M&A = THE most overrated practice group Forum

[A. Nony Mouse]

As a reminder, the anon feature is to be used only when disclosing sensitive information.

Also, as a reminder, Mods may not know why something is sensitive, so you should err on the side of extreme caution when de-anonymizing a post. I think you guys shouldn't even both making statements like that because it is chilling, but that is your call. Doubly so because it doesn't appear anyone is abusing anon ITT.

Abuse includes using anon when it's unnecessary.

[PennBull]

As a reminder, the anon feature is to be used only when disclosing sensitive information.

Also, as a reminder, Mods may not know why something is sensitive, so you should err on the side of extreme caution when de-anonymizing a post. I think you guys shouldn't even both making statements like that because it is chilling, but that is your call. Doubly so because it doesn't appear anyone is abusing anon ITT.

Abuse includes using anon when it's unnecessary.

for stupid shit, yeah, but if someone is talking shop you shouldn't give a fuck if they're posting anon

[A. Nony Mouse]

Just clarifying the policy. If you want to discuss what anon policy should be, the mod Q&A thread is a better place.

[Old Gregg]

lol

[Anonymous User]

This stuff can actually be found on Chambers, and I think the ratings are quite accurate.

In terms of fees, poster above is right and wrong. If you're representing a VC in a deal, fees are flat but vary depending on the financing stage. Early stage financings tend to have low fees, but are easy to do. For later stage deals, flat fees are substantially higher.

If you're representing the startup in a deal, fees will be higher.

VC deals are "easier" because there's a strong incentive to keep fees low, so complexity is dialed down. VC doesn't want a huge bill or a substantial component of their investment going to fees. But there's also different risk allocation. VCs aren't buying companies, so there isn't as much risk negotiation.

Deals tend to be more quick because early stage companies have fewer documents. As a junior, diligence is easy because there aren't a hundred agreements to review.

On the other hand, your excel skills need to be great. One of the most important components of a VC deal is the cap table. You need to know how to create one, own it, and all the math behind it. Seems easy, but gets difficult when you need to calculate post financing ownership percentages, option pool size, convertible debt, etc.

[Anonymous User]

M&A may be overrated, but right now corporate lawyers are in demand and, from what I have seen/heard, they (if at a good firm) have killer exit options/opportunities right now.

[911 crisis actor]

OP, what is your preferred technique for servicing a client, or clients as the case may be?

[WhirledWorld]

man fuck law.

so what transactional practices suck the least? someone plz do a ranking. corp securities? real estate?

OK real talk.

Practice Groups by Best Quality of Life

1. Tax/Labor/ERISA etc. -- Being that this is law, the best practice group still really sucks. You're still beholden to the Almighty Deal schedule, and [trigger warning] Closings will still make sure you miss your own mother's funeral. Not to mention "Tax" or "ERISA attorney" is about the least sexy phrase that could ever show up on a business card. People may assume you have ED. But at the cost of your dignity, you get low, steady billables and no pressure to solicit work since it comes to you through the firm. Plus, you're on the other side of the dick-sucking equation, since deal lawyers now have to suck your dick to get you to do anything. And if you want, you usually can just ignore their calls and emails and hide, and there's not much the deal lawyer can do to make you work since he's probably too scared to ask a partner in your group to get you to do it. Plus, green eyeshades can help mask your inevitable and inexorably receding hairline.

2. Litigation-- Doc review will make your eyes bleed, you'll spend hours searching for case law that doesn't exist but the client/partner won't take that for an answer, living with plaintiffs' lawyers is like living on the wrong side of a mosquito net, and on your deathbed you'll realize to your horror that you spent your whole mercenary life working for the bad guys. BUT, as aforementioned, there's only one dick to suck, and you're the only one who knows how to suck it. So even though your billables are high, they're predictable (ish). That means a couple things: 1) your billables will be steady and you'll work like 9-7 and then 10-12 consistently, so you won't worry about not billing enough to be fired nor will you worry about billing too much that you'll lose all your friends, and 2) your free time will actually be free... ish. When you depart Biglaw, a flashing light on a Blackberry won't cause PTSD.

3. Leveraged Finance and Real Estate -- You're still a deal support group of sorts, but you'll work a lot closer to the deal team. So you won't be able to duck and hide when the assigning attorney's number shows up on caller ID. And your billables are way higher than e.g. tax. (RE groups running their own deals get bumped down a couple spots in the rankings).

4. Debt -- Now we're onto the people that run their own deals and thus are first in line when the client unzips his pants. Debt sucks in particular just because of the variety and diversity of dicks to be sucked - - each deal has a million parties, from trustees and guarantors and lenders and bankers, and each is on a Viagra bender. The upside here is the relative rarity of dataroom waterboarding, particularly on the borrower side. Also (generally speaking) there are less fire drills and generally less pressure.

