About to fail a class. Do I still have a chance?

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alex90
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Re: About to fail a class. Do I still have a chance?

Postby alex90 » Sun Dec 07, 2014 4:31 pm

AReasonableMan wrote:It's absolutely nuts to assume you're going to be able to transfer to a good law school with an F or D on your transcript at a TTT. You had to be in the top five percent. The word curve or median never should come up. There isn't a strong correlation b/w LRW and other classes but you needed close to a perfect record. Just drop out. They can't fail u for not taking finals, could they?


I assumed that I'll be able to transfer before the future D or F. Now I don't think it will be possible no matter what my other grades are.

alex90
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Re: About to fail a class. Do I still have a chance?

Postby alex90 » Sun Dec 07, 2014 4:33 pm

AReasonableMan wrote:
alex90 wrote:
jbagelboy wrote: Legal writing instructors typically aren't tenured professors. Somehow I doubt he or she really has the pull to fuck over a student like this.


She can do that without a problem, trust me.

jbagelboy wrote:While we all love to beat on law profs and administration, I'd note lastly that you should reflect a little on some of your recent decision-making; not only your poor choice of school given your goals, but why would you submit your memo late when the policy specifically said you would fail if you did so? It doesn't add up.


I know, I know - I made a mistake with the school but until last week everything was going according to my plan - I thought that I'll be able to transfer, don't spend much money the first year, and save one year of my life. And it's my fault for the late submission, I messed up the dates, it has happened only twice in my entire college education. Her classes were cancelled, I got carried away with studying for the other courses, and doing some additional reading. It's a mistake that will cost me a better life and I'll always regret doing it.

Didn't you have friends in the class? How didn't you find out about it?


I don't know. It was Thanksgiving, everybody went home and the week before the classes were cancelled.

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twenty
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Re: About to fail a class. Do I still have a chance?

Postby twenty » Sun Dec 07, 2014 4:35 pm

Will you actually have an F on your transcript at the end of this semester, or will it say something like "Incomplete pending completion of course"? The schools that I'm aware of, including my own, make LRW a 4-6 credit class that spans over a year, and you get a single grade for the whole year.

AReasonableMan
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Re: About to fail a class. Do I still have a chance?

Postby AReasonableMan » Sun Dec 07, 2014 4:37 pm

Did you contact her during this week or just randomly submit it?

alex90
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Re: About to fail a class. Do I still have a chance?

Postby alex90 » Sun Dec 07, 2014 4:38 pm

twenty wrote:Will you actually have an F on your transcript at the end of this semester, or will it say something like "Incomplete pending completion of course"? The schools that I'm aware of, including my own, make LRW a 4-6 credit class that spans over a year, and you get a single grade for the whole year.


It will be an F, not incomplete.

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twenty
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Re: About to fail a class. Do I still have a chance?

Postby twenty » Sun Dec 07, 2014 4:40 pm

Finish the semester (so not all your grades are Fs) and drop out.

alex90
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Re: About to fail a class. Do I still have a chance?

Postby alex90 » Sun Dec 07, 2014 4:47 pm

AReasonableMan wrote:Did you contact her during this week or just randomly submit it?


I spoke with her during office hours after I submitted it on one of the last days before her winter break (I think she's currently out-of- state). I tried to convince her, I explained her that I got confused about the due date, I begged her but she said I'll get zero for that assignment.

Then, I spoke with the Dean about withdrawing, it didn't work out; I sent the professor e-mails to no avail (she hasn't replied) asking if I can substitute an assignment, do some extra memos, help her research during the winter, etc. Yes, I'm that desperate.

Anonymous User
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Re: About to fail a class. Do I still have a chance?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Dec 07, 2014 5:00 pm

alex90 wrote:
AReasonableMan wrote:Did you contact her during this week or just randomly submit it?


I spoke with her during office hours after I submitted it on one of the last days before her winter break (I think she's currently out-of- state). I tried to convince her, I explained her that I got confused about the due date, I begged her but she said I'll get zero for that assignment.

