Private practice ---> Public interest? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Hey all.

I went to a small-ish law school where opportunities to get hands-on public interest experience in the areas I want to practice in was very hard to do. I worked in public interest my first summer and worked at a big law firm the second (but spent approximately half my time there on public interest/pro bono cases). I'm now clerking for a federal judge.

With my resume, I don't have high hopes of getting hired in public interest straight out of the gate, and in any case, my partner and I are both in pretty deep debt, so working at a higher-paying job for a couple of years won't be the end of the world.

My question is this: What's the best way to leverage a private-sector job into a public interest job down the road? I would like to be a public defender; I know a couple people who've been hired full-time by working at a big firm with an "externship" where you get placed at a PD's office for 6 months or so, so I've thought of trying that. Other government litigation jobs would also be great. I know some people successfully make the jump from AUSA to criminal defense attorney, but I don't know what that career path looks like either, and I know that all but forecloses the public-defender gig.

Other than that, I've assumed doing as much pro bono as possible will help--getting experience in the kind of cases I want to do full-time seems like a good idea. I'm also worried about not getting enough experience standing up and arguing in court, which obviously I will need to have. I've also planned on getting involved with the public service and criminal justice sections of the bar association.

Does this seem like enough? What else should I do? What firms should I be looking at? If there's anyone out there who has successfully made the jump from private law to public interest and would like to share their story, I would be very grateful. Thank you kindly.

[transferror]

My question is this: What's the best way to leverage a private-sector job into a public interest job down the road? I would like to be a public defender; I know a couple people who've been hired full-time by working at a big firm with an "externship" where you get placed at a PD's office for 6 months or so, so I've thought of trying that. Other government litigation jobs would also be great. I know some people successfully make the jump from AUSA to criminal defense attorney, but I don't know what that career path looks like either, and I know that all but forecloses the public-defender gig.

I don't think there's an objective "best way" to get there. The public defender ship probably sailed with your 2L SA. Paths into federal prosecutor's and defender's offices seem to be less rigid than the state level, especially in major (urban) markets. The AUSA --> criminal defense path is irrelevant until you become an AUSA, which brings you back to the problem of transitioning from firm to PI. As for state positions, there seem to be more diverse paths into an AG's office than DA or PD since the practices are so varied with an AG.

Do the extern thing if you are at a firm that allows it and try to get trial experience with your pro bono hours. Aside from that, you'll need some combination of luck, timing, and connections through networking. If you're lucky enough to a) be at a firm with a good white collar defense practice and, b) have a chance to get in the practice group, you'll at least have something relevant on your resume and some of the partners will likely be former AUSA's or federal defenders with connections to their old office. But that's really unlikely to happen. Just hope you end up in some lit practice that lends itself to gov work later, e.g., if you end up in labor and employment lit, it would be feasible to transition into an AG's office doing similar work.

tl;dr - there's no formula. Get as much relevant experience as possible, network, and cross your fingers.

[Anonymous User]

I did this: started out in BigLaw and eventually left for a public defender position, although I am no longer a PD. One nuance: I did postconviction defense, so the fact that I had clerkship and BigLaw experience was viewed as beneficial in a way that it would not have been for a trial PD gig, and similarly the fact that BigLaw did not send me into court a lot was not viewed as a huge disadvantage. Here are some thoughts for you:

1. Many public interest opportunities will be off limits when you come from a BigLaw background. When I was looking to make the leap, I encountered a lot of hostility from nonprofits and from some ideologically-committed government offices (incl. in criminal law). They viewed me as less committed to their causes because I'd not been focused on them from 1L year, and often were explicit about the fact that they wanted to "reward" with jobs people who had committed all along, as opposed to me. Many offices also fear that you will be golden handcuffed and will return to the private sector (which I did, by the way, so this fear actually wasn't unreasonable on their part), and that you will be accustomed to support (paralegals, assistants, proofreaders, comp'd dinners and transit home, etc.) that they cannot provide. In a field like public defender work, where burnout and disillusionment are high, they may also feel that someone without proof of a longstanding ideological commitment to the work is more likely to burnout - this ended up being true at least in my case, so it's hard for me to fault them for this.

2. Do as much pro bono work as you can, but understand that this does not in ANY way make you look like a truly public interest-minded type to people committed to public interest. I had very high pro bono hours (pushing 700 hrs/year) in BigLaw, and I was at a firm that was supportive of this level of pro bono commitment and credited it fully. The problem is that when you are a junior associate pulling down 160-200K+ for your "pro bono" efforts with a nice skyline view and with lots of support staff, this is not impressive to people who are scrapping away in the trenches for 45K, doing their own secretarial work and sitting in a rundown government windowless office or cubicle. In other words, it is absolutely necessary that you do lots of pro bono to make the transition that you want to make, but don't expect people to be impressed by your "commitment" to social justice as evidenced by fully-compensated pro bono work.

