Lean Staffing Forum
Forum rules
Anonymous Posting
Anonymous posting is only appropriate when you are revealing sensitive employment related information about a firm, job, etc. You may anonymously respond on topic to these threads. Unacceptable uses include: harassing another user, joking around, testing the feature, or other things that are more appropriate in the lounge.
Failure to follow these rules will get you outed, warned, or banned.
Anonymous Posting
Anonymous posting is only appropriate when you are revealing sensitive employment related information about a firm, job, etc. You may anonymously respond on topic to these threads. Unacceptable uses include: harassing another user, joking around, testing the feature, or other things that are more appropriate in the lounge.
Failure to follow these rules will get you outed, warned, or banned.
-
- Posts: 427948
- Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am
Lean Staffing
Is it a flame? Are associates at smaller biglaw firms which advertise this model telling the truth when they say they're first-chairing depos by year two and drafting motions in their first couple months? Are there any disadvantages to working directly with a partner from day one?
Basically wondering what the catch is. Because if there isn't one, what are the advantages of choosing your run-of-the-mill mega-staffed biglaw firm over one of these places? Superior exit options?
I realize this is all incredibly general, but I'm just trying to get a feel for whether any of these places might be legit - especially in the DC market - or if this is the small biglaw equivalent of the "collegiality" and "work life balance" flames. The pitch frankly sounds too good to be true after endless accounts of litigation associates never who spend years doing bitchwork before so much as dreaming of actually handling cases in any meaningful way or communicating directly with clients. Which is kind of what my baseline expectation of biglaw has been for a while - the years of bitchwork before bump up or burn out, I mean.
[Anon because I'm sure firm names will come into this at some point. With that in mind, don't quote, please.]
Basically wondering what the catch is. Because if there isn't one, what are the advantages of choosing your run-of-the-mill mega-staffed biglaw firm over one of these places? Superior exit options?
I realize this is all incredibly general, but I'm just trying to get a feel for whether any of these places might be legit - especially in the DC market - or if this is the small biglaw equivalent of the "collegiality" and "work life balance" flames. The pitch frankly sounds too good to be true after endless accounts of litigation associates never who spend years doing bitchwork before so much as dreaming of actually handling cases in any meaningful way or communicating directly with clients. Which is kind of what my baseline expectation of biglaw has been for a while - the years of bitchwork before bump up or burn out, I mean.
[Anon because I'm sure firm names will come into this at some point. With that in mind, don't quote, please.]
- Nelson
- Posts: 2058
- Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:43 am
Re: Lean Staffing
Just say which firms. That said, it's more about what practice area than what firm.
-
- Posts: 427948
- Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am
Re: Lean Staffing
Not original anon, but curious about this too. Hogan Lovells litigation.
-
- Posts: 427948
- Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am
Re: Lean Staffing
Like pretty much everything else in BigLaw, "lean staffing" and how much responsibility you get really just depends on what cases you get staffed on once you start working (assuming litigation here). You have pretty much no control over it. And there are definitely advantages and disadvantages to both sides. (For example, starting with doc review in the first month or so can be a really good way to get your feet wet, and getting on a case from the beginning can be a really good thing; whereas if you're thrown into the middle of trying to write research memos, interview/witness outlines and dispositive motions on cases you know nothing about, it can be really overwhelming).
But I really doubt there is ANY place where you're communicating with the client in Y1 or Y2 unless it's just to be the one to send them litigation update memos and things like that. (At least not in litigation).
But I really doubt there is ANY place where you're communicating with the client in Y1 or Y2 unless it's just to be the one to send them litigation update memos and things like that. (At least not in litigation).
-
- Posts: 427948
- Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am
Re: Lean Staffing
I really doubt it. Every single firm I've interviewed with has told me this. Some I believe more than others, i.e. W&C and lit boutiques. No one is going to convince me that a highly leveraged biglaw lit department is leanly staffed until I see it for myself, though. Maybe if everyone is completely slammed and there is no other option, I guess.
Want to continue reading?
Register now to search topics and post comments!
Absolutely FREE!