Then, I spoke with the Dean about withdrawing, it didn't work out; I sent the professor e-mails to no avail (she hasn't replied) asking if I can substitute an assignment, do some extra memos, help her research during the winter, etc. Yes, I'm that desperate.

I was more suggesting that if you had been in correspondence about the paper during that week and she never said I can't accept a late paper there might be some implication she agreed or whatever. I don't know how doing extra work/research addresses the issue. It'd be unfair to the rest of the class to let it go, because of the forced curve. But a 0 is pretty harsh.

alex90
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Re: About to fail a class. Do I still have a chance?

Postby alex90 » Sun Dec 07, 2014 5:13 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
alex90 wrote:
AReasonableMan wrote:Did you contact her during this week or just randomly submit it?


I spoke with her during office hours after I submitted it on one of the last days before her winter break (I think she's currently out-of- state). I tried to convince her, I explained her that I got confused about the due date, I begged her but she said I'll get zero for that assignment.

Then, I spoke with the Dean about withdrawing, it didn't work out; I sent the professor e-mails to no avail (she hasn't replied) asking if I can substitute an assignment, do some extra memos, help her research during the winter, etc. Yes, I'm that desperate.

I was more suggesting that if you had been in correspondence about the paper during that week and she never said I can't accept a late paper there might be some implication she agreed or whatever. I don't know how doing extra work/research addresses the issue. It'd be unfair to the rest of the class to let it go, because of the forced curve. But a 0 is pretty harsh.


I wasn't in correspondence with her. We didn't see her for some time. She does have a rule for late submission but it lasts 48 hours and I submitted the assignment a week late.

The extra work that I suggested to do for her is a desperate attempt to show her that I don't deserve an F.

AReasonableMan
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Re: About to fail a class. Do I still have a chance?

Postby AReasonableMan » Sun Dec 07, 2014 8:58 pm

alex90 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
alex90 wrote:
AReasonableMan wrote:Did you contact her during this week or just randomly submit it?


I spoke with her during office hours after I submitted it on one of the last days before her winter break (I think she's currently out-of- state). I tried to convince her, I explained her that I got confused about the due date, I begged her but she said I'll get zero for that assignment.

Then, I spoke with the Dean about withdrawing, it didn't work out; I sent the professor e-mails to no avail (she hasn't replied) asking if I can substitute an assignment, do some extra memos, help her research during the winter, etc. Yes, I'm that desperate.

I was more suggesting that if you had been in correspondence about the paper during that week and she never said I can't accept a late paper there might be some implication she agreed or whatever. I don't know how doing extra work/research addresses the issue. It'd be unfair to the rest of the class to let it go, because of the forced curve. But a 0 is pretty harsh.


I wasn't in correspondence with her. We didn't see her for some time. She does have a rule for late submission but it lasts 48 hours and I submitted the assignment a week late.

The extra work that I suggested to do for her is a desperate attempt to show her that I don't deserve an F.

Yeah, good luck. I would definitely drop out after this semester. The odds of having a real career out of the school were very low to begin with. Statistically, this could be a blessing. Instead of sinking in 6/6 of the cost and likely being in the same position you are in now, you can leave with 1/6. Even with a C, when you go to a TTT/TTTT everything has to be perfect for you to even have a shot. This is the unfortunate nature of the route you chose. No one fails at a t-14, but the equivalent is probably a C. One 1L C at a t-14, and you're likely done. Nature of the beast.

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Ron Don Volante
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Re: About to fail a class. Do I still have a chance?

Postby Ron Don Volante » Sun Dec 07, 2014 9:03 pm

Yeah this really isn't a bad thing bud. Find something else to do with your life and move on, or go back home and put serious effort into retaking.

run26.2
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Re: About to fail a class. Do I still have a chance?

Postby run26.2 » Sun Dec 07, 2014 9:25 pm

Did you have it done ahead of the deadline? If so, do you have any evidence of that?

alex90
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Re: About to fail a class. Do I still have a chance?

Postby alex90 » Sun Dec 07, 2014 9:57 pm

First of all, I'd like to thank everybody for your comments and the people who just read about my problems.

