Biglaw Salaries going up?

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Mal Reynolds
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Re: Biglaw Salaries going up?

Postby Mal Reynolds » Sat Apr 25, 2015 4:56 pm

Yukos wrote:
Mal Reynolds wrote:
Yukos wrote:I don't know how you look at that chart and don't conclude LA is the place to be.


LA sucks.


The coldest moment of the coldest day of the year in LA is warmer than the high in Chicago today. And it's almost May.


Almost every other part of the city is terrible.

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Yukos
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Re: Biglaw Salaries going up?

Postby Yukos » Sat Apr 25, 2015 5:01 pm

Mal Reynolds wrote:
Yukos wrote:
Mal Reynolds wrote:
Yukos wrote:I don't know how you look at that chart and don't conclude LA is the place to be.


LA sucks.


The coldest moment of the coldest day of the year in LA is warmer than the high in Chicago today. And it's almost May.


Almost every other part of the city is terrible.


PM next time you visit and I'll tell you some cool stuff to do.

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ExBiglawAssociate
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Re: Biglaw Salaries going up?

Postby ExBiglawAssociate » Sat Apr 25, 2015 5:23 pm

wiz wrote:
Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:Yeah, I mean housing is a big cost but if I'm paying $2500 I'm NYC and I would pay $1000 a month in Houston, that's $18k a year difference, after tax. I could believe $160k NYC equals $100 or 110k in Houston.

I agree with you on NALP exaggerating the difference, but I'd be interested in seeing how far 70k could take you in Houston/Dallas vs. 160k in NYC.

Really crude calculations: After-tax income on a 160k salary in NYC is about 96k? And after-tax on a 70k salary in TX might be around 50k? Say housing drops you down to 66k in NYC and 40k in TX. After accounting for some of the less extreme COL differences, I could see the difference only being 10-20k apart.

But the problem again is that there's little sense in comparing disposable income if $1 in NYC student loans still equals $1 in TX student loans.

Also, you're living next to some fat piece of shit in Houston who beats his kids, whereas the people in NYC are more likely to have high school diplomas, at least.

Mal Reynolds
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Re: Biglaw Salaries going up?

Postby Mal Reynolds » Sat Apr 25, 2015 5:25 pm

I've been to LA far too much. I know the "good" things to do.

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wiz
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Re: Biglaw Salaries going up?

Postby wiz » Sat Apr 25, 2015 5:30 pm

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:
wiz wrote:
Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:Yeah, I mean housing is a big cost but if I'm paying $2500 I'm NYC and I would pay $1000 a month in Houston, that's $18k a year difference, after tax. I could believe $160k NYC equals $100 or 110k in Houston.

I agree with you on NALP exaggerating the difference, but I'd be interested in seeing how far 70k could take you in Houston/Dallas vs. 160k in NYC.

Really crude calculations: After-tax income on a 160k salary in NYC is about 96k? And after-tax on a 70k salary in TX might be around 50k? Say housing drops you down to 66k in NYC and 40k in TX. After accounting for some of the less extreme COL differences, I could see the difference only being 10-20k apart.

But the problem again is that there's little sense in comparing disposable income if $1 in NYC student loans still equals $1 in TX student loans.

Also, you're living next to some fat piece of shit in Houston who beats his kids, whereas the people in NYC are more likely to have high school diplomas, at least.

Yeah, beating kids is probably worse than neglecting them and letting them become thin piece of shit cokeheads.

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Re: Biglaw Salaries going up?

Postby mvp99 » Sat Apr 25, 2015 5:32 pm

wiz wrote:
Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:
wiz wrote:
Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:Yeah, I mean housing is a big cost but if I'm paying $2500 I'm NYC and I would pay $1000 a month in Houston, that's $18k a year difference, after tax. I could believe $160k NYC equals $100 or 110k in Houston.

I agree with you on NALP exaggerating the difference, but I'd be interested in seeing how far 70k could take you in Houston/Dallas vs. 160k in NYC.

Really crude calculations: After-tax income on a 160k salary in NYC is about 96k? And after-tax on a 70k salary in TX might be around 50k? Say housing drops you down to 66k in NYC and 40k in TX. After accounting for some of the less extreme COL differences, I could see the difference only being 10-20k apart.

But the problem again is that there's little sense in comparing disposable income if $1 in NYC student loans still equals $1 in TX student loans.

Also, you're living next to some fat piece of shit in Houston who beats his kids, whereas the people in NYC are more likely to have high school diplomas, at least.

Yeah, beating kids is probably worse than neglecting them and letting them become thin piece of shit cokeheads.


