Quitting BigLaw after less than one year

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Desert Fox
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Re: Quitting BigLaw after less than one year

Postby Desert Fox » Sat Jan 24, 2015 12:22 pm

los blancos wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:." Clerks will proudly talk about discounting entire breifs because of a few typos or miss-cites. .


Who the fuck ARE these people


Even people like DEFG will say shit like this.

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Desert Fox
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Re: Quitting BigLaw after less than one year

Postby Desert Fox » Sat Jan 24, 2015 12:34 pm

I once heard a midlevel chew out a junior for not double spacing after periods. She said everyone on earth knows to do that. I literally told her to go read a book and then check the spacing after a period.

That is the absolute worst part of big law. When superiors treat their own style choices as the correct way and everything else as incorrect.

I wanna go back in time and rape white and cases moms .

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mmelittlechicken
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Re: Quitting BigLaw after less than one year

Postby mmelittlechicken » Sat Jan 24, 2015 12:41 pm

Man, my seniors have all been chill and helpful.

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Re: Quitting BigLaw after less than one year

Postby Desert Fox » Sat Jan 24, 2015 12:46 pm

mmelittlechicken wrote:Man, my seniors have all been chill and helpful.


I think seniors either have the patience of a Buddhist monk or the dead, soulless patience of a death camp functionary.

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Re: Quitting BigLaw after less than one year

Postby mmelittlechicken » Sat Jan 24, 2015 12:54 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
mmelittlechicken wrote:Man, my seniors have all been chill and helpful.


I think seniors either have the patience of a Buddhist monk or the dead, soulless patience of a death camp functionary.

I meant people senior to me generally. I'm probably just lucky.

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Re: Quitting BigLaw after less than one year

Postby SFB222 » Sat Jan 24, 2015 11:16 pm

rpupkin wrote:
SFB222 wrote:I had an epiphany today at work (i'm a fourth year associate): here's what sucks about working at a firm, to meet your hours you pretty much have to work the WHOLE time while you're at work. Day after day, this starts to grind on you and you feel bad about yourself on days you're less efficient--"oh i've been here all day but only billed 4 hours, how??" Anecdotally, I hear that most other jobs aren't like this--rather, you can zone out, chat it up with co-workers, etc. even if you have to be there for a set amount of time.

This is true.

Once I started billing at a law firm, I realized how massively inefficient I was in my prior career. I miss those times.


Yep, miss it dearly...

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Re: Quitting BigLaw after less than one year

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jan 25, 2015 2:52 pm

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:Bro, you know what I'm talking about, though. There are some associates who just demonstrably worse. They take too long to get shit done and their work product is shitty. Or do you work in a firm like SullCrom where everyone is gunning for 100% perfection all the time? A lot of the shitty associates know their work is shitty and they don't give a fuck because they know they are leaving soon to, for example, have a kid or start another job they secretly lined up.

I mean, I personally wouldn't give a fuck if I DIDN'T HAVE TO REDO EVERY FUCKING THING WITH A FEW HOURS NOTICE sometimes and then get blamed for everything (because I refuse to pass blame on to juniors).


Out of curiosity, does "redo" mean that you're re-writing the substance of a motion or brief? Or does it mean that you're substantially editing a motion or brief? Or just adding some stylistic edits?

I'm just trying to figure out what upper levels consider re-writing. I don't typically work with senior associates, my group predominantly requires me to work for partners and that is scary.

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Re: Quitting BigLaw after less than one year

Postby ExBiglawAssociate » Sun Jan 25, 2015 4:01 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:Bro, you know what I'm talking about, though. There are some associates who just demonstrably worse. They take too long to get shit done and their work product is shitty. Or do you work in a firm like SullCrom where everyone is gunning for 100% perfection all the time? A lot of the shitty associates know their work is shitty and they don't give a fuck because they know they are leaving soon to, for example, have a kid or start another job they secretly lined up.

I mean, I personally wouldn't give a fuck if I DIDN'T HAVE TO REDO EVERY FUCKING THING WITH A FEW HOURS NOTICE sometimes and then get blamed for everything (because I refuse to pass blame on to juniors).


Out of curiosity, does "redo" mean that you're re-writing the substance of a motion or brief? Or does it mean that you're substantially editing a motion or brief? Or just adding some stylistic edits?

I'm just trying to figure out what upper levels consider re-writing. I don't typically work with senior associates, my group predominantly requires me to work for partners and that is scary.


The most common practice that makes me think of someone as a shitty junior associate is a failure to meet deadlines. That just compresses my schedule and makes my life even shittier than it already is.

