Family Law Forum

[Anonymous User]

I know that Family Law isn't the most talked about topic here, but does anyone know how one could go about getting a family law job in the midwest, preferably Chicago.

[smallfirmassociate]

The same as you go about getting any other job, I suppose. Depending on the market and law school, you probably have firms at OCI who do some family law. Then there's networking, mass mailing, looking for listings, etc.

[GOATlawman]

Bountiful on Craigslist

[Johann]

There's like like two good family law firms in Chicago. Berger Schatz and Schiller ducantu. The rest are kinda shitlawwy but you basically need to go on martindale and search for family law attorneys and email them all and tell them you're interested in being a family law attorney and want to learn more. Then stay in touch with them and ask them if they need clerk help while you're a student. Then hopefully they keep you on. Or just find a job at A Family Law Firm and clerk at it while in law school. I know lots of people at family law firms. They all worked there part time as a student before getting hired full time. All are very small shops. They all make that lower bimodal for salary. It drives them all crazy too. Family law is like all court with batshit clients as a heads up.

[BeautifulSW]

JDM's description could just as easily apply here in the Southern New Mexico/El Paso area.

Make no mistake; even a solo in the right market can do pretty well in Family Law but brother, you will earn every lousy cent of what you collect and also every cent you DON'T collect.

You need a very hard heart, the ability to refuse to accept a case until the retainer check clears and to withdraw instantly upon the retainer becoming exhausted, and the patience to deal with people at their very worst. "Batshit" is barely an adequate descriptor.

But, you can make a practice just about anywhere, divorcing couples frequently have at least some money to pay you (and the more money they have the more bitter, drawn out and expensive the divorce will be), and you can have much of the grunt work done by a decent paralegal.

Enjoy!

[Anonymous User]

OP here.

Thanks for the info guys. I'm well aware of Berger Schatz & Schiller Ducanto & Fleck and for multiple reasons I don't want to work for them (I know people at both who hate their lives). My ultimate goal would be to start my own family law practice in IL. I would just like a place to train me so I can actually give good representation to clients. Any advice about family law would be appreciated, including marketing and getting clients.

Also I've been kicking around the idea of clerking for a family law judge out of law school. Would I be competitive for a family law clerkship (Regional Tier 1, Top 20%, Moot Court, No Journal). I don't care where the clerkship is as long as it is in IL. Any clerkship application advice would be appreciated as well.

[mandimeoutof10]

OP here.

Thanks for the info guys. I'm well aware of Berger Schatz & Schiller Ducanto & Fleck and for multiple reasons I don't want to work for them (I know people at both who hate their lives). My ultimate goal would be to start my own family law practice in IL. I would just like a place to train me so I can actually give good representation to clients. Any advice about family law would be appreciated, including marketing and getting clients.

Also I've been kicking around the idea of clerking for a family law judge out of law school. Would I be competitive for a family law clerkship (Regional Tier 1, Top 20%, Moot Court, No Journal). I don't care where the clerkship is as long as it is in IL. Any clerkship application advice would be appreciated as well.

Just curious, why do you actively want to be in family law?

[Anonymous User]

I love the thought of working with people during one of the most difficult times in their life. I interned for A Family Law Firm when I was in undergrad and I loved it. I also am doing family law work in a clinic and did some family law during my 1L summer (I'm currently a 2L). On top of that I also want to start my own firm and I believe that family law is one of the best practice areas for a new firm to thrive. To top it all off although I'm ok with making bad money out of law school I know that family law is one of the few areas where you can make decent money if you're at it long enough (I couldn't imagine doing PI or Corporate work so those are out).

[GOATlawman]

Unless you're super legit, 90% of your cases are going to be paper pushing the exact same AJE, Separation agreement, and shared parenting plan form documents for a fixed fee in either dissolutions or uncontested divorces. Typically like $500 or so. It's a volume business unless you're one of the absolute top guys.

Consider getting at least a little experience with consumer bankruptcy to do Chapter 7 and 13. The practices are very similar, and tends to be a lot of overlap in the clientele.

[rebcca]

Family law is an area of the law that deals with family matters and domestic relations, including: marriage, civil unions, and domestic partnerships; adoption and surrogacy. child abuse and child abduction.

[smallfirmassociate]

Unless you're super legit, 90% of your cases are going to be paper pushing the exact same AJE, Separation agreement, and shared parenting plan form documents for a fixed fee in either dissolutions or uncontested divorces. Typically like $500 or so. It's a volume business unless you're one of the absolute top guys.

I don't know what jurisdiction you're describing, but I've done a few dozen divorces, and only one was for less than $500. Very few divorces get resolved for less than $1,500. Without going to look at my books, divorces that have hearings are probably more in the $4k - $5k and up range.

In my experience, it's only a volume business inasmuch as any area is a volume business.

