NYC biglaw v. West Coast biglaw

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TTTooKewl
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NYC biglaw v. West Coast biglaw

Postby TTTooKewl » Mon Nov 17, 2014 4:27 pm

Is there actually a difference in lifestyle? Hours billed? Does it matter whether the west coast office is a NYC satellite office, or a firm with roots on the west coast?

If so, any difference between LA and SF markets?

Curious about other non-NYC biglaw markets as well.

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fats provolone
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Re: NYC biglaw v. West Coast biglaw

Postby fats provolone » Mon Nov 17, 2014 4:49 pm

it's warmer here

desertlaw
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Re: NYC biglaw v. West Coast biglaw

Postby desertlaw » Mon Nov 17, 2014 4:58 pm

Like always, a lot is going to depend on your department and your firm, but a few things that seem true based on spending a few years at V20 "satellite"

1 - face-time in California seems less important; anecdotally, it sure seems like more people are married and have families, so there's a lot of leaving office at 6, having dinner with family, and then getting back online at night from home.

2 - LA vs SF: LA is a lot more commuting (or working from home) than SF, where it's more urban and has actual city-life (LA isn't really a city, just a sprawling area of cool neighborhoods and smaller cities)

3 - Firm with CA roots might look more favortably on your (smaller/satellite) office in CA than a firm that was started in NYC. But not sure how much that really matters.

4 - Don't underestimate how the weather might affect your quality of life. Don't expect fall foilage if you're in southern California; be prepared to have the few days of sunshine in NYC ruined by that one terrible case you're on.

5 - Smaller office means fewer people to work with for the most part, so you should really like the culture/people/fit. At an office of 400+, you can avoid those you dislike.

6 - Be prepared for east coast hours if you're working at west coast office with east coast clients/deals. This means: waking up to about 40+ e-mails when it is only 7 a.m., having conference calls for 4 a.m.

Anonymous User
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Re: NYC biglaw v. West Coast biglaw

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Nov 17, 2014 5:13 pm

desertlaw wrote:Like always, a lot is going to depend on your department and your firm, but a few things that seem true based on spending a few years at V20 "satellite"

1 - face-time in California seems less important; anecdotally, it sure seems like more people are married and have families, so there's a lot of leaving office at 6, having dinner with family, and then getting back online at night from home.


Probably a firm-by-firm thing, or even group-by-group, and maybe seniority a bit, too. I can believe less facetime overall in CA, but the big caveat is that there is huge variation both in CA and in NYC on this front.

2 - LA vs SF: LA is a lot more commuting (or working from home) than SF, where it's more urban and has actual city-life (LA isn't really a city, just a sprawling area of cool neighborhoods and smaller cities)


Of course, only if you're in SF proper. If you're in Silicon Valley (Palo Alto or Mountain View being the most common locations), you'll probably have just as much or more commuting as LA, and you're almost forced to live in a suburban environment unless you're willing to do a very long daily slog from San Francisco.

3 - Firm with CA roots might look more favortably on your (smaller/satellite) office in CA than a firm that was started in NYC. But not sure how much that really matters.


Might is more like will. It's hard to move into California from NYC without something that ties you to California already--though if you're contemplating a move to California, you probably have a good reason that will convince the California firm (work in tech, significant other/spouse, family, etc.).

4 - Don't underestimate how the weather might affect your quality of life. Don't expect fall foilage if you're in southern California; be prepared to have the few days of sunshine in NYC ruined by that one terrible case you're on.


I don't know how much this really matters if you're in the office all the time, but you may be more upset about the weekend work when good weather is more limited. Probably matters more in lower time expectation jobs.

5 - Smaller office means fewer people to work with for the most part, so you should really like the culture/people/fit. At an office of 400+, you can avoid those you dislike.


Well, maybe. Even at huge firms, there's a relatively limited group of people in your practice area who you actually work with. And some California firms do have huge offices, of course.

6 - Be prepared for east coast hours if you're working at west coast office with east coast clients/deals. This means: waking up to about 40+ e-mails when it is only 7 a.m., having conference calls for 4 a.m.


Agree on this one, though it can rarely happen in NYC that you operate on west coast time, too. I've had that happen to me. It's determined mostly by where the client is, and where the partner leading the deal is. More clients are on the east coast, though, even of a lot of California firms.

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Re: NYC biglaw v. West Coast biglaw

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Nov 17, 2014 6:21 pm

Of course, only if you're in SF proper. If you're in Silicon Valley (Palo Alto or Mountain View being the most common locations), you'll probably have just as much or more commuting as LA, and you're almost forced to live in a suburban environment unless you're willing to do a very long daily slog from San Francisco.