Less frequently, it's a failure to emphasize the arguments that are most important or focusing too much on insignificant minutiae that wastes my time. I end up having to summarize and/or cut out a whole bunch of bullshit so the partner doesn't yell at me for passing on some long-winded piece of crap. If it's too difficult to find the important pieces in your work, you're doing it wrong.

Even less frequently, juniors may have just done a shitty job researching an issue and may reach incorrect conclusions. I've seen this more than once, but it happens very infrequently.

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Re: Quitting BigLaw after less than one year

Postby alicrimson » Sun Jan 25, 2015 9:22 pm

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:Bro, you know what I'm talking about, though. There are some associates who just demonstrably worse. They take too long to get shit done and their work product is shitty. Or do you work in a firm like SullCrom where everyone is gunning for 100% perfection all the time? A lot of the shitty associates know their work is shitty and they don't give a fuck because they know they are leaving soon to, for example, have a kid or start another job they secretly lined up.

I mean, I personally wouldn't give a fuck if I DIDN'T HAVE TO REDO EVERY FUCKING THING WITH A FEW HOURS NOTICE sometimes and then get blamed for everything (because I refuse to pass blame on to juniors).


Out of curiosity, does "redo" mean that you're re-writing the substance of a motion or brief? Or does it mean that you're substantially editing a motion or brief? Or just adding some stylistic edits?

I'm just trying to figure out what upper levels consider re-writing. I don't typically work with senior associates, my group predominantly requires me to work for partners and that is scary.


The most common practice that makes me think of someone as a shitty junior associate is a failure to meet deadlines. That just compresses my schedule and makes my life even shittier than it already is.

Less frequently, it's a failure to emphasize the arguments that are most important or focusing too much on insignificant minutiae that wastes my time. I end up having to summarize and/or cut out a whole bunch of bullshit so the partner doesn't yell at me for passing on some long-winded piece of crap. If it's too difficult to find the important pieces in your work, you're doing it wrong.

Even less frequently, juniors may have just done a shitty job researching an issue and may reach incorrect conclusions. I've seen this more than once, but it happens very infrequently.


This is helpful, thank you. On the missing deadlines point, I frequently find that the people I work for do not give me deadlines. They usually just say, "oh, I need this." When pressed for deadlines, they usually don't really have a time frame (obviously, this isn't the case for filings. Usually, they'll have me get anything that needs to be filed to them 1-3 days before the court deadline). Do you usually give exact deadlines? If not, what do you think is a good rule of thumb for timeliness? Or does it really vary project by project and partner by partner (or senior associate)?

I apologize for so many questions, it's just nice to be able to pick someone else's brain about this stuff.

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ExBiglawAssociate
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Re: Quitting BigLaw after less than one year

Postby ExBiglawAssociate » Sun Jan 25, 2015 11:55 pm

If they don't give you a deadline, ask for one. It's just better to get everyone on the same page.

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Re: Quitting BigLaw after less than one year

Postby Desert Fox » Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:32 am

Juniors should frag midlvels who give deadlines and then start asking for it before deadline.

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Re: Quitting BigLaw after less than one year

Postby kaiser » Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:44 am

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:If they don't give you a deadline, ask for one. It's just better to get everyone on the same page.


+1

Always ask for deadline. Of the few times that I've gotten chewed out, its because I didn't turn in my work product by when the partner wanted it. Yet the partner had never actually told me a timeframe. It was on me to ask, and I should have pressed for that info from the onset. Be honest. Just say you want to know the general timeframe, so that you can properly plan things out and ensure that you have enough time to take care of the project. Any partner/senior associate will get it.

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Re: Quitting BigLaw after less than one year

Postby Desert Fox » Mon Jan 26, 2015 1:10 am

kaiser wrote:
Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:If they don't give you a deadline, ask for one. It's just better to get everyone on the same page.


+1

Always ask for deadline. Of the few times that I've gotten chewed out, its because I didn't turn in my work product by when the partner wanted it. Yet the partner had never actually told me a timeframe. It was on me to ask, and I should have pressed for that info from the onset. Be honest. Just say you want to know the general timeframe, so that you can properly plan things out and ensure that you have enough time to take care of the project. Any partner/senior associate will get it.


Exactly. My wife should know we are out of beer. She deserved the black eye.

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Re: Quitting BigLaw after less than one year

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Mon Jan 26, 2015 8:46 am

My personal favorite is Passive Aggressive Deadline 20 Questions.

Senior associate: "when can you do this by?"
Me: "(reasonable date)"
Senior associate: "mmm... Yeah we really need it sooner than that. When can you do it?"

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Re: Quitting BigLaw after less than one year

Postby aretoodeetoo » Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:32 am

don't quit because your debt will be a problem. i think the most important part of grinding it out is to not abuse substance. easy to do when you hate your job. hard to stop.