5. Bankruptcy -- The upside is that, like other litigators, you're the only one who knows how to suck the bankruptcy judge's dick. The downside is that unlike lit, there are a million other dicks constantly flying at you. Every class of securities, their representatives, bankers, the company, the court -- it's a real clusterfuck. And it's non-stop fire drills. Combine all that with the unpredictability of deal work and it's not a good time.

6. Equity -- "The lawyer's going to the printer's" is how attorneys say "the horse is going to the glue house." But seriously, there is no boner harder than that of a client launching an IPO. I think they snort lines of ground-up Cialis. Don't get me wrong, IPO's sound like sexy work, and they can be, but most of the time you'll be sharing the green eye shades with the accountants, particularly on the underwriter side where it's constant diligence. To top it off, there's no "off" button on the fire alarm -- everyone's always panicking. You pretty much work in a boiler room.

7. M&A -- I believe I've already covered this, but to summarize, 1) data room waterboarding, 2) limited drafting opportunities, 3) the sheer volume of dicks you have to suck, 4) super high billables, 5) no predictability.

Practice Groups by Exit Options

1. Issuer/Borrower-Side Corporate Finance -- In my experience, these guys get the most (and often the best) in house offers. If you think about it, it makes sense -- businesses that need huge amounts of capital inflows typically are in growth mode and will typically need more lawyers. These lawyers also get a lot of client contact, so you develop relationships that can pay off. Deals take less time to close, so the lawyers running them get exposed to more companies. And I think it helps that you bring valuable real lawyering skills that companies often need (e.g. securities knowledge, how to draft risk factors for their quarterly reports, drafting, diligence, etc.).

2. Buy-side M&A -- Typically, companies that buy other companies are expanding into new markets (geographically or product-wise), and they also typically are big enough to need a large in-house department. You get lots of exposure to those in-house lawyers who could be your coworkers. And say what you will about dick-sucking and project management, they're highly valued skills.

3. Lender-side Finance and Sell-side M&A -- You still get client contact, but your client isn't growing (and with M&A, is often having headcount reduced) so there's less opportunities. Your skills are still highly valued though. You're just more likely to find your exit through networking or a posting than through your deal contacts (compared to the folks on the other side).

4. Tax/Labor -- You may not think green eyeshades are a sexy look, but large businesses do. Seriously, I know a handful of companies with over 100 in-house tax attorneys. You don't get as much client contact, but there's enough work that companies will often be hiring even if they don't know you.

--Big Drop Off--

5. Real estate -- The RE lawyers I know have mostly gone to other firms, but I guess there are the Donald Trumps and REITs and development shops you can go to? I think part of the problem is that they're smaller and rely less on large in-house departments. But I'm not super knowledgeable in this area -- maybe someone can chip in here?

6. Bankruptcy -- Similar to RE. Debtors are rarely in a position to hire anyone. Lenders might hire a few folks. Distressed deal shops might hire a few folks, but they're also pretty small. There are some exits into the finance side of distressed dealmaking, but they're super rare and you need a finance background.

7. Litigation -- There just aren't many good-paying exits. Lots of government/enforcement work with a good schedule but a steep paycut. There's clerking, AUSA, there's going to smaller firms, there's a small number of in-house positions for firms that have a steady stream of litigation. But it really seems the options are limited. And they're all shockingly-competitive.

That's my $0.05.

[goden]

Wow. Thank you.

[FSK]

0. Not being a lawyer.

[Single-Malt-Liquor]

Wow. Thank you.

[PennBull]

Something that gets lost in some of the better exit option groups (corp-finance, m&a) is that a lot of growing companies look to hire attorneys who just did "important work" at "important places." I've heard of countless people ending up as [some tiny, irrelevant-to-biglaw type of law] lawyers for major companies just because they sucked dick for a few years.

I currently want to do M&A because I think it gives a pretty wide canvas where to end up, as exit options don't always seek out the professional skills you've developed. Kind of like law firm hiring --> law school education, lots of places are just looking for data points of high-level competency and trust that you'll be good at the position they want their dick sucked they're looking to hire you for

[FSK]

Something that gets lost in some of the better exit option groups (corp-finance, m&a) is that a lot of growing companies look to hire attorneys who just did "important work" at "important places." I've heard of countless people ending up as [some tiny, irrelevant-to-biglaw type of law] lawyers for major companies just because they sucked dick for a few years.

