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- Desert Fox
- Posts: 18283
- Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2014 4:34 pm
You will get 0 substantiv trial experience as BL Lit Associa
There are partners who don't argue motions or write important briefs.
Last edited by Desert Fox on Sat Jan 27, 2018 6:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
- baal hadad
- Posts: 3167
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- Flips88
- Posts: 15246
- Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2010 7:42 pm
Re: You will get 0 substantiv trial experience as BL Lit Associa
Isn't that what doing pro bono shit is for?
- Desert Fox
- Posts: 18283
- Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2014 4:34 pm
Re: You will get 0 substantiv trial experience as BL Lit Associa
PB is where Big Lawyers practice malpractice.Flips88 wrote:Isn't that what doing pro bono shit is for?
Last edited by Desert Fox on Sat Jan 27, 2018 6:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
- pancakes3
- Posts: 6619
- Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2014 2:49 pm
Re: You will get 0 substantiv trial experience as BL Lit Associa
Correct me if I'm wrong but pretty much nobody even gets to talk unless you're 1st chair and so even if you do get to do "substantive" work, chances are that you won't get to argue anything for most/all of your career?
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- patogordo
- Posts: 4826
- Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2014 3:33 am
Re: You will get 0 substantiv trial experience as BL Lit Associa
yea that's his point
- Desert Fox
- Posts: 18283
- Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2014 4:34 pm
Re: You will get 0 substantiv trial experience as BL Lit Associa
Big Law won't even trust you argue 100% losing argument motions.
Last edited by Desert Fox on Sat Jan 27, 2018 6:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- Posts: 1396
- Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:50 pm
Re: You will get 0 substantiv trial experience as BL Lit Associa
That's funny.Desert Fox wrote:PB is where Big Lawyers practice malpractice.Flips88 wrote:Isn't that what doing pro bono shit is for?
As an aside, Mid-law, while not as presthigious, seems to give practical legal experience to associates much earlier in their careers. For example, I work at a large Detroit firm, and within a month of getting my bar card I had filed a complaint against a city and municipal police department, appeared in court, negotiated with the opposing city attorney, spoke with a police detective, and made the defendants roll and give my client exactly what he wanted. That was cool, and I had no fucking idea what I was doing. I didn't even know which side of the podium to stand on in court. But I was the only attorney of record for my client, and I won. Fuck yeah. It seems strange, but there are probably 6th year Big Law attorneys I could destroy in court simply because all they've ever done is respond to discovery. But that's reality.
- ggocat
- Posts: 1825
- Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 1:51 pm
Re: You will get 0 substantiv trial experience as BL Lit Associa
I've known one of these guys, but I think it's because sociopaths would rather do depos than write briefs. I read a depo where there was an objection to counsel (a partner) standing over the deponent.
Last edited by ggocat on Fri Sep 26, 2014 1:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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- Posts: 400
- Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2014 5:47 pm
Re: You will get 0 substantiv trial experience as BL Lit Associa
And by that logic, some small town shitlaw attorney in a place like Bemidji, MN who spends four days a week in court would piss all over you in court. But that's reality.NotMyRealName09 wrote:That's funny.Desert Fox wrote:PB is where Big Lawyers practice malpractice.Flips88 wrote:Isn't that what doing pro bono shit is for?
As an aside, Mid-law, while not as presthigious, seems to give practical legal experience to associates much earlier in their careers. For example, I work at a large Detroit firm, and within a month of getting my bar card I had filed a complaint against a city and municipal police department, appeared in court, negotiated with the opposing city attorney, spoke with a police detective, and made the defendants roll and give my client exactly what he wanted. That was cool, and I had no fucking idea what I was doing. I didn't even know which side of the podium to stand on in court. But I was the only attorney of record for my client, and I won. Fuck yeah. It seems strange, but there are probably 6th year Big Law attorneys I could destroy in court simply because all they've ever done is respond to discovery. But that's reality.
