Allen & Overy or Kramer Levin? Forum
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Allen & Overy or Kramer Levin?
Hi everyone,
I'm deciding between these two firms. I'm very interested in litigation, but I still want to have a chance to try out some transactional work. I really care about the culture and people where I end up, and would like to work somewhere this summer that will give me a chance at tier 1 firms in 3L OCI.
A&O:
Pros:
-Great international presence.
-More prestige.
-International opportunities.
-Strong attorneys.
Cons:
-Sharing offices for three years.
-NY office isn't its home base.
-The people didn't seem super exciting/charismatic.
Kramer:
Pros:
-Very strong in NY.
-Band 2 in White Collar.
-Band 3 Elite in General Commercial Litigation.
-Really liked all the people I met with.
Cons:
-Low prestige.
-Top attorneys might not be as good as A&O's top attorneys.
Going on second looks with both firms this coming week, but would love some input.
I'm deciding between these two firms. I'm very interested in litigation, but I still want to have a chance to try out some transactional work. I really care about the culture and people where I end up, and would like to work somewhere this summer that will give me a chance at tier 1 firms in 3L OCI.
A&O:
Pros:
-Great international presence.
-More prestige.
-International opportunities.
-Strong attorneys.
Cons:
-Sharing offices for three years.
-NY office isn't its home base.
-The people didn't seem super exciting/charismatic.
Kramer:
Pros:
-Very strong in NY.
-Band 2 in White Collar.
-Band 3 Elite in General Commercial Litigation.
-Really liked all the people I met with.
Cons:
-Low prestige.
-Top attorneys might not be as good as A&O's top attorneys.
Going on second looks with both firms this coming week, but would love some input.
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Re: Allen & Overy or Kramer Levin?
I loved both firms on callbacks, but if you want lit, I'd go Kramer. "Low prestige" isn't really relevant in this context as Kramer is very well known in NYC for the practices it's strong in, including lit. A&O, while also a great firm, is relatively less prestigious in the NYC market, which is pretty standard for Magic Circle firms. Also their lit group isn't nearly as strong as Kramer's, though it is comparatively more international in scope.
A&O does have the game room, though, so there's that.
A&O does have the game room, though, so there's that.
Also, with respect to this, A&O is probably among the least successful of the Magic Circle in making a dent in NYC. That office is consistently rumored to be a net loss to the firm.911 crisis actor wrote:http://www.americanlawyer.com/id=120262 ... 0911201458
- AntipodeanPhil
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Re: Allen & Overy or Kramer Levin?
I've heard some great things about Kramer Levin. I went on a CB at Allen & Overy last year and wasn't impressed. The associates I met with were saying positive things, but they seemed to struggle to say them with any conviction. Nobody seemed happy, and the office had a bad vibe. I talked to a couple of other people at my school who went on callbacks and nobody seemed to like it there.
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Re: Allen & Overy or Kramer Levin?
Thank you everyone for your input. More, please.
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Re: Allen & Overy or Kramer Levin?
I was making this choice last year and went with Kramer. I wanted litigation, and I think A&O really can't compare. I have some international proclivities, but ultimately I felt I didn't wanna do capital markets or project finance work that gets you into international work.
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Re: Allen & Overy or Kramer Levin?
Can the people who voted for A&O post why?
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Re: Allen & Overy or Kramer Levin?
How was your experience there this past summer?Anonymous User wrote:I was making this choice last year and went with Kramer. I wanted litigation, and I think A&O really can't compare. I have some international proclivities, but ultimately I felt I didn't wanna do capital markets or project finance work that gets you into international work.
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Re: Allen & Overy or Kramer Levin?
I was deciding between Kramer, a small plaintiff's boutique, and a V30 biglaw firm. I made the decision to go to the V30, because I think I could be good at both transactional and lit and the firm I'm going to is tops in the former and very good in the latter, and a growing white collar practice.
I'll say this: I have a lot of friends at Kramer, and I think overall the people are pretty amazing, and that the work is super high level and interesting. You'll absolutely get more responsibility right out of the gate because they staff pretty leanly. But I think Kramer is pretty much a prestigious midlaw firm that is better if you want to jump ship as a midlevel rather than to go straight into. Something else that worried me a bit is that their approach is to literally keep some people on as 12-15 year associates. They try to spin that for you but the impression I've gotten from speaking to a lot of folks is that a lot of people like the job security, but hate that it's basically an excuse for partners to not promote from within.
The last thing for me was exit options. My plan is to clerk after a few years and then try for SDNY/EDNY/DNJ/NYDA. I figure that it helped me to have some homegrown NYC prestige to do that, and while Kramer has a lot of folks who lateral over from big prosecutor shops, my impression is emphatically not that people are leaving to go to said shops. As for corporate/transactional, the bankruptcy practice at Kramer looks pretty dope and has handled some pretty high profile junior creditor work, with a smattering of people who actually bridge the gap between things like negotiating the DIP vs. standing up and arguing a motion or conducting a bankruptcy hearing.