I currently want to do M&A because I think it gives a pretty wide canvas where to end up, as exit options don't always seek out the professional skills you've developed. Kind of like law firm hiring --> law school education, lots of places are just looking for data points of high-level competency and trust that you'll be good at the position they want their dick sucked they're looking to hire you for

Law & Business are very white shoe -> prestige matters until show you bring in business or revenue.

[skers]

I will say that from what I've seen nothing even begins to touch bankruptcy for absolute worst practice area.

[Desert Fox]

Lit isn't really a practice group.

[FSK]

Lit isn't really a practice group.

Lit is as general as corp. Should be looking at things like Environmental lit v. IP lit v. Commercial Lit v. White Collar, etc....

[gk101]

Lit isn't really a practice group.

Lit is as general as corp. Should be looking at things like Environmental lit v. IP lit v. Commercial Lit v. White Collar, etc....

I am not sure if this is limited to IP lit, but I have seen clients disfavor attorneys listed as general litigators. Last pitch meeting that I was a part of, the client specifically asked for attorneys with IP background to be the only ones staffed on their cases. I have no idea how the different Lit groups compare with each other though

[lacrossebrother]

Lit isn't really a practice group.

Lit is as general as corp. Should be looking at things like Environmental lit v. IP lit v. Commercial Lit v. White Collar, etc....

I am not sure if this is limited to IP lit, but I have seen clients disfavor attorneys listed as general litigators. Last pitch meeting that I was a part of, the client specifically asked for attorneys with IP background to be the only ones staffed on their cases. I have no idea how the different Lit groups compare with each other though

thought it was common to combine ip litigators and "general", more experience trial lawyers (i.e. med mal)

[TTTooKewl]

And say what you will about dick-sucking and project management, they're highly valued skills.

Thanks for two great posts.

[baal hadad]

Lit isn't really a practice group.

Also nowadays it seems no one wants to say he's a general "commercial litigator" or whatever

[Anonymous User]

man fuck law.

so what transactional practices suck the least? someone plz do a ranking. corp securities? real estate?

OK real talk.

Practice Groups by Best Quality of Life

1. Tax/Labor/ERISA etc. -- Being that this is law, the best practice group still really sucks. You're still beholden to the Almighty Deal schedule, and [trigger warning] Closings will still make sure you miss your own mother's funeral. Not to mention "Tax" or "ERISA attorney" is about the least sexy phrase that could ever show up on a business card. People may assume you have ED. But at the cost of your dignity, you get low, steady billables and no pressure to solicit work since it comes to you through the firm. Plus, you're on the other side of the dick-sucking equation, since deal lawyers now have to suck your dick to get you to do anything. And if you want, you usually can just ignore their calls and emails and hide, and there's not much the deal lawyer can do to make you work since he's probably too scared to ask a partner in your group to get you to do it. Plus, green eyeshades can help mask your inevitable and inexorably receding hairline.

2. Litigation-- Doc review will make your eyes bleed, you'll spend hours searching for case law that doesn't exist but the client/partner won't take that for an answer, living with plaintiffs' lawyers is like living on the wrong side of a mosquito net, and on your deathbed you'll realize to your horror that you spent your whole mercenary life working for the bad guys. BUT, as aforementioned, there's only one dick to suck, and you're the only one who knows how to suck it. So even though your billables are high, they're predictable (ish). That means a couple things: 1) your billables will be steady and you'll work like 9-7 and then 10-12 consistently, so you won't worry about not billing enough to be fired nor will you worry about billing too much that you'll lose all your friends, and 2) your free time will actually be free... ish. When you depart Biglaw, a flashing light on a Blackberry won't cause PTSD.

3. Leveraged Finance and Real Estate -- You're still a deal support group of sorts, but you'll work a lot closer to the deal team. So you won't be able to duck and hide when the assigning attorney's number shows up on caller ID. And your billables are way higher than e.g. tax. (RE groups running their own deals get bumped down a couple spots in the rankings).

4. Debt -- Now we're onto the people that run their own deals and thus are first in line when the client unzips his pants. Debt sucks in particular just because of the variety and diversity of dicks to be sucked - - each deal has a million parties, from trustees and guarantors and lenders and bankers, and each is on a Viagra bender. The upside here is the relative rarity of dataroom waterboarding, particularly on the borrower side. Also (generally speaking) there are less fire drills and generally less pressure.

5. Bankruptcy -- The upside is that, like other litigators, you're the only one who knows how to suck the bankruptcy judge's dick. The downside is that unlike lit, there are a million other dicks constantly flying at you. Every class of securities, their representatives, bankers, the company, the court -- it's a real clusterfuck. And it's non-stop fire drills. Combine all that with the unpredictability of deal work and it's not a good time.