- patogordo
- Posts: 4826
- Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2014 3:33 am
Re: You will get 0 substantiv trial experience as BL Lit Associa
yea but can he write passive-aggressive discovery letters? not like i can.
- Desert Fox
- Posts: 18283
- Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2014 4:34 pm
Re: You will get 0 substantiv trial experience as BL Lit Associa
I think this is 100% true, even across the board.NotMyRealName09 wrote:That's funny.Desert Fox wrote:PB is where Big Lawyers practice malpractice.Flips88 wrote:Isn't that what doing pro bono shit is for?
As an aside, Mid-law, while not as presthigious, seems to give practical legal experience to associates much earlier in their careers. For example, I work at a large Detroit firm, and within a month of getting my bar card I had filed a complaint against a city and municipal police department, appeared in court, negotiated with the opposing city attorney, spoke with a police detective, and made the defendants roll and give my client exactly what he wanted. That was cool, and I had no fucking idea what I was doing. I didn't even know which side of the podium to stand on in court. But I was the only attorney of record for my client, and I won. Fuck yeah. It seems strange, but there are probably 6th year Big Law attorneys I could destroy in court simply because all they've ever done is respond to discovery. But that's reality.
People will say, "BUT they don't get the juicy work." But guess what, doing doc review on a prefstigious case does shit for your career. Even getting decent biglaw lit experience will be useless for your career UNLESS you make biglaw partner. Otherwise you are going to end up in midlaw or shitlaw. And nobody is making Lit partners anymore, and the few who do, almost always did a stint in a place that did trust them do actual work.
Last edited by Desert Fox on Sat Jan 27, 2018 6:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: You will get 0 substantiv trial experience as BL Lit Associa
Can you say the same thing (in terms of substantive work) for Corporate?
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- Desert Fox
- Posts: 18283
- Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2014 4:34 pm
Re: You will get 0 substantiv trial experience as BL Lit Associa
I don't have any real knowledge, but I think it's the opposite.Anonymous User wrote:Can you say the same thing (in terms of substantive work) for Corporate?
Associates do 100% of the substantive legal work, and the partners are just bringing in work, supervising, managing, and handling big negotiations.
People claim that midlevels will run entire deals.
Lit midlevels don't run their own cases. Not even close.
Last edited by Desert Fox on Sat Jan 27, 2018 6:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- Posts: 467
- Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:26 pm
Re: You will get 0 substantiv trial experience as BL Lit Associa
Litigation is a shitty practice area. Avoid.
- kalvano
- Posts: 11951
- Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 2:24 am
Re: You will get 0 substantiv trial experience as BL Lit Associa
In terms of getting actual, practical experience, small and midlaw blows away BIglaw because smaller firms don't have resources to waste.
In terms of getting to work on massively complex deals with huge clients, Biglaw wins.
In terms of getting to work on massively complex deals with huge clients, Biglaw wins.
- Desert Fox
- Posts: 18283
- Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2014 4:34 pm
Re: You will get 0 substantiv trial experience as BL Lit Associa
What's the benefit of getting to work on complex cases if you don't get to actually do the complex work.kalvano wrote:In terms of getting actual, practical experience, small and midlaw blows away BIglaw because smaller firms don't have resources to waste.
In terms of getting to work on massively complex deals with huge clients, Biglaw wins.
Last edited by Desert Fox on Sat Jan 27, 2018 6:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- kalvano
- Posts: 11951
- Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 2:24 am
Re: You will get 0 substantiv trial experience as BL Lit Associa
I didn't say there was one, unless it's being able to have that name on your resume. I've never worked on a huge case with big names before, so I don't know what benefit there may be. I just know that, between my friends in Biglaw and in small law, and in working for a small firm, smaller firms easily win for practical experience.Desert Fox wrote:What's the benefit of getting to work on complex cases if you don't get to actually do the complex work.kalvano wrote:In terms of getting actual, practical experience, small and midlaw blows away BIglaw because smaller firms don't have resources to waste.
