of the dumbest aspects of biglaw is total fuckup of priority of cost savings. Some dumbass senior associate wanted me to go to a library to use their JSTOR account to pull one article that could be bough for 35 bucks online. Another wanted me to read through 6000 patents but was too cheap to use a search firm.

Because of their pathological demand for perfection, some big lawyers make really stupid choices when choosing between an automated process and a human putting eyes on something. They assume a person looking at something will NEVER fuck it up.


I've noted this on many occasions (i.e. the total inability to conduct a thoughtful cost/benefit analysis that balances the marginal benefit of these endeavors vs. the marginal costs). In the pursuit of needless perfection, so much time and money gets wasted.

Inability or lack of incentives?

kaiser
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Re: Quitting BigLaw after less than one year

Postby kaiser » Tue Jan 27, 2015 2:34 am

mmelittlechicken wrote:
kaiser wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:One of the dumbest aspects of biglaw is total fuckup of priority of cost savings. Some dumbass senior associate wanted me to go to a library to use their JSTOR account to pull one article that could be bough for 35 bucks online. Another wanted me to read through 6000 patents but was too cheap to use a search firm.

Because of their pathological demand for perfection, some big lawyers make really stupid choices when choosing between an automated process and a human putting eyes on something. They assume a person looking at something will NEVER fuck it up.


I've noted this on many occasions (i.e. the total inability to conduct a thoughtful cost/benefit analysis that balances the marginal benefit of these endeavors vs. the marginal costs). In the pursuit of needless perfection, so much time and money gets wasted.

Inability or lack of incentives?


I think its more the latter. The billable hour breeds this kind of inefficiency.

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ExBiglawAssociate
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Re: Quitting BigLaw after less than one year

Postby ExBiglawAssociate » Tue Jan 27, 2015 2:51 am

mmelittlechicken wrote:
kaiser wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:One of the dumbest aspects of biglaw is total fuckup of priority of cost savings. Some dumbass senior associate wanted me to go to a library to use their JSTOR account to pull one article that could be bough for 35 bucks online. Another wanted me to read through 6000 patents but was too cheap to use a search firm.

Because of their pathological demand for perfection, some big lawyers make really stupid choices when choosing between an automated process and a human putting eyes on something. They assume a person looking at something will NEVER fuck it up.


I've noted this on many occasions (i.e. the total inability to conduct a thoughtful cost/benefit analysis that balances the marginal benefit of these endeavors vs. the marginal costs). In the pursuit of needless perfection, so much time and money gets wasted.

Inability or lack of incentives?

lol, the greedy assholes who make equity partner know exactly what's going on. they know how to drive associates the exact amount to meet and exceed a case's budget just enough not to piss off the clients

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los blancos
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Re: Quitting BigLaw after less than one year

Postby los blancos » Tue Jan 27, 2015 12:13 pm

Yeah, the incentives are totally fucked. I could write for days about the complete debacle of a doc review I got stuck in, with its database of hilariously broad search terms (literally the equivalent of pulling every single e-mail with the word "problem" in it), thousands of duplicates, and documents that were, at one point, scrambled without any order.

If doc review software really can't effectively weed out duplicates as it currently exists then I'm quitting and going to make millions. So much money is wasted on discovery it makes me cry. Sometimes I think there should basically be a Brady standard for civil lit too.

I actually enjoy this job when I'm doing real work (midlaw/regional biglaw is kind of a mix of big market-style litigation and basically shitlaw so some days are doc review/motions to amend/etc on $multi million cases but other days are depos/ct appearances/draft MSJ in $30k ID case), but I already know I'm not particularly interested in partnership and the perpetual "WHERE DO I GET MY NEXT CLIENT" rat race.

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Re: Quitting BigLaw after less than one year

Postby Desert Fox » Tue Jan 27, 2015 12:40 pm

I agree that it is somethings purposeful inefficiency and outright bill churning. That is certainly why the partners as a whole allow that bullshit.

But plenty of associates just believe that its the only way to do stuff. One of my most egregious experiences was when were are already billing the fuck out of the client and neither of us could bill any more.