Already a member? Login
-
- Posts: 427948
- Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am
Re: Lean Staffing
Curious about this as well. Firms like stroock etc
- DELG
- Posts: 3021
- Joined: Thu May 15, 2014 7:15 pm
Re: Lean Staffing
lol what's so great about lean staffing
i don't get how this is a selling point
i don't get how this is a selling point
-
- Posts: 427948
- Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am
Re: Lean Staffing
Not doing non-stop doc review for years (b/c supposedly outsourced or handed to staff attorneys). Feeling like you are actually practicing law, doing legal research, depos, etc. instead of endlessly slogging through someone else's office emails for a living. Not being a tyrannical midlevel's bitch (though probably being a tyrannical partner's bitch). Getting more substantive experience that you can use to sell yourself for laterals/exit options. Maybe developing an expertise, idk.DELG wrote:lol what's so great about lean staffing
i don't get how this is a selling point
Question is whether any of this is actually happens or if this is pure marketing BS. Especially the part about doc review being outsourced.
- DELG
- Posts: 3021
- Joined: Thu May 15, 2014 7:15 pm
Re: Lean Staffing
i dunno man. doc review/similar slogging is a steady source of billables and gives your brain a rest. there's something to be said for a mix of "substantive" work and bitch work. real work is pretty terrifying.Anonymous User wrote:Not doing non-stop doc review for years (b/c supposedly outsourced or handed to staff attorneys). Feeling like you are actually practicing law, doing legal research, depos, etc. instead of endlessly slogging through someone else's office emails for a living. Not being a tyrannical midlevel's bitch (though probably being a tyrannical partner's bitch). Getting more substantive experience that you can use to sell yourself for laterals/exit options. Maybe developing an expertise, idk.DELG wrote:lol what's so great about lean staffing
i don't get how this is a selling point
Question is whether any of this is actually happens or if this is pure marketing BS. Especially the part about doc review being outsourced.
-
- Posts: 427948
- Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am
Re: Lean Staffing
Good to know. First time I've heard that sentiment, so used to attorneys IRL and on TLS talking about doc review like the worst experience of their lives and the most miserable component of being a junior.DELG wrote:i dunno man. doc review/similar slogging is a steady source of billables and gives your brain a rest. there's something to be said for a mix of "substantive" work and bitch work. real work is pretty terrifying.Anonymous User wrote:Not doing non-stop doc review for years (b/c supposedly outsourced or handed to staff attorneys). Feeling like you are actually practicing law, doing legal research, depos, etc. instead of endlessly slogging through someone else's office emails for a living. Not being a tyrannical midlevel's bitch (though probably being a tyrannical partner's bitch). Getting more substantive experience that you can use to sell yourself for laterals/exit options. Maybe developing an expertise, idk.DELG wrote:lol what's so great about lean staffing
i don't get how this is a selling point
Question is whether any of this is actually happens or if this is pure marketing BS. Especially the part about doc review being outsourced.
- DELG
- Posts: 3021
- Joined: Thu May 15, 2014 7:15 pm
Re: Lean Staffing
the reason i posted in this thread in the first place is, to me, "lean staffing" on a case means give your dog away, when shit blows up, there's only you.
-
- Posts: 3436
- Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 2:39 pm
Re: Lean Staffing
This.DELG wrote:i dunno man. doc review/similar slogging is a steady source of billables and gives your brain a rest. there's something to be said for a mix of "substantive" work and bitch work. real work is pretty terrifying.Anonymous User wrote:Not doing non-stop doc review for years (b/c supposedly outsourced or handed to staff attorneys). Feeling like you are actually practicing law, doing legal research, depos, etc. instead of endlessly slogging through someone else's office emails for a living. Not being a tyrannical midlevel's bitch (though probably being a tyrannical partner's bitch). Getting more substantive experience that you can use to sell yourself for laterals/exit options. Maybe developing an expertise, idk.DELG wrote:lol what's so great about lean staffing
i don't get how this is a selling point
Question is whether any of this is actually happens or if this is pure marketing BS. Especially the part about doc review being outsourced.
Also that "tyrannical" mid level as often as not is actually shielding you from the full force of the partner's bullshit.
It's good to have a mix IMO.
-
- Posts: 3436
- Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 2:39 pm
Re: Lean Staffing
This too.DELG wrote:the reason i posted in this thread in the first place is, to me, "lean staffing" on a case means give your dog away, when shit blows up, there's only you.
I've worked on pretty minor cases with just me and a partner and big deal matters with 10 other associates. Guess which one is going to ruin your vacation?
Register now!
Resources to assist law school applicants, students & graduates.
It's still FREE!
Already a member? Login
- thesealocust
- Posts: 8525
- Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:50 pm
Re: Lean Staffing
+1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1DELG wrote:the reason i posted in this thread in the first place is, to me, "lean staffing" on a case means give your dog away, when shit blows up, there's only you.
