Serious q re: Lit exit options Forum

[Anonymous User]

Does this "10-year or bust" mentality also apply to plaintiffs firms?

[DELG]

This is true. It's very firm-dependent, however. Some firms will "counsel you out" at some point. Others might let you stay indefinitely.

what i don't get tho is like, who wants to be an associate at a firm FOR LIFE

no hope of ever being anything else ever

just lifer associate

how do you not kill yourself

[Anonymous User]

Uh....lifer associate sure as hell beats being unemployed when you're in your mid-30s to early-40s.

[DELG]

Uh....lifer associate sure as hell beats being unemployed when you're in your mid-30s to early-40s.

i'm actually not sure that's true

in fact i think that's def not true

[84651846190]

Uh....lifer associate sure as hell beats being unemployed when you're in your mid-30s to early-40s.

You can be unemployed and healthy or employed and with heart disease, diabetes and gout. You can be unemployed and have free time or employed and work 60 hours per week, every week, every year for the rest of your life.

God bless America.

[patogordo]

then you send your kids to law school and hope they do better (they won't)

[A. Nony Mouse]

I may kind of be missing the point, but for Denver, Faegre is biglaw. It's a really small market and even biglaw there is small. So you may have someone who wanted to be in a particular market more than he wanted a particular kind of work. It's also not clear to me how long he's been at Faegre, so it's not clear to me that he won't make partner there (not coming in as partner doesn't mean you never will, right?) - his practice experience wasn't exclusively in firms. But even if that's true, he may not care.

[Frayed Knot]

This guy might be an example of a best-case scenario: http://www.faegrebd.com/joel-sayres

He went from a top, white-shoe litigation boutique to a midlaw firm and still hasn't made partner (after 12 years of practice), despite a COA clerkship, YLS degree and tons of relevant experience. Like I said, this guy is one of the winners. He still gets to practice litigation after (presumably) not making partner.

I'm not sure that's really a best-case outcome. Even from that same firm, there are people who lateraled in from BigLaw and then made partner. http://www.faegrebd.com/thomas-beimers. I won't link to bios for the people I know who followed that path because it would out me, but it's not exactly uncommon.

Plus, I wouldn't be so sure that the guy you linked is stuck as a permanent associate. (Unless you have private info that he is.) It's not uncommon to lose class years/not get class-year credit for clerking when you lateral, so he still might be on a (delayed) partner track.

I've heard from recruiters that quite a few senior litigation associates are essentially unemployable after their 10th year because firms are generally awash with service partners and eager, striving midlevels who can do the same work.

This, however, I think is exactly right. If you're going to do the BigLaw --> midlaw --> midlaw partner transition, it's much better to land in midlaw well before the 10 year mark. You want to have stuck around in BigLaw long enough to have the skills/background that the new firm thinks would make business pitches easier and long enough to have made friends who can send you local counsel business. At the same time, you want to get to the smaller market in time to make all the connections (inside the firm and with clients) that you'll need to make partner. Think 2 to 5 years, not 10 (and even 5 might be too high/mean you need to drop class years).

Also, it really helps if you've been in touch with a/several midlaw firms for a while so that your move looks like part of your long-term plan and you avoid the "BigLaw burnout" stigma.

[911 crisis actor]

Just re-apply for that SCOTUS clerkship imo

[911 crisis actor]

This guy might be an example of a best-case scenario: http://www.faegrebd.com/joel-sayres

He went from a top, white-shoe litigation boutique to a midlaw firm and still hasn't made partner (after 12 years of practice), despite a COA clerkship, YLS degree and tons of relevant experience. Like I said, this guy is one of the winners. He still gets to practice litigation after (presumably) not making partner. I've heard from recruiters that quite a few senior litigation associates are essentially unemployable after their 10th year because firms are generally awash with service partners and eager, striving midlevels who can do the same work.

TBF this guy probably skis all the time and its nbd

[FSK]

Shitigation.

Corp may be number pushing, but at least there's more options.

[911 crisis actor]

*Copies and paste Celotex rule cite for the 1500th time*

I'm a *real* lawyer

[FSK]

*Copies and paste Celotex rule cite for the 1500th time*

I'm a *real* lawyer

Fuck if I'm going to work for a law firm in 10 years.

[84651846190]

This guy might be an example of a best-case scenario: http://www.faegrebd.com/joel-sayres

He went from a top, white-shoe litigation boutique to a midlaw firm and still hasn't made partner (after 12 years of practice), despite a COA clerkship, YLS degree and tons of relevant experience. Like I said, this guy is one of the winners. He still gets to practice litigation after (presumably) not making partner.

I'm not sure that's really a best-case outcome. Even from that same firm, there are people who lateraled in from BigLaw and then made partner. http://www.faegrebd.com/thomas-beimers. I won't link to bios for the people I know who followed that path because it would out me, but it's not exactly uncommon.