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Re: Quitting BigLaw after less than one year

Postby JCougar » Tue Jan 27, 2015 1:01 pm

I can understand the need for perfection in stuff like discovery, pleadings, etc. Once you make the record, there's basically no going back and correcting your fuck up. A lot of cases can turn on one single document, one sentence said by someone at some point, etc.

What I don't understand is when people get bent out of shape about commas being italicized when they should not, etc.

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Re: Quitting BigLaw after less than one year

Postby SFB222 » Tue Jan 27, 2015 2:20 pm

JCougar wrote:I can understand the need for perfection in stuff like discovery, pleadings, etc. Once you make the record, there's basically no going back and correcting your fuck up. A lot of cases can turn on one single document, one sentence said by someone at some point, etc.

What I don't understand is when people get bent out of shape about commas being italicized when they should not, etc.


Because making mistakes about anything suggest that you're mistake-prone and will more likely to make mistakes when they matter. (particularly as a junior when you don't really know what's important and what's not).

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Re: Quitting BigLaw after less than one year

Postby kaiser » Tue Jan 27, 2015 2:29 pm

SFB222 wrote:
JCougar wrote:I can understand the need for perfection in stuff like discovery, pleadings, etc. Once you make the record, there's basically no going back and correcting your fuck up. A lot of cases can turn on one single document, one sentence said by someone at some point, etc.

What I don't understand is when people get bent out of shape about commas being italicized when they should not, etc.


Because making mistakes about anything suggest that you're mistake-prone and will more likely to make mistakes when they matter. (particularly as a junior when you don't really know what's important and what's not).


sorry but perfection and mistake-prone are not mutually exclusive. If that were the case, then everyone is mistake prone. There is a reason that even the most senior and experienced folks have others proofread their work. For example, the senior associate with whom I closely work is a superstar, yet always has me proofread briefs or other important papers. And I always catch a few small errors. And thats precisely why we engage in the practice in the first place, because no one is perfect, and everyone will make minor mistakes here and there. Doesn't make you "mistake-prone"

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fats provolone
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Re: Quitting BigLaw after less than one year

Postby fats provolone » Tue Jan 27, 2015 2:47 pm

kaiser wrote:
SFB222 wrote:
JCougar wrote:I can understand the need for perfection in stuff like discovery, pleadings, etc. Once you make the record, there's basically no going back and correcting your fuck up. A lot of cases can turn on one single document, one sentence said by someone at some point, etc.

What I don't understand is when people get bent out of shape about commas being italicized when they should not, etc.


Because making mistakes about anything suggest that you're mistake-prone and will more likely to make mistakes when they matter. (particularly as a junior when you don't really know what's important and what's not).


sorry but perfection and mistake-prone are not mutually exclusive. If that were the case, then everyone is mistake prone. There is a reason that even the most senior and experienced folks have others proofread their work. For example, the senior associate with whom I closely work is a superstar, yet always has me proofread briefs or other important papers. And I always catch a few small errors. And thats precisely why we engage in the practice in the first place, because no one is perfect, and everyone will make minor mistakes here and there. Doesn't make you "mistake-prone"

ya he has you proofread because even though he is a " superstar" he still has to give the impression to his superiors that he catches every minute detail. because lawyers are deranged

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Desert Fox
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Re: Quitting BigLaw after less than one year

Postby Desert Fox » Tue Jan 27, 2015 4:07 pm

The real problem is that lawyers hold everyone else to a higher standard than they hold themselves.

When you fuck up it's a mistake or a typo. when someone else fucks up is a sign they are incompetent. One of my bosses who is pickiest about typos makes kind of a lot them himself.

Also, I don't think

Because making mistakes about anything suggest that you're mistake-prone and will more likely to make mistakes when they matter.


is all that accurate if you are talking generally. Yea, the guy who makes typos will probably make typos when it matters. But that doesn't mean he can't craft a better argument that the guy who never makes a typo. Everyone has strengths and weaknesses.

The most disgusting part of the whole thing is that big law firms don't hire dedicated proofreaders anymore.

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Re: Quitting BigLaw after less than one year

Postby wert3813 » Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:18 am

Desert Fox wrote:
The most disgusting part of the whole thing is that big law firms don't hire dedicated proofreaders anymore.