In terms of getting to work on massively complex deals with huge clients, Biglaw wins.
- patogordo
- Posts: 4826
- Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2014 3:33 am
Re: You will get 0 substantiv trial experience as BL Lit Associa
you get to write expert reports though. why don't you just lateral into expert witness, DF?
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- Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am
Re: You will get 0 substantiv trial experience as BL Lit Associa
Anonymous User wrote:Can you say the same thing (in terms of substantive work) for Corporate?
Ditto real estate?
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- Posts: 400
- Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2014 5:47 pm
Re: You will get 0 substantiv trial experience as BL Lit Associa
The whole notion of working in Biglaw to handle big clients cracks me up. Only lawyers are so prestige whorish not to immediately recognize how preposterous that "reason" sounds, considering that the work the associates are doing is the lowest on the totem pole. I enjoy imagining it in other contexts:
"I like to work at Wal-Mart because I get to stock shelves with products from hundreds or thousands of companies from all around the world!"
"I was trying to decide whether to work at Starbucks or my local coffee shop, but in the end, Starbucks brings in customers from everywhere, and our company is so well known. You can even buy our beans in grocery stores!"
"I'm from a tiny country, and I worked my way up to a Captain in the military after college. It was ok, the hours were good, and I had a lot of responsibilities, but ultimately Al-Queda offered me more money, better exit opportunities (more virgins), and a really high-profile position haplessly firing outdated RPGs at people from V5 countries. We're in the news on a daily basis, and I'm looking forward to this prestigious role, even though I have to start out on the low end and put in my time as a suicide bomber."
"I like to work at Wal-Mart because I get to stock shelves with products from hundreds or thousands of companies from all around the world!"
"I was trying to decide whether to work at Starbucks or my local coffee shop, but in the end, Starbucks brings in customers from everywhere, and our company is so well known. You can even buy our beans in grocery stores!"
"I'm from a tiny country, and I worked my way up to a Captain in the military after college. It was ok, the hours were good, and I had a lot of responsibilities, but ultimately Al-Queda offered me more money, better exit opportunities (more virgins), and a really high-profile position haplessly firing outdated RPGs at people from V5 countries. We're in the news on a daily basis, and I'm looking forward to this prestigious role, even though I have to start out on the low end and put in my time as a suicide bomber."
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Re: You will get 0 substantiv trial experience as BL Lit Associa
I've long been amazed at how many people dont seem to realize this.Desert Fox wrote:What's the benefit of getting to work on complex cases if you don't get to actually do the complex work.kalvano wrote:In terms of getting actual, practical experience, small and midlaw blows away BIglaw because smaller firms don't have resources to waste.
In terms of getting to work on massively complex deals with huge clients, Biglaw wins.
- baal hadad
- Posts: 3167
- Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2014 2:57 pm
Re: You will get 0 substantiv trial experience as BL Lit Associa
Thanks anonAnonymous User wrote:I've long been amazed at how many people dont seem to realize this.Desert Fox wrote:What's the benefit of getting to work on complex cases if you don't get to actually do the complex work.kalvano wrote:In terms of getting actual, practical experience, small and midlaw blows away BIglaw because smaller firms don't have resources to waste.
In terms of getting to work on massively complex deals with huge clients, Biglaw wins.
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Re: You will get 0 substantiv trial experience as BL Lit Associa
So i shouldnt feel like shit for striking out?
- nsideirish
- Posts: 411
- Joined: Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:32 am
Re: You will get 0 substantiv trial experience as BL Lit Associa
$160,000 is the only reason I am choosing biglaw over small/midlaw. I know I will be pushing papers for the first few years. I'd rather push papers for $3000/wk than do substantive legal work for $1500/wk (or whatever).
Seriously? What are you waiting for?
Now there's a charge.
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