3. Debt is not generally viewed in the public interest world as a valid excuse to defer seeking full-time PI jobs. Everyone has debt; the diehards who are committed to serving low-income populations fight to make it happen despite their debt, particularly in this IBR era. Of course, many law schools offer LRAP programs, and if you are eligible for one of those, be aware that your debt will be viewed as even less of an excuse for not pursuing PD work immediately. (This is something I also encountered; I went to a school that offered very generous loan repayment, so my choice to pay off my loans via BigLaw was viewed as a volitional and less-than-admirable choice by many potential employers.)

4. It may help to go out of your way to network with PDs and get your story/goals out there informally to higher-ups in the offices you are targeting.

5. If you're planning on doing a PD rotation from BigLaw as a junior associate, make very sure that your firm allows people in the relevant class year to do the rotation. I've been at a couple different BigLaw firms in my time, and those programs are typically intended for senior associates in whom the firm wants to make an investment. My current firm requires you to be at least in your sixth year and to have spent two years at the firm before you can even express interest in the program - *and then* the firm decides who they want to send, based significantly on their assessment of those people's partnership prospects and commitment to the firm. It's understandable: they are paying your full salary for three months while reaping absolutely no profit from your work. It's a program intended for people the firm really wants to invest in, and who frankly are not deemed to be flight risks. So just make very sure that the firm you go to has a different view, if you want to use this option to transition. (EDIT: Note that many firms prefer for you go to the DA's office and may even pressure you to do so, usually due to the perception or reality that the DA's office rotations lead to more trials - and what the firm is paying for is for you to do trials.)

6. I'm not clear on whether you've ever worked as a public defender; you mention that you were in public interest your first summer, but don't say it was PD. Before pursuing this work, make very, very sure it's an emotionally sustainable fit for you. I dealt only with homicide cases in my time as a PD, and they took a grueling emotional toll. My worldview became much more dark, in a way that I'm not sure is reversible. There's something about dealing about the most extreme crimes in society that changes you - I think defenders, prosecutors, police officers, criminal judges, all live it in different ways. If you are intending to practice in violent felonies, do everything you can to make sure it's right for you before starting. You are going to make significant financial and practical sacrifices to do the work, and it's a job that only a few people find emotionally sustaining rather than draining. Be sure you're one of the former. (I've never done "lighter" crimes only - juvie, misdos, mostly drug offenses, etc. That experience is probably very different and frankly easier, though I can't say for sure.)

I think that if you are truly serious about being a public defender, you should try to go straight into that work from your clerkship, for these reasons:

- Shows greater commitment
- Even if you are not successful, you can honestly still explain that when you try to transition later. When questioned why you went for the private sector money, you can explain that you tried vigorously to prioritize a PD gig, but were not successful, and you've been trying to fight your way back to that work ever since (as evidenced by your pro bono, involvement w/relevant bar association sections, etc.)
- BigLaw (or other well-compensated civil litigation) practice is actually not very relevant at all to the work that you do as a trial PD. You won't be growing much in your chosen career path when you are at a firm, and you'll be disadvantaging yourself in getting the job you truly want.

On the flip side, if you are ambivalent/unsure about PD work, it may actually be "safer" to set yourself up in private practice first, in terms of post-PD exit options. I can say more about this if you need me to.

[Anonymous User]

*note, NOT the OP*

I did this: started out in BigLaw and eventually left for a public defender position...

Hey, thank you so much for this bro. I have thought about this a LOT, and told myself that if I were independently wealthy I would have been a PD. In the end, who knows, but mad respect to you for giving it a shot and thanks for posting

Where on the PD did you start? If you lateral as a 3-6th yr BigLaw lit associate, would they pay you as a 1st yr PD straight out of law school, given that your skills are probably not much better than theirs, as far as trial ct advocacy etc? Or could you expect a slightly higher pay grade? And, was this answer different for your particular case, where you are not at the trial ct level?

And thanks again.

[Anonymous User]

You're welcome. (I'm a female, so can't claim 'bro' status, though ).

I started as a third-year defender, which meant I got paid almost 20K more than the first years. My office credited my two clerkships but did not credit my junior associate years in BigLaw. My boss had to "push" administratively to make the two years' credit happen with the government bureaucrats, who wanted me to start as a first-year. Note, however, that my boss wanted to credit those years because I'd done habeas work during my clerkships, which was obviously relevant to the position for which I was being hired.

I don't fully know the answer to your question about how this would differ at the trial level. The few ADAs and PDs I've known who have come from BigLaw usually get some level of credit for their years of practice experience, but often not 1:1. So a fourth year BigLaw associate might come in as a second or third year PD. I think it's rare to force experienced attorneys to start as first years, but that's based on a sample size of only a few people.