Admin necessary for Lit/Clerkships?

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Anonymous User
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Admin necessary for Lit/Clerkships?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Nov 30, 2014 11:35 am

Thinking about taking admin next semester, but all I've heard is that it's full of gunners and that the Prof is generally unpleasant. Is it advisable to forego taking admin altogether if I'm looking to do lit and/or a district court clerkship?

I have a slight interest in environmental litigation, which I know is admin heavy, but I really don't anticipate this being my focus. Plus, if I do any admin law in practice, it will almost all be at the state level. FWIW, I'll be practicing in a secondary midwest market.

Anonymous User
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Re: Admin necessary for Lit/Clerkships?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Nov 30, 2014 9:51 pm

bump

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minnbills
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Re: Admin necessary for Lit/Clerkships?

Postby minnbills » Sun Nov 30, 2014 10:32 pm

Just read the EE if you don't want to take the class

Anonymous User
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Re: Admin necessary for Lit/Clerkships?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Nov 30, 2014 11:05 pm

Admin covers a good amount of useful materials for almost any practice. I would say it's not super important for your average Lit associate though. Regarding clerkships, COA judges definitely want to see it on your transcript. I am guessing for District Court judges that is true as well, but perhaps to a lesser degree.

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Re: Admin necessary for Lit/Clerkships?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Dec 01, 2014 12:20 am

Ex-DCt/COA clerk and current biglaw lit associate here. I was hired for these positions without admin, and I've never been completely screwed because I've not had admin. That said, if I could go back and add one additional law school class, it would be admin (followed by choice of law, class actions, and possibly an advanced civ pro course.) I'd at least look at auditing it if I were you.

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Shaggier1
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Re: Admin necessary for Lit/Clerkships?

Postby Shaggier1 » Mon Dec 01, 2014 12:48 pm

That said, if I could go back and add one additional law school class, it would be admin


+1 from big law attorney/dist ct clerk

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banjo
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Re: Admin necessary for Lit/Clerkships?

Postby banjo » Mon Dec 01, 2014 12:57 pm

Is there anything useful in Admin for people who might end up in corporate?

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AreJay711
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Re: Admin necessary for Lit/Clerkships?

Postby AreJay711 » Mon Dec 01, 2014 1:28 pm

I hate to go against the grain here, given that a lot of people who should know think it is important, but I fail see what is useful about admin as a class. Any reasonable amount of research into a question will give you the relevant legal standard. Actual litigation would appear, on my limited but existent experience, to be heavily facts based. I guess having and idea of the forest before looking at the specific tree you're litigating is helpful, but not that much.

I can't imagine it is useful for clerking either. The parties are going to bring up anything that you'd learn and remember from a general admin course in their briefs. At least one of the parties -- the agency -- is going to have a pretty good idea about the relevant statute and the relevant standards. It's not like something in jurisdiction, choice of law, or fed courts that is going to slip by the parties and judge to be caught by a diligent clerk relying on something he or she learned in law school.

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lisjjen
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Re: Admin necessary for Lit/Clerkships?

Postby lisjjen » Mon Dec 01, 2014 1:40 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Thinking about taking admin next semester, but all I've heard is that it's full of gunners and that the Prof is generally unpleasant. Is it advisable to forego taking admin altogether if I'm looking to do lit and/or a district court clerkship?

I have a slight interest in environmental litigation, which I know is admin heavy, but I really don't anticipate this being my focus. Plus, if I do any admin law in practice, it will almost all be at the state level. FWIW, I'll be practicing in a secondary midwest market.


If you want to do government work of any kind, admin law is necessary. HTH

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Admin necessary for Lit/Clerkships?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Mon Dec 01, 2014 1:57 pm

AreJay711 wrote:I hate to go against the grain here, given that a lot of people who should know think it is important, but I fail see what is useful about admin as a class. Any reasonable amount of research into a question will give you the relevant legal standard. Actual litigation would appear, on my limited but existent experience, to be heavily facts based. I guess having and idea of the forest before looking at the specific tree you're litigating is helpful, but not that much.

I can't imagine it is useful for clerking either. The parties are going to bring up anything that you'd learn and remember from a general admin course in their briefs. At least one of the parties -- the agency -- is going to have a pretty good idea about the relevant statute and the relevant standards. It's not like something in jurisdiction, choice of law, or fed courts that is going to slip by the parties and judge to be caught by a diligent clerk relying on something he or she learned in law school.

Sure, but when I was clerking I was really glad I'd had a grounding in admin by taking the course. It's not just knowing the applicable standard, but having some concept of how the administrative regime works.

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lisjjen
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Re: Admin necessary for Lit/Clerkships?

Postby lisjjen » Mon Dec 01, 2014 2:40 pm

To be a little more constructive.

Yes Admin Law is full of gunners. Yes it is difficult - it was the most difficult class I took in law school. But it's easy to think of the executive as a monolith. In reality, it is more complex and layered than either the legislative or judicial branch. I'm doing regulatory enforcement work right now, but I also summered with a judge. Like any class in law school, admin law is just a jumping off point for what you'll learn on the ground, but having that jumping off point is a great advantage over going into the weeds without knowing what you're looking for.

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kalvano
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Re: Admin necessary for Lit/Clerkships?

Postby kalvano » Mon Dec 01, 2014 3:37 pm

I thought Admin was one of the most useful classes I took in law school.

Also, why is the OP anon?

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AreJay711
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Re: Admin necessary for Lit/Clerkships?

Postby AreJay711 » Mon Dec 01, 2014 3:45 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:Sure, but when I was clerking I was really glad I'd had a grounding in admin by taking the course. It's not just knowing the applicable standard, but having some concept of how the administrative regime works.


Yeah, I'm not trying to argue with the people here who took value in admin -- the OP should take it. If nothing else, admin could be less useless than whatever Law and X class he or she would take otherwise.

justinp
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Re: Admin necessary for Lit/Clerkships?

Postby justinp » Mon Dec 01, 2014 9:33 pm

hope not.

Anonymous User
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Re: Admin necessary for Lit/Clerkships?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Dec 01, 2014 10:07 pm

kalvano wrote:I thought Admin was one of the most useful classes I took in law school.

Also, why is the OP anon?


OP

Anon because the info I provided combined with my username has a good chance of outing me, and I didn't want to be publicly badmouthing a prof.

Thanks for the advice, everybody. I'll grit my teeth and take admin. Benefits outweigh the costs.

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kalvano
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Re: Admin necessary for Lit/Clerkships?

Postby kalvano » Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:29 am

I cannot recommend this book highly enough.

http://www.amazon.com/Inside-Administra ... 519&sr=1-3

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seizmaar
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Re: Admin necessary for Lit/Clerkships?

Postby seizmaar » Tue Dec 02, 2014 10:10 am

chevron deference my ass. i defer to no man/entity.




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