Tell Me About Structured Finance Forum

[Anonymous User]

Thinking of joining this practice group. Seems kind of niche, isn't ranked by chambers, it's a small group at most firms.

Any thoughts on this kind of work? Interesting? Pros/cons? Too niche? Growing/declining practice?

Also what are the exit options for a structured Finance Attorney? And what firms/lawyers are particularly known for this kind of work?

[patogordo]

basically you'll have clients who (a) have a structured settlement and (b) need cash now

[DportIA]

I believe the leading firm is JJ WENTWORTH, 877 CASH NOW LLP.

Just kidding. When I read this, I thought structured finance referred to mezzanine finance or lower-priority debt deals.

[Anonymous User]

This is CLOs and securitization right? I've gotten very bad vibes from it if so. I had one partner during a callback where that practice group was on the table tell me straight up to run away from the structured finance group. Not because they were bad but because the market was bad. I had a partner in that same group tell me that things had been very slow and that for a long time he did nothing but litigation support and he was starting to think he had basically become a litigator. He finished that story off by weakly telling me it wasn't "so bad" anymore. There was a distinct emphasis on "so."

[Anonymous User]

basically you'll have clients who (a) have a structured settlement and (b) need cash now

This is wrong.

[Anonymous User]

Yea I was talking about securitization.

I had one partner during a callback where that practice group was on the table tell me straight up to run away from the structured finance group. Not because they were bad but because the market was bad. I had a partner in that same group tell me that things had been very slow and that for a long time he did nothing but litigation support and he was starting to think he had basically become a litigator. He finished that story off by weakly telling me it wasn't "so bad" anymore. There was a distinct emphasis on "so."

What year was this? I had heard that a few years ago these groups were almost completely halted due to the backlash against MBS's, so that may explain your interactions. However, the reason I posted this thread is because I have hard that right now these groups are growing significantly.

[notgreat]

basically you'll have clients who (a) have a structured settlement and (b) need cash now

This is wrong.

He was joking.

[DELG]

on one hand, i want to discourage you from ruining your life. on the other, if you think you want to do this, maybe it's too late?

[Anonymous User]

Yea I was talking about securitization.

I had one partner during a callback where that practice group was on the table tell me straight up to run away from the structured finance group. Not because they were bad but because the market was bad. I had a partner in that same group tell me that things had been very slow and that for a long time he did nothing but litigation support and he was starting to think he had basically become a litigator. He finished that story off by weakly telling me it wasn't "so bad" anymore. There was a distinct emphasis on "so."

What year was this? I had heard that a few years ago these groups were almost completely halted due to the backlash against MBS's, so that may explain your interactions. However, the reason I posted this thread is because I have hard that right now these groups are growing significantly.

This was this year (3L OCI) at a V10. I also heard that structured finance is coming back but based on the two firms I've had some experience discussing the practice group with (NYC v15 and v10) it doesn't exactly seem to be booming although it may be coming back. I think I remember reading headlines about a boom in securitizing consumer loans and stuff like that but from those two firms it didn't seem like it. Idk if it's representative of the practice at other firms though.

[Anonymous User]

anyone have anything of substantive to contribute? i.e. something other than "don't ruin your life" or "run far away." While vague negative representations can be useful, I also acknowledge that most litigators say 'don't do corporate' and most transactional attorneys say 'don't do litigation', so I suspect some of that is going on.

FWIW, the pros I have heard are that juniors in structured groups do much more substantive work than juniors in M&A, cap markets, etc because there is no due diligence and mainly drafting/negotiation from day 1. I've also heard that since the groups tend to be lean, unless the entire bottom of securitization drops out, its a relatively safe group to be in. (in other words, when layoffs are needed, firms trim the fat on over-subscribed corporate departments who were beefed up for diligence-heavy deal-flow).

But i'm sure there are lots of cons.