Overall I don't really think you can go wrong between these two. A&O and Kramer are both fantastic firms. As I've indicated, were I in your shoes I'd probably go with A&O but I think it's also a matter of what you see your career path looking like, your experience with transactional vs. litigation (I was a biglaw paralegal before law school), and your ability to pick apart the shit from the sugar in every firm pitch and what appeals to you or doesn't.
I'll say this: I have a lot of friends at Kramer, and I think overall the people are pretty amazing, and that the work is super high level and interesting. You'll absolutely get more responsibility right out of the gate because they staff pretty leanly. But I think Kramer is pretty much a prestigious midlaw firm that is better if you want to jump ship as a midlevel rather than to go straight into. Something else that worried me a bit is that their approach is to literally keep some people on as 12-15 year associates. They try to spin that for you but the impression I've gotten from speaking to a lot of folks is that a lot of people like the job security, but hate that it's basically an excuse for partners to not promote from within.
The last thing for me was exit options. My plan is to clerk after a few years and then try for SDNY/EDNY/DNJ/NYDA. I figure that it helped me to have some homegrown NYC prestige to do that, and while Kramer has a lot of folks who lateral over from big prosecutor shops, my impression is emphatically not that people are leaving to go to said shops. As for corporate/transactional, the bankruptcy practice at Kramer looks pretty dope and has handled some pretty high profile junior creditor work, with a smattering of people who actually bridge the gap between things like negotiating the DIP vs. standing up and arguing a motion or conducting a bankruptcy hearing.
Overall I don't really think you can go wrong between these two. A&O and Kramer are both fantastic firms. As I've indicated, were I in your shoes I'd probably go with A&O but I think it's also a matter of what you see your career path looking like, your experience with transactional vs. litigation (I was a biglaw paralegal before law school), and your ability to pick apart the shit from the sugar in every firm pitch and what appeals to you or doesn't.
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Re: Allen & Overy or Kramer Levin?
Anonymous User wrote:I was deciding between Kramer, a small plaintiff's boutique, and a V30 biglaw firm. I made the decision to go to the V30, because I think I could be good at both transactional and lit and the firm I'm going to is tops in the former and very good in the latter, and a growing white collar practice.
I'll say this: I have a lot of friends at Kramer, and I think overall the people are pretty amazing, and that the work is super high level and interesting. You'll absolutely get more responsibility right out of the gate because they staff pretty leanly. But I think Kramer is pretty much a prestigious midlaw firm that is better if you want to jump ship as a midlevel rather than to go straight into. Something else that worried me a bit is that their approach is to literally keep some people on as 12-15 year associates. They try to spin that for you but the impression I've gotten from speaking to a lot of folks is that a lot of people like the job security, but hate that it's basically an excuse for partners to not promote from within.
The last thing for me was exit options. My plan is to clerk after a few years and then try for SDNY/EDNY/DNJ/NYDA. I figure that it helped me to have some homegrown NYC prestige to do that, and while Kramer has a lot of folks who lateral over from big prosecutor shops, my impression is emphatically not that people are leaving to go to said shops. As for corporate/transactional, the bankruptcy practice at Kramer looks pretty dope and has handled some pretty high profile junior creditor work, with a smattering of people who actually bridge the gap between things like negotiating the DIP vs. standing up and arguing a motion or conducting a bankruptcy hearing.
Overall I don't really think you can go wrong between these two. A&O and Kramer are both fantastic firms. As I've indicated, were I in your shoes I'd probably go with A&O but I think it's also a matter of what you see your career path looking like, your experience with transactional vs. litigation (I was a biglaw paralegal before law school), and your ability to pick apart the shit from the sugar in every firm pitch and what appeals to you or doesn't.
Thank you for the feedback. I'm currently leaning toward Kramer b/c I liked the vibe there much better and they're a lot better in lit. Though, I do plan on applying for fed clerkships in NY in January, and right now, I have grades that can get me in most places outside NY, and if I improve my grades somewhat this semester, a decent chance at something SDNY or EDNY. Though, I'm not banking on that. I also plan on doing 3L OCI.
Do you think that A&O gives me better options come 3L OCI for top lit firms?
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Re: Allen & Overy or Kramer Levin?
Kramer has a pretty open revolving door with clerkships in EDNY, for what it's worth. This is worth considering now that judges are increasingly aware that they can hire people who have been out in private practice for a few years and therefore know something about lawyering. Also, just the strength of their lit practice as a whole, compared to A&O's, is a plus for someone looking to clerk and go the prosecutorial route.
With respect to bankruptcy, Kramer punches way above its Vault ranking in that arena. You'll regularly see them across the table from your Kirklands and Milbanks and Weils. A&O is also a major restructuring player, though again, with more emphasis on international matters and less emphasis on litigation. You'd get relatively more Chapter 15s and work dealing with the domestic components of a UK-based restructuring, for example, than your straight Chapter 11 reorgs.
With respect to bankruptcy, Kramer punches way above its Vault ranking in that arena. You'll regularly see them across the table from your Kirklands and Milbanks and Weils. A&O is also a major restructuring player, though again, with more emphasis on international matters and less emphasis on litigation. You'd get relatively more Chapter 15s and work dealing with the domestic components of a UK-based restructuring, for example, than your straight Chapter 11 reorgs.
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