This is bizarre to me. Hire a bunch of english/journalism majors who want "work experience" before planning on going to law school. Give them a 3 week course in the bluebook, local rules, and any firm writing beliefs/choices/king shitboomers preferences. Save tons of money. Or is that the whole "no incentive to save money thing?"

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los blancos
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Re: Quitting BigLaw after less than one year

Postby los blancos » Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:41 am

Why bill the client $x for a proofreader when you can bill the client $4x by having a junior associate do it?

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Re: Quitting BigLaw after less than one year

Postby ExBiglawAssociate » Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:42 am

los blancos wrote:Why bill the client $x for a proofreader when you can bill the client $48x by having a junior associate do it?

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Re: Quitting BigLaw after less than one year

Postby wert3813 » Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:58 am

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:
los blancos wrote:Why bill the client $x for a proofreader when you can bill the client $48x by having a junior associate do it?

Right. No incentive to save money. Crazy to me that in 2015 the incentives for US legal providers are often not aligned with those of whom they are providing services.

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Re: Quitting BigLaw after less than one year

Postby Desert Fox » Wed Jan 28, 2015 2:07 am

los blancos wrote:Why bill the client $x for a proofreader when you can bill the client $4x by having a junior associate do it?


Because clients are MAF when you send them shit with typos. Associates will still do their proof reading plus will have someone as a backstop.

I can and do have document service proof it. But RR Donely bros suck monkey cock.

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Re: Quitting BigLaw after less than one year

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Wed Jan 28, 2015 11:07 am

The number of tasks I've been asked to do that someone else (an accountant, investigator, proofreader...) could do better, faster, and more cheaply is mindboggling.

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los blancos
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Re: Quitting BigLaw after less than one year

Postby los blancos » Wed Jan 28, 2015 11:36 am

wert3813 wrote:
Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:
los blancos wrote:Why bill the client $x for a proofreader when you can bill the client $48x by having a junior associate do it?

Right. No incentive to save money. Crazy to me that in 2015 the incentives for US legal providers are often not aligned with those of whom they are providing services.


Yeah I mean GCs are definitely trying to squeeze costs but billing for time creates such a fundamentally flawed incentive structure no matter how honest or efficient an atty tries to be.

Alternative fee arrangements are all the rage right now but even then clients seem to like those more for predictability than cost saving.

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Re: Quitting BigLaw after less than one year

Postby smallfirmassociate » Wed Jan 28, 2015 4:12 pm

It's just about holding someone accountable. You can't yell at a software program. Well, you can, but it's not as rewarding as breaking the spirits of special snowflakes.

I once had a boss in a gov't job who would have me pull reports, and then manually review the results in a meticulous fashion. And I was like, "Then why pull the reports in the first place..." Same thing.

mmelittlechicken wrote:
kaiser wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:One of the dumbest aspects of biglaw is total fuckup of priority of cost savings. Some dumbass senior associate wanted me to go to a library to use their JSTOR account to pull one article that could be bough for 35 bucks online. Another wanted me to read through 6000 patents but was too cheap to use a search firm.

Because of their pathological demand for perfection, some big lawyers make really stupid choices when choosing between an automated process and a human putting eyes on something. They assume a person looking at something will NEVER fuck it up.


I've noted this on many occasions (i.e. the total inability to conduct a thoughtful cost/benefit analysis that balances the marginal benefit of these endeavors vs. the marginal costs). In the pursuit of needless perfection, so much time and money gets wasted.

Inability or lack of incentives?

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Re: Quitting BigLaw after less than one year

Postby JCougar » Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:07 am

I just read through a consent decree for an $80 million lawsuit litigated in Federal court by both top plaintiff and top defense firms.

I've just been skimming most of it, and there's at least a dozen typos so far.

So much for dat prestige :)

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Re: Quitting BigLaw after less than one year

Postby Lincoln » Thu Jan 29, 2015 10:32 am

Desert Fox wrote:The most disgusting part of the whole thing is that big law firms don't hire dedicated proofreaders anymore.


Not true in the case of my employer, but then our lawyer/staff ratio is totally insane.

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Re: Quitting BigLaw after less than one year

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:23 pm

Is it advisable to leave with 50k of debt and less than 1 year of biglaw lit experience? What are the alternative options available?

T20, LR + Coif if credentials still matter.




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