Don't hit your kids.

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SplitMyPants
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Re: Biglaw Salaries going up?

Postby SplitMyPants » Sat Apr 25, 2015 5:53 pm

My personal preference for a city is superior to your personal preference.

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Yardbird
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Re: Biglaw Salaries going up?

Postby Yardbird » Sat Apr 25, 2015 6:19 pm

wiz wrote:
Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:Yeah, I mean housing is a big cost but if I'm paying $2500 I'm NYC and I would pay $1000 a month in Houston, that's $18k a year difference, after tax. I could believe $160k NYC equals $100 or 110k in Houston.

I agree with you on NALP exaggerating the difference, but I'd be interested in seeing how far 70k could take you in Houston/Dallas vs. 160k in NYC.

Really crude calculations: After-tax income on a 160k salary in NYC is about 96k? And after-tax on a 70k salary in TX might be around 50k? Say housing drops you down to 66k in NYC and 40k in TX. After accounting for some of the less extreme COL differences, I could see the difference only being 10-20k apart.

But the problem again is that there's little sense in comparing disposable income if $1 in NYC student loans still equals $1 in TX student loans.
To compare $160K in both,

- Assuming filing single.
- Take out state and federal income taxes, and you're at $110K in NYC (itemized deductions) and $125K in Texas (standard deduction since no state tax). Only one personal exemption claimed.
- Take out SS and Medicare you're at $100K in NYC, $115K in Texas.
- Take out housing ($2,500 a month in NYC, $1000 a month in Texas), and you're at $70K in NYC, $103K in Texas.
- Take out COL (food, cable/internet, transit, etc. - $700ish a month in NYC, $350ish a month in Houston), and you're at $60K in NYC and $98K in Texas.
-Assuming full sticker debt at $225K (monthly payments would be $2,570 roughly), you're at $27K in NYC and $65K in Texas.

If you assume you save the same dollar amount in NYC and Texas, you can put WAY more toward loans or savings or whatever in Texas. An extra $20K-$30K in NYC (e.g. NY to 190) would help equalize when accounting for COL and locality and state taxes when compared to Texas and other low COL states. You would need a much lower starting salary in Texas to feel the same "crunch" someone in NYC feels (around $70K, as wiz stated above). If someone has undergrad loans, or a mortgage, (or a wedding to pay for), the disposable income discrepancy becomes larger.
Last edited by Yardbird on Sat Apr 25, 2015 6:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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JohannDeMann
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Re: Biglaw Salaries going up?

Postby JohannDeMann » Sat Apr 25, 2015 6:23 pm

wiz, your hypothetical doesn't make sense because reality is different :roll:

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Yardbird
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Re: Biglaw Salaries going up?

Postby Yardbird » Sat Apr 25, 2015 6:27 pm

JohannDeMann wrote:wiz, your hypothetical doesn't make sense because reality is different :roll:
Only put the comparison for how far $160K goes because someone might see that and not realize it was a hypothetical. $70K in Houston will likely get you as far as $160K in NYC as long as you are spending money proportionally.

[Edit] Added more context to the above post so it acknowledges wiz's hypo.

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JohannDeMann
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Re: Biglaw Salaries going up?

Postby JohannDeMann » Sat Apr 25, 2015 6:30 pm

id prolly feel more like 90k without kids. with kids 160k is prolly the equivalent of 50k.

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wiz
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Re: Biglaw Salaries going up?

Postby wiz » Sat Apr 25, 2015 6:37 pm

Yeah, I understand that 160k in Houston goes a lot further than 160k in NYC. Someone else said that the discrepancy probably wasn't as large as NALP said it was (67k in Houston = 160k in NYC), and I agreed with him. He said it was more like 100k or 110k, but I thought it might be lower than that.

My point was mainly that regardless of whether you're making 70k in Houston or 160k in NYC, you aren't going to have much disposable income anyway after housing, other living expenses, and loans. And when you're crunched at that level trying to pay off your loans as quickly as possible, other COL considerations don't factor in as significantly because you'll be limited in your purchase of non-necessity goods (where the Houston-NYC discrepancy comes into play for non-housing COL differences).

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wiz
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Re: Biglaw Salaries going up?

Postby wiz » Sat Apr 25, 2015 6:37 pm

JohannDeMann wrote:id prolly feel more like 90k without kids. with kids 160k is prolly the equivalent of 50k.

50k seems low, but 90k single sounds about right.

mvp99
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Re: Biglaw Salaries going up?