As someone who endured the SF-SV daily slog before transferring up to SF: this is critical. If you want to be in SF, fight for a job in SF. Unless you know you love the suburbs, do not put yourself through being stuck in suburban hell during your limited time off from work, and do not put yourself in the position of losing 2 hours a day (i.e., most or all of your free time on many days) sitting on 101 or 280. Just say no. Spare yourself the endless frustration that SV biglaw associates who live in SF feel, every single day.

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jbagelboy
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Re: NYC biglaw v. West Coast biglaw

Postby jbagelboy » Mon Nov 17, 2014 6:34 pm

You get your own office in LA as a summer/first year, whereas in NY you could be waiting 2+ years for that privilege.

As a general rule, you come in earlier and leave earlier in LA, although this should not be taken to mean you necessarily work less hours overall. Many LA firms will have more flexible facetime requirements but this doesn't correlate well in practice with reduced workloads.

In NY, substantively, work will focus more on financial institutions and the finance sector, with a lot of securities work for lit folks as a corollary. In CA, wider variety of industry sectors represented on a regular basis including tech and entertainment, but some would argue the finance work lacks "sophistication" vis a vis NYC.

911 crisis actor
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Re: NYC biglaw v. West Coast biglaw

Postby 911 crisis actor » Mon Nov 17, 2014 6:43 pm

Have fun coming in at 7 to match NYC time

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OneMoreLawHopeful
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Re: NYC biglaw v. West Coast biglaw

Postby OneMoreLawHopeful » Mon Nov 17, 2014 6:49 pm

911 crisis actor wrote:Have fun coming in at 7 to match NYC time


Do people do this? Everyone in my office just dials in from home if someone on the East Coast needs to talk "right now" and it's before ~10am PST.

I'm in lit tho.

Anonymous User
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Re: NYC biglaw v. West Coast biglaw

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Nov 17, 2014 6:59 pm

desertlaw wrote:Like always, a lot is going to depend on your department and your firm, but a few things that seem true based on spending a few years at V20 "satellite"

1 - face-time in California seems less important; anecdotally, it sure seems like more people are married and have families, so there's a lot of leaving office at 6, having dinner with family, and then getting back online at night from home.

4 - Don't underestimate how the weather might affect your quality of life. Don't expect fall foilage if you're in southern California; be prepared to have the few days of sunshine in NYC ruined by that one terrible case you're on.

6 - Be prepared for east coast hours if you're working at west coast office with east coast clients/deals. This means: waking up to about 40+ e-mails when it is only 7 a.m., having conference calls for 4 a.m.


1 - I couldn't agree more. Having worked in both the NYC and the LA "satellite" office of my firm, the quality of life is markedly better on the West Coast due to less face-time requirement, which gives associates huge scheduling flexibility. Most people at my firm's LA office are in by 8/9AM, leave by 6/7PM to go to dinner, go home, have a life, etc. That being said, most (associates) will spend a couple hours a night logging in remotely to answer emails, continue working on projects, etc. The beauty of it is that instead of having to be at the office until 9PM working, you can go home, have dinner with your family, put on comfortable sweatpants, and do work on the couch or in bed.

4 - Also true. The great thing about working in SoCal is that everyday is sunny. So if you have a major deal closing and work a super long week, you didn't really miss anything. It's in the 70's/80's in December...meaning you won't be nearly as grumpy when you miss the few-and-far-between nice days.

6 - This one depends. While I imagine it's true for most firms, my firm's LA "satellite" office generates nearly 90% of its own work, so it's actually not much of a satellite. The great thing about a self-generating office is that your clients are on the West Coast and you don't become a slave to the East Coast hours. While I do have an occasional conference call at 6AM, it's very, very rare. (Again, if your office is a truly "satellite" office, then obviously you will be more apt to be on East Coast hours).

Another thing to add is that there just seems to a more humane/laid-back attitude on the West Coast. I know it sounds cliche, and it's hard to put my finger on it, but West Coast offices just feel less stressful than their NYC counterparts. That being said, it's still biglaw and billing requirements don't change. However, your flexibility over your schedule, the eternal sunshine, and much more affordable COL just makes people happier and more pleasant to work with.