Plus, I wouldn't be so sure that the guy you linked is stuck as a permanent associate. (Unless you have private info that he is.) It's not uncommon to lose class years/not get class-year credit for clerking when you lateral, so he still might be on a (delayed) partner track.

I've heard from recruiters that quite a few senior litigation associates are essentially unemployable after their 10th year because firms are generally awash with service partners and eager, striving midlevels who can do the same work.

I think you're underestimating how hard it is to make partner when you're on a "non-traditional" (i.e., lateral or extended) track. The vast majority of people who make partner do so at or before their 10th year.

10+th year associates have the same problem that people without jobs at graduation have: there's a long line of people standing right behind them (in seniority) ready to take their place.

[Frayed Knot]

I think you're underestimating how hard it is to make partner when you're on a "non-traditional" (i.e., lateral or extended) track. The vast majority of people who make partner do so at or before their 10th year.

Yeah, I agree with you that the vast majority would make partner before they're a tenth year.

To be clear, the path I've seen (variations on) several times was more like: clerk for a year, work for a top NY/DC firm for 3 years (2nd year–4th year), lateral to midlaw in a tertiary market, lose a year (i.e., not be given credit for the clerkship after the lateral move), make partner as an 7th/8th year (on the firm's standard track). That gives the attorney time to learn something/build a network at the NY firm and still have a chance to establish themselves in the tertiary market. The guy you linked to certainly wasn't on the track I was talking about.

Of course, it's an open question whether any individual would have been better off just starting in the tertiary market if they had that option.

[nickelanddime]

Although Faegre attorney has an impressive resume, he worked for a nonprofit and clerked as an 8th year - so it's pretty clear that he was not trying to make partner anywhere before. It doesn't look like he was going for a "best case" private practice outcome.

If you have great credentials, you'd probably be better going straight to your home market and starting off midlaw.

[Frayed Knot]

I've heard from recruiters that quite a few senior litigation associates are essentially unemployable after their 10th year because firms are generally awash with service partners and eager, striving midlevels who can do the same work.

Also, I really agree with you about how hard the market is for 10th+ years. I think they missed the magic window for when they should lateral— maybe because they thought they'd make partner/we lied to about their chances. Or because they bought into the pernicious myth that all they needed to worry about was doing good work at their firm because they could "always take calls from recruiters later." My only claim is that lit associates who know that they want to end up as a partner at a firm in a tertiary market have a good shot at doing so if they pay attention to timing and pay attention to the market.

Also, doesn't corporate also have "magic windows" for at least some exits where you can no longer be as competitive if you stick around in BigLaw too long?

[Frayed Knot]

If you have great credentials, you'd probably be better going straight to your home market and starting off midlaw.

That's a fair point. I recently faced that decision and decided to go NY biglaw --> tertiary market midlaw but I was on the fence and can see the argument for going the other way.

[nickelanddime]

If you have great credentials, you'd probably be better going straight to your home market and starting off midlaw.

That's a fair point. I recently faced that decision and decided to go NY biglaw --> tertiary market midlaw but I was on the fence and can see the argument for going the other way.

You can no doubt get there your way. But in general, new litigators will probably have the most options either as a 2L summer or right after clerking.

[Holly Golightly]

P firms are where it's at.

[los blancos]

This thread should be required reading.

-1st year Midlaw litigation associate who doesn't think he'll make partner

[los blancos]

I may kind of be missing the point, but for Denver, Faegre is biglaw. It's a really small market and even biglaw there is small.

Yeah, just looked it up - how can 700+ attorneys not be biglaw?

[84651846190]

I may kind of be missing the point, but for Denver, Faegre is biglaw. It's a really small market and even biglaw there is small.

Yeah, just looked it up - how can 700+ attorneys not be biglaw?

Fair point. I had never heard of it, so I assumed it was midlaw.

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

It seems like people who get 6+ years deep as a biglaw associate really screw themselves. Major city big law ---> mid law secondary market ($100-150k) is pretty viable after 2-4 years.

[los blancos]

It seems like people who get 6+ years deep as a biglaw associate really screw themselves. Major city big law ---> mid law secondary market ($100-150k) is pretty viable after 2-4 years.

Some others can feel free to correct me on this, but...

1) I'm not sure there are really that many people who last 6+ years as associates in BigLaw without making partner. Aren't you usually pushed out before you get that far?

2) My impression is that midlaw/regional biglaw is only a good place to end up long-term insofar as you either:

a) find yourself working under some big-time rainmakers who will pass business down to you when they exit stage right
b) have the personality/connections/drive to hustle, network, and bring clients through the door

It is not easy to show up to a secondary market 2-4 years into a career and start bringing clients through the door within 2-3 years if you don't already have existing ties/connections.