Postby mvp99 » Sat Apr 25, 2015 6:41 pm

Houston housing market is cheap.. if you want to live in the ghetto which is basically 3/4 of the city.. no but seriously the $1000 2000sq foot house is BS. yes real estate is cheaper but if you want to live in the a nicer area expect to pay more than that

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Re: Biglaw Salaries going up?

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Sat Apr 25, 2015 6:43 pm

TLS aspies making life decisions entirely based on financial cost benefit analysis since ____.

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rpupkin
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Re: Biglaw Salaries going up?

Postby rpupkin » Sat Apr 25, 2015 6:43 pm

Mal Reynolds wrote:
Yukos wrote:I don't know how you look at that chart and don't conclude LA is the place to be.


LA sucks.

Mal isn't wrong about this.

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wiz
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Re: Biglaw Salaries going up?

Postby wiz » Sat Apr 25, 2015 6:45 pm

mvp99 wrote:Houston housing market is cheap.. if you want to live in the ghetto which is basically 3/4 of the city.. no but seriously the $1000 2000sq foot house is BS. yes real estate is cheaper but if you want to live in the a nicer area expect to pay more than that

I don't really want to turn this into a discussion of Houston, but 1k isn't ghetto life. You can go cheaper than that, just as you can probably go cheaper than 2.5k for NYC. If you want nice, down the street from your firm in NYC, you might be looking at 3k+. And if you want a luxury apartment in Houston, then sure, it's more expensive than 1k.
Last edited by wiz on Sat Apr 25, 2015 6:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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wiz
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Re: Biglaw Salaries going up?

Postby wiz » Sat Apr 25, 2015 6:46 pm

dixiecupdrinking wrote:TLS aspies making life decisions entirely based on financial cost benefit analysis since ____.

Approximately zero people are going to make life decisions based on financial cost-benefit analysis alone. People who choose TX or wtv other cheap secondary market are generally from there. If you want to live in NYC, then go with a NYC firm. If you want to be in TX, then go there.

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Re: Biglaw Salaries going up?

Postby Yardbird » Sat Apr 25, 2015 6:47 pm

wiz wrote:Yeah, I understand that 160k in Houston goes a lot further than 160k in NYC. Someone else said that the discrepancy probably wasn't as large as NALP said it was (67k in Houston = 160k in NYC), and I agreed with him. He said it was more like 100k or 110k, but I thought it might be lower than that.

My point was mainly that regardless of whether you're making 70k in Houston or 160k in NYC, you aren't going to have much disposable income anyway after housing, other living expenses, and loans. And when you're crunched at that level trying to pay off your loans as quickly as possible, other COL considerations don't factor in as significantly because you'll be limited in your purchase of non-necessity goods (where the Houston-NYC discrepancy comes into play for non-housing COL differences).
Yea, based on my above hypo, there are about $50K in unavoidable expenses in TX (rent, student loans, COL) all other things being equal. Factor in taxes that are taken out and roughly the equivalent of $27K disposable income, and you're probably in the $75K-$85K. $67K does seem low.

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Yardbird
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Re: Biglaw Salaries going up?

Postby Yardbird » Sat Apr 25, 2015 6:54 pm

wiz wrote:
mvp99 wrote:Houston housing market is cheap.. if you want to live in the ghetto which is basically 3/4 of the city.. no but seriously the $1000 2000sq foot house is BS. yes real estate is cheaper but if you want to live in the a nicer area expect to pay more than that

I don't really want to turn this into a discussion of Houston, but 1k isn't ghetto life. You can go cheaper than that, just as you can probably go cheaper than 2.5k for NYC. If you want nice, down the street from your firm in NYC, you might be looking at 3k+. And if you want a luxury apartment in Houston, then sure, it's more expensive than 1k.
FWIW, I'm living/working in Houston this summer "down the street" from my firm in what would likely be labeled as a "luxury" apartment. I'm paying less than $1K per month for a room in a 2BR/2BA with 1100 sq ft.
wiz wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:TLS aspies making life decisions entirely based on financial cost benefit analysis since ____.
Approximately zero people are going to make life decisions based on financial cost-benefit analysis alone. People who choose TX or wtv other cheap secondary market are generally from there. If you want to live in NYC, then go with a NYC firm. If you want to be in TX, then go there.
99% true, though I would say that I do know many people who chose TX and other smaller markets over NY because of work opportunities (with many not actually being from those markets). As an example, I wasn't initially looking at TX all that much as a market (not from there) but got an opportunity to work for a firm that's top in something I've been interested in since before law school.

I also wouldn't call TX a secondary market, unless your definition of a primary market is just NY/DC.