[kalvano]

Remember in Entourage where the dude drove his car into the house that his wife locked him out of, as she was burning his work papers in front of him?

Welcome to family law.

[Anonymous User]

Unless you're super legit, 90% of your cases are going to be paper pushing the exact same AJE, Separation agreement, and shared parenting plan form documents for a fixed fee in either dissolutions or uncontested divorces. Typically like $500 or so. It's a volume business unless you're one of the absolute top guys.

Consider getting at least a little experience with consumer bankruptcy to do Chapter 7 and 13. The practices are very similar, and tends to be a lot of overlap in the clientele.

Is there a lot of money to be had in bankruptcy?

[Anonymous User]

Remember in Entourage where the dude drove his car into the house that his wife locked him out of, as she was burning his work papers in front of him?

Welcome to family law.

OP Here: I've seen some pretty messed up stuff even in my limited clinic and summer experiences lol.

[GOATlawman]

Unless you're super legit, 90% of your cases are going to be paper pushing the exact same AJE, Separation agreement, and shared parenting plan form documents for a fixed fee in either dissolutions or uncontested divorces. Typically like $500 or so. It's a volume business unless you're one of the absolute top guys.

I don't know what jurisdiction you're describing, but I've done a few dozen divorces, and only one was for less than $500. Very few divorces get resolved for less than $1,500. Without going to look at my books, divorces that have hearings are probably more in the $4k - $5k and up range.

In my experience, it's only a volume business inasmuch as any area is a volume business.

Referring to large city in flyover country.

Was referring to uncontested divorces, typical fee I saw were around $500. I am guessing you are at a pretty well regarded firm if you are getting several divorce cases at $3k+. 99% of the people I talked to were barely able to afford the $3-700 for boilerplate documents in an uncontested divorce. I agree that $1500 is basically the minimum for anything contested.

Unless you're super legit, 90% of your cases are going to be paper pushing the exact same AJE, Separation agreement, and shared parenting plan form documents for a fixed fee in either dissolutions or uncontested divorces. Typically like $500 or so. It's a volume business unless you're one of the absolute top guys.

Consider getting at least a little experience with consumer bankruptcy to do Chapter 7 and 13. The practices are very similar, and tends to be a lot of overlap in the clientele.

Is there a lot of money to be had in bankruptcy?

Chapter 7, which is what most poor people will be filing, will probably be about $300 in fees. Although competition here is on price-the clientele will literally go wherever is cheapest because there is no perceived difference in result by going to someone more expensive. If the client gives you all the documents (you have to make them do a lot of legwork gathering everything) you could probably draft the petition in 3 hours or so. Can be handled by a paralegal at $10/hr if you get the software which does everything for you and makes it ridiculously easy (e.g. Best Case). Will need to go with them to one hearing in court-hopefully you live/work near the courthouse

Chapter 13 is where the real money is. But will only be filed by people with income appx $70k+. You charge a nominal fee to file it (maybe $1-200 or so). But in Chapter 13, the debtor makes payments every month for 3-5 years to the bankruptcy trustee, of which you get additional fees paid to you from every check. You draft the Chapter 13 Plan yourself, so you can make sure you get your "deferred fees" by making sure they will realistically be able to afford their plan payments. As long as they make the payments, you will get paid. Enough of these and you can definitely have a legit stream of income for minimal work. IIRC, total atty fees after 3-5 year repayment will be in the neighborhood of $3-4k.

[vandalvideo]

Remember in Entourage where the dude drove his car into the house that his wife locked him out of, as she was burning his work papers in front of him?

Welcome to family law.

I've seen worse. As someone who is knee deep in Family Law let me tell you about the McDonald Rule for visitation and custody.

No wait, nevermind, I'd rather drink.

[Anonymous User]

Remember in Entourage where the dude drove his car into the house that his wife locked him out of, as she was burning his work papers in front of him?

Welcome to family law.

I've seen worse. As someone who is knee deep in Family Law let me tell you about the McDonald Rule for visitation and custody.

No wait, nevermind, I'd rather drink.

Can you share your family law experience? Why are you doing it? Is the pay good? How did you get the job?

[vandalvideo]

Can you share your family law experience? Why are you doing it? Is the pay good? How did you get the job?

I kind of just fell into Family Law. Did Child Crimes for the DOJ my 1L summer, Clerked for a JDR judge my 1L Spring, and externed for a GAL my 3L Spring. I managed to get a consulting gig for a small firm on Custody and Visitation cases, and used that to get another firm to agree to mentor me for my GAL qualifications. Then I was able to get on the court appointed list for civil commitment hearings by walking into the Clerk's Office and asking nicely.

It was just a bunch of networking really, and none of my peers in my graduating class focused on Family Law. You'd be surprised how many shitlawyers are surprised when I tell them I like the field. I'm currently specialized in UCCJEA and treaty law on cross-jurisdictional custody issues.