Secondly, I understand that I got into a lot of trouble and can blame only myself for that. I'm very much delusional about my goals and your comments helped me shape my next moves in life. I'll definitely take the final exams even if only to prove to myself how close I was to what I wanted in life.

Thirdly, I'll see if I can do anything about the bad grade, highly doubt it though. I also doubt if I'll reapply for next year at all. But am strongly considering change in careers and since I do have options that won't be very hard. I don't have college debt, my sunk costs are due to my year lease, the price of textbooks, fees, parking permits, etc. but I can recover them in less than a year.

So, thank you once again. I really appreciated your comments. They helped me keep my sanity!

Good luck to everyone else in your final/bar exams, summer employments, clerkships, future firm offers... Wishing you the best!

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Ron Don Volante
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Re: About to fail a class. Do I still have a chance?

Postby Ron Don Volante » Sun Dec 07, 2014 10:08 pm

best of luck dude, glad we could help out.

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Pikappraider
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Re: About to fail a class. Do I still have a chance?

Postby Pikappraider » Mon Dec 08, 2014 2:53 am

It would have been extremely unlikely to land a 100-200 person firm coming out of Montana regardless. The F is going to hurt a lot

ClubberLang
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Re: About to fail a class. Do I still have a chance?

Postby ClubberLang » Mon Dec 08, 2014 10:43 am

alex90 wrote:First of all, I'd like to thank everybody for your comments and the people who just read about my problems.

Secondly, I understand that I got into a lot of trouble and can blame only myself for that. I'm very much delusional about my goals and your comments helped me shape my next moves in life. I'll definitely take the final exams even if only to prove to myself how close I was to what I wanted in life.

Thirdly, I'll see if I can do anything about the bad grade, highly doubt it though. I also doubt if I'll reapply for next year at all. But am strongly considering change in careers and since I do have options that won't be very hard. I don't have college debt, my sunk costs are due to my year lease, the price of textbooks, fees, parking permits, etc. but I can recover them in less than a year.

So, thank you once again. I really appreciated your comments. They helped me keep my sanity!

Good luck to everyone else in your final/bar exams, summer employments, clerkships, future firm offers... Wishing you the best!



It seems like you really want to be a lawyer. If there were other graded assignments in that class that you did alright on, I doubt that the professor would give you an F and not a D. I'd say bust your tail, try to get a D, and make up for it next semester. If you make the D, do better next semester. If you make an F, drop out. Biglaw was probably out for you anyway at Montana, but that doesn't mean you can't have a good career. Don't let one mistake ruin your dreams. If this is really what you want to do, then do it.

AReasonableMan
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Re: About to fail a class. Do I still have a chance?

Postby AReasonableMan » Tue Dec 09, 2014 1:18 am

alex90 wrote:First of all, I'd like to thank everybody for your comments and the people who just read about my problems.

Secondly, I understand that I got into a lot of trouble and can blame only myself for that. I'm very much delusional about my goals and your comments helped me shape my next moves in life. I'll definitely take the final exams even if only to prove to myself how close I was to what I wanted in life.

Thirdly, I'll see if I can do anything about the bad grade, highly doubt it though. I also doubt if I'll reapply for next year at all. But am strongly considering change in careers and since I do have options that won't be very hard. I don't have college debt, my sunk costs are due to my year lease, the price of textbooks, fees, parking permits, etc. but I can recover them in less than a year.

So, thank you once again. I really appreciated your comments. They helped me keep my sanity!

Good luck to everyone else in your final/bar exams, summer employments, clerkships, future firm offers... Wishing you the best!

If you are finishing exams then you want to do your best. This will require removing this whole debacle from your consciousness. Perhaps the hardest part of law school and one component nobody really talks about is how important it is to be like a closer in baseball: forget last night's screw up and focus only on tonight. This was the most stressful part of the whole charade for me, and I never had to deal with what you're dealing with. You have to separate yourself from the reality. Truthfully, the type of employment you can reasonably expect from a TTT or even those lower T-1's is unique from other forms of employment. Cumulative GPA might not be as imperative. In addition, if you're supplying a writing sample, an employer can see your writing ability. IDK how good the story of missing a deadline is, because responsibility and reliability are probably more important than slight legal IQ distinctions.