Cogburn87
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Re: NYC biglaw v. West Coast biglaw

Postby Cogburn87 » Mon Nov 17, 2014 7:04 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Another thing to add is that there just seems to a more humane/laid-back attitude on the West Coast. I know it sounds cliche, and it's hard to put my finger on it, but West Coast offices just feel less stressful than their NYC counterparts. That being said, it's still biglaw and billing requirements don't change. However, your flexibility over your schedule, the eternal sunshine, and much more affordable COL just makes people happier and more pleasant to work with.

lol

GOATlawman
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Re: NYC biglaw v. West Coast biglaw

Postby GOATlawman » Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:22 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Another thing to add is that there just seems to a more humane/laid-back attitude on the West Coast. I know it sounds cliche, and it's hard to put my finger on it, but West Coast offices just feel less stressful than their NYC counterparts. That being said, it's still biglaw and billing requirements don't change. However, your flexibility over your schedule, the eternal sunshine, and much more affordable COL just makes people happier and more pleasant to work with.


I don't think this is exclusive to Biglaw offices, or even offices.

West Coast people are just 100x more chill. Less of that history and prestige BS

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KD35
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Re: NYC biglaw v. West Coast biglaw

Postby KD35 » Tue Nov 18, 2014 3:04 am

GOATlawman wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Another thing to add is that there just seems to a more humane/laid-back attitude on the West Coast. I know it sounds cliche, and it's hard to put my finger on it, but West Coast offices just feel less stressful than their NYC counterparts. That being said, it's still biglaw and billing requirements don't change. However, your flexibility over your schedule, the eternal sunshine, and much more affordable COL just makes people happier and more pleasant to work with.


I don't think this is exclusive to Biglaw offices, or even offices.

West Coast people are just 100x more chill. Less of that history and prestige BS


That prestige can help with going to different markets down the road though. Also, the difference is LA traffic.

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bearsfan23
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Re: NYC biglaw v. West Coast biglaw

Postby bearsfan23 » Tue Nov 18, 2014 4:09 am

Anonymous User wrote:
desertlaw wrote:Like always, a lot is going to depend on your department and your firm, but a few things that seem true based on spending a few years at V20 "satellite"

1 - face-time in California seems less important; anecdotally, it sure seems like more people are married and have families, so there's a lot of leaving office at 6, having dinner with family, and then getting back online at night from home.

4 - Don't underestimate how the weather might affect your quality of life. Don't expect fall foilage if you're in southern California; be prepared to have the few days of sunshine in NYC ruined by that one terrible case you're on.

6 - Be prepared for east coast hours if you're working at west coast office with east coast clients/deals. This means: waking up to about 40+ e-mails when it is only 7 a.m., having conference calls for 4 a.m.


1 - I couldn't agree more. Having worked in both the NYC and the LA "satellite" office of my firm, the quality of life is markedly better on the West Coast due to less face-time requirement, which gives associates huge scheduling flexibility. Most people at my firm's LA office are in by 8/9AM, leave by 6/7PM to go to dinner, go home, have a life, etc. That being said, most (associates) will spend a couple hours a night logging in remotely to answer emails, continue working on projects, etc. The beauty of it is that instead of having to be at the office until 9PM working, you can go home, have dinner with your family, put on comfortable sweatpants, and do work on the couch or in bed.

4 - Also true. The great thing about working in SoCal is that everyday is sunny. So if you have a major deal closing and work a super long week, you didn't really miss anything. It's in the 70's/80's in December...meaning you won't be nearly as grumpy when you miss the few-and-far-between nice days.

6 - This one depends. While I imagine it's true for most firms, my firm's LA "satellite" office generates nearly 90% of its own work, so it's actually not much of a satellite. The great thing about a self-generating office is that your clients are on the West Coast and you don't become a slave to the East Coast hours. While I do have an occasional conference call at 6AM, it's very, very rare. (Again, if your office is a truly "satellite" office, then obviously you will be more apt to be on East Coast hours).

Another thing to add is that there just seems to a more humane/laid-back attitude on the West Coast. I know it sounds cliche, and it's hard to put my finger on it, but West Coast offices just feel less stressful than their NYC counterparts. That being said, it's still biglaw and billing requirements don't change. However, your flexibility over your schedule, the eternal sunshine, and much more affordable COL just makes people happier and more pleasant to work with.


Why do people on TLS say this? LA may be slightly more affordable but SF has the highest COL in the country, even higher than NYC

hlsperson1111
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Re: NYC biglaw v. West Coast biglaw

Postby hlsperson1111 » Tue Nov 18, 2014 4:18 am

KD35 wrote:
GOATlawman wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Another thing to add is that there just seems to a more humane/laid-back attitude on the West Coast. I know it sounds cliche, and it's hard to put my finger on it, but West Coast offices just feel less stressful than their NYC counterparts. That being said, it's still biglaw and billing requirements don't change. However, your flexibility over your schedule, the eternal sunshine, and much more affordable COL just makes people happier and more pleasant to work with.