Anyways, to get this thread back on track--NY to $380K to make up for COL differences between NY and TX?

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wiz
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Re: Biglaw Salaries going up?

Postby wiz » Sat Apr 25, 2015 7:06 pm

shadowofjazz wrote:
wiz wrote:
mvp99 wrote:Houston housing market is cheap.. if you want to live in the ghetto which is basically 3/4 of the city.. no but seriously the $1000 2000sq foot house is BS. yes real estate is cheaper but if you want to live in the a nicer area expect to pay more than that

I don't really want to turn this into a discussion of Houston, but 1k isn't ghetto life. You can go cheaper than that, just as you can probably go cheaper than 2.5k for NYC. If you want nice, down the street from your firm in NYC, you might be looking at 3k+. And if you want a luxury apartment in Houston, then sure, it's more expensive than 1k.
FWIW, I'm living/working in Houston this summer "down the street" from my firm in what would likely be labeled as a "luxury" apartment. I'm paying less than $1K per month for a room in a 2BR/2BA with 1100 sq ft.
wiz wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:TLS aspies making life decisions entirely based on financial cost benefit analysis since ____.
Approximately zero people are going to make life decisions based on financial cost-benefit analysis alone. People who choose TX or wtv other cheap secondary market are generally from there. If you want to live in NYC, then go with a NYC firm. If you want to be in TX, then go there.
99% true, though I would say that I do know many people who chose TX and other smaller markets over NY because of work opportunities (with many not actually being from those markets). As an example, I wasn't initially looking at TX all that much as a market (not from there) but got an opportunity to work for a firm that's top in something I've been interested in since before law school.

I also wouldn't call TX a secondary market, unless your definition of a primary market is just NY/DC.

Yeah, you don't have to sell me on TX. I love it there, but I didn't want to overstate the point on housing costs or general COL.

You're also definitely right about the work opportunities thing, but those aren't really superior to anywhere else unless you're talking specifically about energy work, in which case I could see wanting to go to Houston. I'm definitely a TX homer and try to talk it up sometimes when people are indifferent about where to work or don't want NYC and don't have a viable hometown secondary market. But TX obviously isn't for everyone, while a place like Chicago is appealing to almost everyone and is a great city with a relatively low COL (compared to MFH).

I think TX is generally categorized as a secondary market on tls because primary market = NYC/DC and maybe Chicago/LA. It doesn't really matter either way since all those cities pay market and have good legal work.

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Re: Biglaw Salaries going up?

Postby sinfiery » Sat Apr 25, 2015 8:29 pm

shadowofjazz wrote:To compare $160K in both,

- Assuming filing single.
- Take out state and federal income taxes, and you're at $110K in NYC (itemized deductions) and $125K in Texas (standard deduction since no state tax). Only one personal exemption claimed.
- Take out SS and Medicare you're at $100K in NYC, $115K in Texas.
- Take out housing ($2,500 a month in NYC, $1000 a month in Texas), and you're at $70K in NYC, $103K in Texas.
- Take out COL (food, cable/internet, transit, etc. - $700ish a month in NYC, $350ish a month in Houston), and you're at $60K in NYC and $98K in Texas.
-Assuming full sticker debt at $225K (monthly payments would be $2,570 roughly), you're at $27K in NYC and $65K in Texas.

If you assume you save the same dollar amount in NYC and Texas, you can put WAY more toward loans or savings or whatever in Texas. An extra $20K-$30K in NYC (e.g. NY to 190) would help equalize when accounting for COL and locality and state taxes when compared to Texas and other low COL states. You would need a much lower starting salary in Texas to feel the same "crunch" someone in NYC feels (around $70K, as wiz stated above). If someone has undergrad loans, or a mortgage, (or a wedding to pay for), the disposable income discrepancy becomes larger.


Having lived in both...

$2,500 for housing in NYC? lol.

Restaurants aren't cheaper in TX by much ($7-9 meals versus 9-11 in NYC); Cable/internet is the same;

Groceries from the market are way more expensive (if not on sale) but using instacart, the cost is greatly alleviated. Barely more.

Transit is substantially more in TX (You need a car versus $112/month for the subway IF that +/- cabs are cheap too)
If you go drinking in TX, cabs will cost way more. Can't walk home either.

Assume 5k/year for car loan + 2k/year for gas + 1k/year for insurance

Sure, there are more things to do in NYC and you can waste your money faster (drinks being more expensive is huge) but, baseline, it isn't that much more and factoring in transit, very likely could be substantially cheaper.