[911 crisis actor]

Historically firms have never trimmed the fat by firing associates working in structured finance

[Anonymous User]

anyone have anything of substantive to contribute? i.e. something other than "don't ruin your life" or "run far away." While vague negative representations can be useful, I also acknowledge that most litigators say 'don't do corporate' and most transactional attorneys say 'don't do litigation', so I suspect some of that is going on.

FWIW, the pros I have heard are that juniors in structured groups do much more substantive work than juniors in M&A, cap markets, etc because there is no due diligence and mainly drafting/negotiation from day 1. I've also heard that since the groups tend to be lean, unless the entire bottom of securitization drops out, its a relatively safe group to be in. (in other words, when layoffs are needed, firms trim the fat on over-subscribed corporate departments who were beefed up for diligence-heavy deal-flow).

But i'm sure there are lots of cons.

Structured finance is one of the worst fields to be in, period. Aside from the fact that it was victim to The Great Culling in 2008, where whole firms that focused on structured finance collapsed, the practice is commoditized and the deals are cookie cutter. "Juniors receive responsibility" because most deals involve nothing more than cutting and pasting the right names in the forms or precedent and making sure you don't forget any closing deliverables (this is true generally for corporate work, so if corporate associates are telling you that structured finance transactions are particularly mind-numbing, brainless and repetitive, that should scare the shit out of you). The firms/groups that continue to do structured finance (what's left of it, anyways) make a living off it by churning the maximum number of deals, which means maximum possible leverage and the least possible partner oversight. That is not the sort of "responsibility" you want as an associate - remember that when my secretary does my billing, she also has "responsibility" because I don't check her work because only an idiot could screw it up.

You learn no marketable skills - the lateral market for structured finance associates is limited and there are oodles and oodles of pre-2007 lawyers with that experience who can slot in as counsel or perma-associates and will be perfectly content to draw their $200k per year ad infinitum. There is no other use for the experience you develop as a structured finance associate - banks haven't hired folks with that experience in 6 years and there's no sign of them hiring new folks in the future. If you're really lucky, someone in Charlotte will die of a heart attack and you can slot in as an assistant general counsel at BofA making $120k. Whoopie.

And there hasn't been a structured finance partner made anywhere since 2007.

But other than that, its a great field! You'll get in everywhere you apply.

[Anonymous User]

Sorry to bump a really old thread bur does anyone know how much things have changed in the past 8 years?

[Anonymous User]

Sorry to bump a really old thread bur does anyone know how much things have changed in the past 8 years?

Structured finance is very hot and busy right now so the above advice is dated. That said, it's still shit work

[Anonymous User]

Sorry to bump a really old thread bur does anyone know how much things have changed in the past 8 years?

Structured finance is very hot and busy right now so the above advice is dated. That said, it's still shit work

What's so bad about it? And how does it compare to other finance, eg levfin.

[Anonymous User]

Sorry to bump a really old thread bur does anyone know how much things have changed in the past 8 years?

Structured finance is very hot and busy right now so the above advice is dated. That said, it's still shit work

What's so bad about it? And how does it compare to other finance, eg levfin.

Bumping. And to add a bit, just switched into finance and unfortunately am working in structured finance for my first project. It is not fun. The work is just mind numbing. Very smart people already made up all the rules and deal points for these super niche financial vehicles. As an associate you will never know what rules they are playing by because “they know it when they see it.” You’re also on a team of max 3 associates and the partners just want to churn deals so expect little if any attention or development.

Not having a good experience, will not be joining this group full time.

[Lesion of Doom]

I’m a worn out LevFi associate and even I know that things could be much worse - structured finance or whatever other terms people use to describe it.

Poor exits and horrible lifestyle. At my old firm it was a revolving door. They never stopped hiring because associates figured it out quickly and got to quitting. A summer getting dumped into that group against their will is one step shy of being no offered.

[Anonymous User]

I’m a worn out LevFi associate and even I know that things could be much worse - structured finance or whatever other terms people use to describe it.