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Re: Quitting BigLaw after less than one year

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jan 26, 2015 3:18 pm

fats provolone wrote:
los blancos wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:." Clerks will proudly talk about discounting entire breifs because of a few typos or miss-cites. .


Who the fuck ARE these people

um like every clerk I've ever met?


LOL current federal judicial clerk and I agree on this on to a certain extent. I would not discount the entire brief but I would be very skeptical of it. I hate doing it but I can't help but to distrust every thing in the brief lol. We all make typos all the time so we are all probably guilty of this at some point. However, because the stakes are so high and the margin for error is so small (if you mess up, you just don't get chewed up by your judge, you get torn apart by counsel on either side in subsequent briefings and even worse, you might even end up getting your judge reversed--which is basically a public shaming lol), to see a brief with typos and miss-cites makes me very skeptical of the work product so I basically end up doing their research from scratch, instead of double checking it, which is very annoying and time consuming. Even though you logically understand it should not be a big deal, it is still in the back of your mind and you just can't help it lol.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Mon Jan 26, 2015 3:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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ExBiglawAssociate
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Re: Quitting BigLaw after less than one year

Postby ExBiglawAssociate » Mon Jan 26, 2015 3:21 pm

Let's be clear, though: almost no junior associates are actually drafting briefs. That shit is reserved for more senior attorneys.

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Re: Quitting BigLaw after less than one year

Postby JCougar » Mon Jan 26, 2015 3:35 pm

SFB222 wrote:I had an epiphany today at work (i'm a fourth year associate): here's what sucks about working at a firm, to meet your hours you pretty much have to work the WHOLE time while you're at work. Day after day, this starts to grind on you and you feel bad about yourself on days you're less efficient--"oh i've been here all day but only billed 4 hours, how??" Anecdotally, I hear that most other jobs aren't like this--rather, you can zone out, chat it up with co-workers, etc. even if you have to be there for a set amount of time. To quote Peter Gibbons: "Yeah, I just stare at my desk, but it looks like I'm working. I do that for probably another hour after lunch too, I'd say in a given week I probably only do about fifteen minutes of real, actual, work."

Mmmmmm....that sure would be nice sometimes.


I had a job like this once in a sub-tropical paradise. I was so bored that I couldn't stand it. So then I applied to law school. The rest is obviously history.

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Re: Quitting BigLaw after less than one year

Postby Desert Fox » Mon Jan 26, 2015 5:13 pm

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:Let's be clear, though: almost no junior associates are actually drafting briefs. That shit is reserved for more senior attorneys.


Yea but if some greenhorn clerk who hasn't worked a real job in their life is tossing out the brief for this, do you really think your boss isn't going to pwn your anus for typos.

It's part of the legal culture.

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Re: Quitting BigLaw after less than one year

Postby JCougar » Mon Jan 26, 2015 5:40 pm

I just received a position statement signed by a Biglaw Associate that was no more than 2 pages long, but had like 5 typos on it. It was also submitted with barely-relevant legal theories regarding a case they are probably going to lose (IOW settle). I bet 80% of it was cut n' pasted. I feel like it was just slapped together to bill hours.

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Re: Quitting BigLaw after less than one year

Postby Desert Fox » Mon Jan 26, 2015 5:42 pm

JCougar wrote:I just received a position statement signed by a Biglaw Associate that was no more than 2 pages long, but had like 5 typos on it. It was also submitted with barely-relevant legal theories regarding a case they are probably going to lose (IOW settle). I bet 80% of it was cut n' pasted. I feel like it was just slapped together to bill hours.


raison d'être of biglaw brah.

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Re: Quitting BigLaw after less than one year

Postby Desert Fox » Mon Jan 26, 2015 5:42 pm

I'm not arguing biglaw does perfect no typo work. Just that arbitrarily and capriciously you can get ur anus inverted because of a typo or mistake.

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Re: Quitting BigLaw after less than one year

Postby JCougar » Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:03 pm

Desert Fox wrote:I'm not arguing biglaw does perfect no typo work. Just that arbitrarily and capriciously you can get ur anus inverted because of a typo or mistake.


Everyone does make typos. I've even seen them in unpublished district court opinions.

The stuff that gets passed around gov't is obviously at a whole other level. People here just assume it doesn't matter until the final edits of something being filed in court. Because it basically doesn't.

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AreJay711
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Re: Quitting BigLaw after less than one year

Postby AreJay711 » Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:03 pm

Clerks are poor. Let them play their little games.

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fats provolone
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Re: Quitting BigLaw after less than one year

Postby fats provolone » Mon Jan 26, 2015 8:06 pm

AreJay711 wrote:Clerks are poor. Let them play their little games.

where do you think partners come from




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