I don't think this is exclusive to Biglaw offices, or even offices.

West Coast people are just 100x more chill. Less of that history and prestige BS


That prestige can help with going to different markets down the road though. Also, the difference is LA traffic.


I don't know why anyone would ever leave CA for another market. It's great here. And I really can't imagine that there are enough people that (a) want to move from CA to some other market (b) can't get a good job in that other market and (c) would have obtained that job if they went to some fancy and prestigious NYC firm for this to be a real concern.

LA traffic is totally bearable if you don't try to commute from the westside to DTLA in the morning. You can even avoid driving altogether if you live in DTLA or somewhere near a metro stop.

FYI: I'm in LA. I get in around 845-9, leave between 8-10 most days, and don't bring much, if any, work home. That's by choice; a lot of people at my firm prefer to do most of their evening work at home, whereas I'm one of those people who likes doing all my work in the office and then being (mostly) free of work obligations once I leave.

Real Madrid
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Re: NYC biglaw v. West Coast biglaw

Postby Real Madrid » Tue Nov 18, 2014 4:59 am

hlsperson1111 wrote:
KD35 wrote:
GOATlawman wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Another thing to add is that there just seems to a more humane/laid-back attitude on the West Coast. I know it sounds cliche, and it's hard to put my finger on it, but West Coast offices just feel less stressful than their NYC counterparts. That being said, it's still biglaw and billing requirements don't change. However, your flexibility over your schedule, the eternal sunshine, and much more affordable COL just makes people happier and more pleasant to work with.


I don't think this is exclusive to Biglaw offices, or even offices.

West Coast people are just 100x more chill. Less of that history and prestige BS


That prestige can help with going to different markets down the road though. Also, the difference is LA traffic.


I don't know why anyone would ever leave CA for another market. It's great here. And I really can't imagine that there are enough people that (a) want to move from CA to some other market (b) can't get a good job in that other market and (c) would have obtained that job if they went to some fancy and prestigious NYC firm for this to be a real concern.

LA traffic is totally bearable if you don't try to commute from the westside to DTLA in the morning. You can even avoid driving altogether if you live in DTLA or somewhere near a metro stop.

FYI: I'm in LA. I get in around 845-9, leave between 8-10 most days, and don't bring much, if any, work home. That's by choice; a lot of people at my firm prefer to do most of their evening work at home, whereas I'm one of those people who likes doing all my work in the office and then being (mostly) free of work obligations once I leave.



You don't know why anyone would ever want to leave LA? The traffic does indeed suck, for one. Most people that move to LA don't move there wanting to live downtown or in Silverlake. They move there wanting to live on the west side.

Going out also sucks. In NYC, Chicago, or DC, you can take public transportation or a cab to go out at night. In LA, you either go out in your neighborhood, take a $50+ Uber both ways to some other neighborhood, or don't go out at all. And if you take that Uber you'll still be sitting in traffic.

The weather actually kind of sucks. There are no seasons. There is nothing to mark the passage of time. Every single day is exactly like the last and that gets very boring after a while.

There is no central hub of activity. LA is just urban sprawl, comprised of slightly different neighborhoods all jammed up against each other but only accessible in your car.

There is also nowhere to walk outside of some random neighborhoods like Venice. If you want food or medicine or really anything late at night, you'll have to get in your car to go get it (if it's even open).

I could go on, but you get the idea. LA is justifiably hated by many.

TTTooKewl
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Re: NYC biglaw v. West Coast biglaw

Postby TTTooKewl » Tue Nov 18, 2014 8:47 am

bearsfan23 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Why do people on TLS say this? LA may be slightly more affordable but SF has the highest COL in the country, even higher than NYC


Downtown SF may have slightly higher median rents, but I still think NYC has a higher COL. In SF, you get more square footage, more modern square footage, more amenities, more windows and better views for the same $$. LA is significantly more affordable than both.

Not sure how the housing market compares between SF and NYC. Would be interested to hear from people on that. I imagine SF suburbs are nicer / more commutable with better public schools?

Anonymous User
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Re: NYC biglaw v. West Coast biglaw

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Nov 21, 2014 1:14 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
You can go home, have dinner with your family, put on comfortable sweatpants, and do work on the couch or in bed.


The #1 reason that I chose a West Coast firm. Do not underestimate the power of wearing sweatpants (or no pants) while doing work from home.

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: NYC biglaw v. West Coast biglaw

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Fri Nov 21, 2014 2:21 pm

ITT lawyers brag about working all night in sweatpants instead of slacks.