Cash flow is sporadic though. I can make 2K a week from just commitment hearings though.

I do it because I have a passion for child advocacy.

[Anonymous User]

Can you share your family law experience? Why are you doing it? Is the pay good? How did you get the job?

I kind of just fell into Family Law. Did Child Crimes for the DOJ my 1L summer, Clerked for a JDR judge my 1L Spring, and externed for a GAL my 3L Spring. I managed to get a consulting gig for a small firm on Custody and Visitation cases, and used that to get another firm to agree to mentor me for my GAL qualifications. Then I was able to get on the court appointed list for civil commitment hearings by walking into the Clerk's Office and asking nicely.

It was just a bunch of networking really, and none of my peers in my graduating class focused on Family Law. You'd be surprised how many shitlawyers are surprised when I tell them I like the field. I'm currently specialized in UCCJEA and treaty law on cross-jurisdictional custody issues.

Cash flow is sporadic though. I can make 2K a week from just commitment hearings though.

I do it because I have a passion for child advocacy.

That sounds incredible. I'm really hoping to clerk for a family law or JDR judge my first year out of law school as I'm also passionate about child advocacy. Is there anything else you would recommend to a current 2L?

[vandalvideo]

That sounds incredible. I'm really hoping to clerk for a family law or JDR judge my first year out of law school as I'm also passionate about child advocacy. Is there anything else you would recommend to a current 2L?

Meet attorneys. Meet lots of attorneys. Family Lawyers are an older demographic of fifty-something old men and women who rarely hear from law students. They are very, very happy to mentor you. It doesn't even need to be a formal internship. Just ask to shadow them. It gives you access to JDR, which is closed to the public most of the time. Being in a JDR court is extremely different from other courts in a jursdiction. Much more informal. Your name will most likely spread like wildfire as one of maybe two or three of your graduating class that even know what a GAL does.

[Anonymous User]

That sounds incredible. I'm really hoping to clerk for a family law or JDR judge my first year out of law school as I'm also passionate about child advocacy. Is there anything else you would recommend to a current 2L?

Meet attorneys. Meet lots of attorneys. Family Lawyers are an older demographic of fifty-something old men and women who rarely hear from law students. They are very, very happy to mentor you. It doesn't even need to be a formal internship. Just ask to shadow them. It gives you access to JDR, which is closed to the public most of the time. Being in a JDR court is extremely different from other courts in a jursdiction. Much more informal. Your name will most likely spread like wildfire as one of maybe two or three of your graduating class that even know what a GAL does.

Do you think I should get in touch with local GALs?

[vandalvideo]

Do you think I should get in touch with local GALs?

It can only help. Especially since some jurisdictions allow you to meet your GAL certification requirements by using your 3L practice certificate.

[Anonymous User]

Do you think I should get in touch with local GALs?

It can only help. Especially since some jurisdictions allow you to meet your GAL certification requirements by using your 3L practice certificate.

I might very well do that. Also, from what I've gathered from your posts, are you technically a solo practioner?

[smallfirmassociate]

Referring to large city in flyover country.

Was referring to uncontested divorces, typical fee I saw were around $500. I am guessing you are at a pretty well regarded firm if you are getting several divorce cases at $3k+. 99% of the people I talked to were barely able to afford the $3-700 for boilerplate documents in an uncontested divorce. I agree that $1500 is basically the minimum for anything contested.

I wonder if your jurisdiction has different requirements that lower the attorney fees. For example, if you have mandatory mediation or certain procedures that encourage a policy of mediated divorces (including waiting periods, etc.), then you're going to have fewer contested proceedings and a much less adversarial process, which means less $$ for lawyers.

In my jurisdiction, everyone waives voluntary mediation and proceeds to take off their gloves. I've had a contested hearing over $300 in household items. It's interesting. I enjoy my family law practice, but I wouldn't want it to be all (or even half) of my practice.

[smallfirmassociate]

Do you think I should get in touch with local GALs?

It can only help. Especially since some jurisdictions allow you to meet your GAL certification requirements by using your 3L practice certificate.

And some jurisdictions don't have requirements to serve as a GAL other than being a licensed attorney. In that case, the key is to sign up on whatever list(s) you need to be on, meet the judge(s), try to get them to understand that you know what you're doing, and handle your first few cases well.

GAL work is rewarding. I'm regularly appointed to serve as a GAL in guardianships / conservatorships for folks with potentially diminished capacity, and it's one of my favorite parts of practice.

The cool thing about doing family law, and what drew me to it, is that whatever you are doing is usually the most important thing in your client's life. You really are helping people. It's not like some of my corporate or government clients where whatever I work on may be important, but only within the context of a 9-5, and some of it is pretty damned uninteresting to boot.