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jbagelboy
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Re: About to fail a class. Do I still have a chance?

Postby jbagelboy » Tue Dec 09, 2014 11:07 am

let us know how this turns out. if the school truly winds up failing you in legal writing when you excel in your doctrinal coursework, could be ATL worthy idk that's some form over substance horse shit

kcdc1
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Re: About to fail a class. Do I still have a chance?

Postby kcdc1 » Tue Dec 09, 2014 11:41 am

Glad to hear you've decided to take the most reasonable course. Finishing exams and dropping out after this semester is a good option. Your odds of making it back to CA were not great coming in, and they will be extremely low after a D in LRW. Even with straight A's in every other class, you're still looking at a ~3.0 this semester, which is not going to put you in a recoverable position.

Luckily, all you've lost is a few months of rent, and your exposure to some doctrinal law and legal reasoning might serve you well in a career in another field. Look at this as a lucky break -- you've saved 2.5 years of law school that would have left you with marginal job prospects. Now you go get a job with a brighter future.

One additional note -- if you could drop out now and avoid having a transcript at all, that might be better, although employers/schools will ask what you did this fall, so you'd have to tell them you dropped out of law school anyway. As it stands, you'll probably have to admit to a date mix-up that the school wouldn't work with you on, which is not awesome, but it's not the end of the world. In interviews, just admit it, note how well you did in your other classes and how hard you worked, and pivot to your other strengths.

NotMyRealName09
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Re: About to fail a class. Do I still have a chance?

Postby NotMyRealName09 » Tue Dec 09, 2014 12:24 pm

This disaster of a thread should remind us all how razor thin the line between success and utter complete failure really can be. The cardinal sin in law is blowing filing deadlines. I am sympathetic because it's always sad to see someone fail, and its heart rending here, but the damage is done. The only excuse given by OP for blowing a paper deadline by a week is "I forgot about it." That's not sufficient. If you were a lawyer and failed to file something, and your failure ruins your client's case, you'll both be fired and sued for malpractice. Yes, sometimes what seem like minor mistakes can mean the world.

This mistake probably destroyed your near-term prospects for landing a decent job out of law school, which weren't great based on where you attended in the first place. But this country is chock full of lawyers who had terrible grades who nevertheless have jobs. Not great jobs, but jobs, and who knows? The world is full of exceptions to the rule. If you really want to be a lawyer, and you accept that you've screwed yourself in the short term by bombing this class, fuck it, stick with it and graduate. Maybe that's not the rational choice, but whatever, you do you.

Anonymous User
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Re: About to fail a class. Do I still have a chance?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Dec 10, 2014 6:20 pm

Just wanted to drop you a line here because I was in a similar situation and neurotically googled for information from other people.

I go to a T14 and I "failed" legal writing. My school doesn't give letter grades but I got what amounts to an F, a not passing grade. It was a disaster and I didn't even have as good of an excuse as you did. I just blundered through the work and drank way too much near the deadline, so what I did turn in was a huge mess.

I was completely fucked when OCI came around. I had a few interviews, but none of the big firms wanted anything to do with me, even though I worked really hard second semester and my professor submitted a letter describing how much I improved and how impressed she was by how I had bounced back from my lacking grade first semester. Didn't matter. Big firms don't want anything to do with someone with that kind of mark on their transcript, no matter how good their grades were after that or how positive a professor's recommendation was.

BUT -- All is not lost. I hustled hard and found a job at a small firm in the place where I go to law school, worked for them part time over the next two years and got a badass job offer out of it. Among my group of friends at law school, I am among the most satisfied and excited to be doing the type of work I am doing, and I am compensated more than fairly for it. My present employers never even asked for my grades.