Poor exits and horrible lifestyle. At my old firm it was a revolving door. They never stopped hiring because associates figured it out quickly and got to quitting. A summer getting dumped into that group against their will is one step shy of being no offered.

How was Levfin? I’m currently picking between levfin and private credit (mostly for PE Funds). It’s a tough choice and the people are equally good - any suggestions or things to look out for?

(Anon from the recent post above)

[Anonymous User]

I’m a worn out LevFi associate and even I know that things could be much worse - structured finance or whatever other terms people use to describe it.

Poor exits and horrible lifestyle. At my old firm it was a revolving door. They never stopped hiring because associates figured it out quickly and got to quitting. A summer getting dumped into that group against their will is one step shy of being no offered.

How was Levfin? I’m currently picking between levfin and private credit (mostly for PE Funds). It’s a tough choice and the people are equally good - any suggestions or things to look out for?

(Anon from the recent post above)

I'm a diff levfin associate. I find levfin very interesting and as a junior I get to do decently substantive work (whenever I get staffed on corporate stuff it's really boring in comparison). The schedule is as rough as the reputation has it. It's not that I'm billing so crazy overall, but when there's a fire drill closing, stuff needs to get done. I've done 14 hour days. They are not fun. And I'm often the only associate on the deal, maybe one other.

I'm also a bit concerned about the exit options. They seem to be either go work in a bank for marginally fewer hours, or continue grinding and hope to make partner or counsel eventually.

[Anonymous User]

I’m a worn out LevFi associate and even I know that things could be much worse - structured finance or whatever other terms people use to describe it.

Poor exits and horrible lifestyle. At my old firm it was a revolving door. They never stopped hiring because associates figured it out quickly and got to quitting. A summer getting dumped into that group against their will is one step shy of being no offered.

How was Levfin? I’m currently picking between levfin and private credit (mostly for PE Funds). It’s a tough choice and the people are equally good - any suggestions or things to look out for?

(Anon from the recent post above)

I'm a diff levfin associate. I find levfin very interesting and as a junior I get to do decently substantive work (whenever I get staffed on corporate stuff it's really boring in comparison). The schedule is as rough as the reputation has it. It's not that I'm billing so crazy overall, but when there's a fire drill closing, stuff needs to get done. I've done 14 hour days. They are not fun. And I'm often the only associate on the deal, maybe one other.

I'm also a bit concerned about the exit options. They seem to be either go work in a bank for marginally fewer hours, or continue grinding and hope to make partner or counsel eventually.

I think that company side in-house is definitely possible, but it takes longer and you just need to make your resume look more generalist. Like you do Finance AND general corporate work. I know someone that started in bankruptcy, moved to finance, and does some privacy and corporate work on the side because they are very intentionally trying to pick up skills that they can market on their resume for in house gigs.

[Lesion of Doom]

I’m a worn out LevFi associate and even I know that things could be much worse - structured finance or whatever other terms people use to describe it.

Poor exits and horrible lifestyle. At my old firm it was a revolving door. They never stopped hiring because associates figured it out quickly and got to quitting. A summer getting dumped into that group against their will is one step shy of being no offered.

How was Levfin? I’m currently picking between levfin and private credit (mostly for PE Funds). It’s a tough choice and the people are equally good - any suggestions or things to look out for?

(Anon from the recent post above)

As mentioned above, it's a very challenging lifestyle. The primary issue for me isn't even closing, it's commitment papers. The problem is that they don't entail funding so they can sign at any time, including frequently on Sunday or Monday. So your weekend gets fucked and you may not even know it until Friday late afternoon.

But I do find the work challenging and rewarding to know. Just wish the cadence were more gentle. As for in-house, your exits are worse than general corporate or especially privacy, but at the junior level you can make it work. I wouldn't avoid the group for that reason. TLS treats exits as far more rigid than they actually are in practice.

[Anonymous User]

Delete. discussion moved on.