The biggest cost difference is really just housing. If you need to spend $2,500 in NYC to find something comfortable, you will very likely save a substantial amount of money in Texas. If you can get by with roommates spending 1,000-1,500, the difference really isn't very stark (minus taxes).

(I paid 1,300 and $900 twice for housing in NYC so far - 1300 by NYU and 900 for a 20 minute subway to midtown from manhattan/25 min to downtown from BK)

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: Biglaw Salaries going up?

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Sat Apr 25, 2015 8:50 pm

dixiecupdrinking wrote:TLS aspies making life decisions entirely based on financial cost benefit analysis since ____.


1. People with large debt don't have the luxury of making decisions on criteria other than "How do I pay this off ASAP?"
2. There's no point of living in a higher COL city if you don't have the free time to enjoy the benefits of that city.
3. Even when they do have a lot of free time, a lot of twentysomethings spend their time on the Internet, going to dive bars, or just generally things you can do anywhere.

One size doesn't fit all, but a lot of people are in circumstances where they might as well save the money if they have the choice.

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Re: Biglaw Salaries going up?

Postby BigZuck » Sat Apr 25, 2015 10:27 pm

shadowofjazz wrote:
wiz wrote:
Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:Yeah, I mean housing is a big cost but if I'm paying $2500 I'm NYC and I would pay $1000 a month in Houston, that's $18k a year difference, after tax. I could believe $160k NYC equals $100 or 110k in Houston.

I agree with you on NALP exaggerating the difference, but I'd be interested in seeing how far 70k could take you in Houston/Dallas vs. 160k in NYC.

Really crude calculations: After-tax income on a 160k salary in NYC is about 96k? And after-tax on a 70k salary in TX might be around 50k? Say housing drops you down to 66k in NYC and 40k in TX. After accounting for some of the less extreme COL differences, I could see the difference only being 10-20k apart.

But the problem again is that there's little sense in comparing disposable income if $1 in NYC student loans still equals $1 in TX student loans.
To compare $160K in both,

- Assuming filing single.
- Take out state and federal income taxes, and you're at $110K in NYC (itemized deductions) and $125K in Texas (standard deduction since no state tax). Only one personal exemption claimed.
- Take out SS and Medicare you're at $100K in NYC, $115K in Texas.
- Take out housing ($2,500 a month in NYC, $1000 a month in Texas), and you're at $70K in NYC, $103K in Texas.
- Take out COL (food, cable/internet, transit, etc. - $700ish a month in NYC, $350ish a month in Houston), and you're at $60K in NYC and $98K in Texas.
-Assuming full sticker debt at $225K (monthly payments would be $2,570 roughly), you're at $27K in NYC and $65K in Texas.

If you assume you save the same dollar amount in NYC and Texas, you can put WAY more toward loans or savings or whatever in Texas. An extra $20K-$30K in NYC (e.g. NY to 190) would help equalize when accounting for COL and locality and state taxes when compared to Texas and other low COL states. You would need a much lower starting salary in Texas to feel the same "crunch" someone in NYC feels (around $70K, as wiz stated above). If someone has undergrad loans, or a mortgage, (or a wedding to pay for), the disposable income discrepancy becomes larger.


I know yay no income tax is the refrain for a reason but isn't the property tax in TX pretty high? That 3000 square foot wife is going to be a drain every year. (I guess maybe the answer is rent forever but this is America, dammit, if you're not treking in from Sugarland every day or buying your 500K cottage in the Heights you ain't livin').

No doubt Houston is cheaper than NYC and young single people rocking out in their nice 2K a month apartments in midtown have it pretty good but it's nowhere near the "Just do buy a mansion bro, you'll have benjamins falling out of your butt" that people who have never lived there think it is. You actually probably can buy a huge house which is impossible in NYC but it'll be in one of the many Lands and to me that's a fate worse than death. Hell, it's probably a fate worse than NYC. If you make partner then you might be able to live it up inside the loop somewhere but we all know how realistic that is.

I've lived in expensive cities (granted not NYC) and I have lived in TX. The big difference I notice is rent. You can get something in TX that is 3-4 times more expensive (or more) in an expensive city. After that? I guess bar drinks are cheaper, but that depends on where you are drinking (in either city). Restaurants are somewhat cheaper. I'm drawing a blank on what else might be cheaper (basically what Sinfiery said)

Eta: (Wasn't trying to just single you out Shadow, just trying to add to the Houston discussion)

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Re: Biglaw Salaries going up?

Postby JohannDeMann » Sat Apr 25, 2015 11:08 pm

you should prolly look at what nyc real estate costs. buying isnt even on the table there.




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