You can come back from it, but it isn't easy, and my story is atypical, I would imagine. It's just impossible to explain a failing grade in legal writing in interviews. I wanted to focus on writing as one of my strengths (English background), so it was doubly damaging to my interview spiel. I worked with our career office on it, I did tons of practice interviews and practiced introducing the grade in different ways, and I even avoided mentioning it at all in some interviews, just to see if maybe they would overlook it. Nothing doing.

I am in good shape, fairly good looking, very articulate, and had top half grades. 10+ screeners, no callbacks. Failing legal writing is the kiss of death for the conveyor belt of legal jobs, so be prepared to do something outside the box or else drop out. One assignment shouldn't define you or your potential.

Good luck.

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Re: About to fail a class. Do I still have a chance?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Dec 10, 2014 6:44 pm

Idk about kiss or death but you don't have to be a genius to be successful at a firm. Consistently good is probably better for any business than sometimes genius/sometimes train wreck. I think the hard truth is that failing LRW at a school where that rarely happens is it's not crazy to think you'll have a hard time with deadlines and work product. Supply and demand kinda makes this really crappy.

Sry didn't mean to be anonymous.

NotMyRealName09
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Re: About to fail a class. Do I still have a chance?

Postby NotMyRealName09 » Sat Dec 13, 2014 2:07 am

Anonymous User wrote:Just wanted to drop you a line here because I was in a similar situation and neurotically googled for information from other people.

I go to a T14 and I "failed" legal writing. My school doesn't give letter grades but I got what amounts to an F, a not passing grade. It was a disaster and I didn't even have as good of an excuse as you did. I just blundered through the work and drank way too much near the deadline, so what I did turn in was a huge mess.

I was completely fucked when OCI came around. I had a few interviews, but none of the big firms wanted anything to do with me, even though I worked really hard second semester and my professor submitted a letter describing how much I improved and how impressed she was by how I had bounced back from my lacking grade first semester. Didn't matter. Big firms don't want anything to do with someone with that kind of mark on their transcript, no matter how good their grades were after that or how positive a professor's recommendation was.

BUT -- All is not lost. I hustled hard and found a job at a small firm in the place where I go to law school, worked for them part time over the next two years and got a badass job offer out of it. Among my group of friends at law school, I am among the most satisfied and excited to be doing the type of work I am doing, and I am compensated more than fairly for it. My present employers never even asked for my grades.

You can come back from it, but it isn't easy, and my story is atypical, I would imagine. It's just impossible to explain a failing grade in legal writing in interviews. I wanted to focus on writing as one of my strengths (English background), so it was doubly damaging to my interview spiel. I worked with our career office on it, I did tons of practice interviews and practiced introducing the grade in different ways, and I even avoided mentioning it at all in some interviews, just to see if maybe they would overlook it. Nothing doing.

I am in good shape, fairly good looking, very articulate, and had top half grades. 10+ screeners, no callbacks. Failing legal writing is the kiss of death for the conveyor belt of legal jobs, so be prepared to do something outside the box or else drop out. One assignment shouldn't define you or your potential.

Good luck.


Yeah. If good law students were scarce......but they are not. I've interviewed a number of OCI call backs in my position as an associate (I agree to do them because I look forward to the expensive food, so if you impress me, bonus for my day and for you), and I look for ONE THING to ding them on, and I usually find it. Put a fail grade on there, you won't even get to me. Goddamn, sometimes I write this shit and its amazing that this is how it is.

arklaw13
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Re: About to fail a class. Do I still have a chance?

Postby arklaw13 » Sun Dec 14, 2014 11:16 pm

So I'm confused why OP will 100% fail the class. Maybe RC fail on my part.

My initial thought was that if he fails this assignment it will throw him to the bottom of the curve, but that should put him at a C or C- even on a TTT curve. Still sucks, maybe not the kiss of death that a C at a T14 would be. Or is there some auto-fail provision I missed?

OTOH, Montana isn't going to work out unless you're top of the class so dropping out still may be OP's best option.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: About to fail a class. Do I still have a chance?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sun Dec 14, 2014 11:37 pm

OP said the prof told them the highest grade they could get is a D.




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