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sundance95
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Re: NYC biglaw v. West Coast biglaw

Postby sundance95 » Fri Nov 21, 2014 4:16 pm

TTTooKewl wrote:
bearsfan23 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Why do people on TLS say this? LA may be slightly more affordable but SF has the highest COL in the country, even higher than NYC


Downtown SF may have slightly higher median rents, but I still think NYC has a higher COL. In SF, you get more square footage, more modern square footage, more amenities, more windows and better views for the same $$. LA is significantly more affordable than both.

Not sure how the housing market compares between SF and NYC. Would be interested to hear from people on that. I imagine SF suburbs are nicer / more commutable with better public schools?

This. SF rents have outpaced NYC rents for the past few months, but this is largely because it's an apples/oranges comparison. Proper comparison is SF to MFH and the limited areas of Brooklyn/Queens where associates like to live. The Bronx, Jamaica, etc pull down the median NYC rent.

Buying, on the other hand, is pretty much just as impossible here as in NY. Lots of senior associates live in the East Bay hills (Moraga, Orinda, etc) where schools are good; they BART in every day. That sounds only slightly less miserable to me than the 101/280 slog to SV that some people do from the city, but hey everyone has got to make it work for them.

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fats provolone
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Re: NYC biglaw v. West Coast biglaw

Postby fats provolone » Fri Nov 21, 2014 4:44 pm

dixiecupdrinking wrote:ITT lawyers brag about working all night in sweatpants instead of slacks.

"i could be called to work at any moment! even when im asleep! how cool is that"

related: if i dream about a case can i bill that time?

GOATlawman
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Re: NYC biglaw v. West Coast biglaw

Postby GOATlawman » Fri Nov 21, 2014 6:52 pm

sundance95 wrote:
TTTooKewl wrote:
bearsfan23 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Why do people on TLS say this? LA may be slightly more affordable but SF has the highest COL in the country, even higher than NYC


Downtown SF may have slightly higher median rents, but I still think NYC has a higher COL. In SF, you get more square footage, more modern square footage, more amenities, more windows and better views for the same $$. LA is significantly more affordable than both.

Not sure how the housing market compares between SF and NYC. Would be interested to hear from people on that. I imagine SF suburbs are nicer / more commutable with better public schools?

This. SF rents have outpaced NYC rents for the past few months, but this is largely because it's an apples/oranges comparison. Proper comparison is SF to MFH and the limited areas of Brooklyn/Queens where associates like to live. The Bronx, Jamaica, etc pull down the median NYC rent.

Buying, on the other hand, is pretty much just as impossible here as in NY. Lots of senior associates live in the East Bay hills (Moraga, Orinda, etc) where schools are good; they BART in every day. That sounds only slightly less miserable to me than the 101/280 slog to SV that some people do from the city, but hey everyone has got to make it work for them.


IDK anything about NYC but there are plenty of nice places in fun locations in SF. Not huge but big enough, at least imo. And i'm pretty sure way nicer than NY places are.

E.g. http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1506- ... 8113_zpid/

No reason to go to the East Bay if you're on that Biglaw $$$ time and you're not married with kids. wtf you gonna do with a yard and shit? lol

Anonymous User
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Re: NYC biglaw v. West Coast biglaw

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Nov 21, 2014 11:45 pm

Rent is the only way in which SF is "worse" than living in NYC from a COL perspective, and that too you don't pay city tax living in SF, so it's actually not "worse" if you're comparing pure cost of living. Also, SF is cheaper in literally every other way.

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Desert Fox
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Re: NYC biglaw v. West Coast biglaw

Postby Desert Fox » Fri Nov 21, 2014 11:52 pm

Is SF even more expensive than MFH

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Old Gregg
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Re: NYC biglaw v. West Coast biglaw

Postby Old Gregg » Sat Nov 22, 2014 12:26 am

Desert Fox wrote:Is SF even more expensive than MFH


Nope. I save at least $1,000/month living in SF vs. living in Manhattan, and I live in literally one of the nicest buildings in SF. An equivalent apartment in Manhattan would cost me $6,000/month in rent, plus I'd be paying city tax. Plus I'd feel pressure to eat at Eleven Madison Park because it's the best god damn meal I've ever had.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: NYC biglaw v. West Coast biglaw

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sat Nov 22, 2014 1:20 am

Seems like SF costs come pretty close when you consider the necessity of a car. Does anyone think you can actually live in SF but work in SV? Apparently like half the people at my firm do that but I'm not sure how.




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