6. Equity -- "The lawyer's going to the printer's" is how attorneys say "the horse is going to the glue house." But seriously, there is no boner harder than that of a client launching an IPO. I think they snort lines of ground-up Cialis. Don't get me wrong, IPO's sound like sexy work, and they can be, but most of the time you'll be sharing the green eye shades with the accountants, particularly on the underwriter side where it's constant diligence. To top it off, there's no "off" button on the fire alarm -- everyone's always panicking. You pretty much work in a boiler room.

7. M&A -- I believe I've already covered this, but to summarize, 1) data room waterboarding, 2) limited drafting opportunities, 3) the sheer volume of dicks you have to suck, 4) super high billables, 5) no predictability.

Practice Groups by Exit Options

1. Issuer/Borrower-Side Corporate Finance -- In my experience, these guys get the most (and often the best) in house offers. If you think about it, it makes sense -- businesses that need huge amounts of capital inflows typically are in growth mode and will typically need more lawyers. These lawyers also get a lot of client contact, so you develop relationships that can pay off. Deals take less time to close, so the lawyers running them get exposed to more companies. And I think it helps that you bring valuable real lawyering skills that companies often need (e.g. securities knowledge, how to draft risk factors for their quarterly reports, drafting, diligence, etc.).

2. Buy-side M&A -- Typically, companies that buy other companies are expanding into new markets (geographically or product-wise), and they also typically are big enough to need a large in-house department. You get lots of exposure to those in-house lawyers who could be your coworkers. And say what you will about dick-sucking and project management, they're highly valued skills.

3. Lender-side Finance and Sell-side M&A -- You still get client contact, but your client isn't growing (and with M&A, is often having headcount reduced) so there's less opportunities. Your skills are still highly valued though. You're just more likely to find your exit through networking or a posting than through your deal contacts (compared to the folks on the other side).

4. Tax/Labor -- You may not think green eyeshades are a sexy look, but large businesses do. Seriously, I know a handful of companies with over 100 in-house tax attorneys. You don't get as much client contact, but there's enough work that companies will often be hiring even if they don't know you.

--Big Drop Off--

5. Real estate -- The RE lawyers I know have mostly gone to other firms, but I guess there are the Donald Trumps and REITs and development shops you can go to? I think part of the problem is that they're smaller and rely less on large in-house departments. But I'm not super knowledgeable in this area -- maybe someone can chip in here?

6. Bankruptcy -- Similar to RE. Debtors are rarely in a position to hire anyone. Lenders might hire a few folks. Distressed deal shops might hire a few folks, but they're also pretty small. There are some exits into the finance side of distressed dealmaking, but they're super rare and you need a finance background.

7. Litigation -- There just aren't many good-paying exits. Lots of government/enforcement work with a good schedule but a steep paycut. There's clerking, AUSA, there's going to smaller firms, there's a small number of in-house positions for firms that have a steady stream of litigation. But it really seems the options are limited. And they're all shockingly-competitive.

That's my $0.05.

Where does Project Finance fit in regards to QoL and exit options? Is it on par with leverage finance, borrower-side corporate finance...or does it stand on its own?

[keg411]

Lit isn't really a practice group.

Agreed to some extent. But ultimately all litigation is driven by the court, your time is being driven by the court, and your dick sucking is being driven by the court. So I can see lumping it all together for that list.

That said, there are differences in QOL / exit options, but I'm personally not sure how to break them down except that FCPA is the worst QOL-wise (travel to terrible places + tons of doc review + having to suck the USAO's dick as well as court dick; although the latter is true for most white collar practice) and IP probably has best exit options.

[Anonymous User]

Lit isn't really a practice group.

Agreed to some extent. But ultimately all litigation is driven by the court, your time is being driven by the court, and your dick sucking is being driven by the court. So I can see lumping it all together for that list.

That said, there are differences in QOL / exit options, but I'm personally not sure how to break them down except that FCPA is the worst QOL-wise (travel to terrible places + tons of doc review + having to suck the USAO's dick as well as court dick; although the latter is true for most white collar practice) and IP probably has best exit options.

Do you bill travel time?

[mvp99]

Can we talk about vaginas too?

[Anonymous User]

Lit isn't really a practice group.

Agreed to some extent. But ultimately all litigation is driven by the court, your time is being driven by the court, and your dick sucking is being driven by the court. So I can see lumping it all together for that list.

That said, there are differences in QOL / exit options, but I'm personally not sure how to break them down except that FCPA is the worst QOL-wise (travel to terrible places + tons of doc review + having to suck the USAO's dick as well as court dick; although the latter is true for most white collar practice) and IP probably has best exit options.

Do you bill travel time?

+1, I was under the impression you could bill 24/7 if you are on a 4 day business trip to Indonesia or some shit