-
- Posts: 467
- Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:26 pm
Re: Lean Staffing
Doc review is hardly the most miserable part about being a junior. Sure, doc review is dull and any high school drop out could do it, but it's easy billables and pretty difficult to fuck up. Hell, I wouldn't even put it on a top 10 list of worst things about being a junior litigation associate.Anonymous User wrote:
Good to know. First time I've heard that sentiment, so used to attorneys IRL and on TLS talking about doc review like the worst experience of their lives and the most miserable component of being a junior.
-
- Posts: 18203
- Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:47 pm
Re: Lean Staffing
Depends how long you do it for. After a while it's sooooo god dam boring you'll want to /self.Cogburn87 wrote:Doc review is hardly the most miserable part about being a junior. Sure, doc review is dull and any high school drop out could do it, but it's easy billables and pretty difficult to fuck up. Hell, I wouldn't even put it on a top 10 list of worst things about being a junior litigation associate.Anonymous User wrote:
Good to know. First time I've heard that sentiment, so used to attorneys IRL and on TLS talking about doc review like the worst experience of their lives and the most miserable component of being a junior.
-
- Posts: 467
- Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:26 pm
Re: Lean Staffing
Yeah. It can suck if it's all you do for a while. But listening to music/podcasts while you perform your drudgery helps.
Get unlimited access to all forums and topics
Register now!
I'm pretty sure I told you it's FREE...
Already a member? Login
-
- Posts: 18203
- Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:47 pm
Re: Lean Staffing
I watch netflixCogburn87 wrote:Yeah. It can suck if it's all you do for a while. But listening to music/podcasts while you perform your drudgery helps.
-
- Posts: 23
- Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2011 4:34 pm
Re: Lean Staffing
Soon to be 3rd year litigation associate here. Doc review is is very welcome work. It's easy and relaxing compared to other things. LOL at lean staffing being considered per se a good thing.
-
- Posts: 18203
- Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:47 pm
Re: Lean Staffing
I'm really terrible at doc review. I always miss attorney client privalege stuff.
-
- Posts: 427948
- Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am
Re: Lean Staffing
I won't discuss whether lean staffing is a good thing or a bad thing for juniors; people have their opinions on how much substantive work they want. I can understand doc review being a good thing for racking up hrs. I can also understand growth/development and training being helpful.
But I will say there definitely are firms that staff matters leanly. Although almost every firm will say this, a few actually do this. Speaking in the Boston market, firms like Choate, Nutter and Holland & Knight definitely has very few associates on a matter. Of course, it's different on different cases, based on the $$$ involved.
With that said, the highest "prestige" that lots of law students chase typically has a model of having a much more leveraged system where matters are most definitely not lean. See Ropes & Gray; WilmerHale; Skadden. Great exit options if you'd like to lateral out in just a few years for something else. However, although it'll depend on the partners you work for, generally speaking, your exposure to partners, clients, and/or substantive work will likely be less than at a smaller firm.
But I will say there definitely are firms that staff matters leanly. Although almost every firm will say this, a few actually do this. Speaking in the Boston market, firms like Choate, Nutter and Holland & Knight definitely has very few associates on a matter. Of course, it's different on different cases, based on the $$$ involved.
With that said, the highest "prestige" that lots of law students chase typically has a model of having a much more leveraged system where matters are most definitely not lean. See Ropes & Gray; WilmerHale; Skadden. Great exit options if you'd like to lateral out in just a few years for something else. However, although it'll depend on the partners you work for, generally speaking, your exposure to partners, clients, and/or substantive work will likely be less than at a smaller firm.
Communicate now with those who not only know what a legal education is, but can offer you worthy advice and commentary as you complete the three most educational, yet challenging years of your law related post graduate life.
Register now, it's still FREE!
Already a member? Login
-
- Posts: 637
- Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 11:09 am
Re: Lean Staffing
I get the sense that law students think lean staffing means working closely with a parter who will take an interest in you. What it actually means is that you are thrown work that you have no business doing, with very little instruction and the terror of committing malpractice haunts your every waking moment (and many of your few sleeping ones as well). Some people thrive on being one document from ruining their careers. Some are unaware of how close they are to really f*cking up. Some pray to be returned to doc review/diligence.
-
- Posts: 12612
- Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 12:16 am
Re: Lean Staffing
I've heard this from every firm I've talked to so I assume flame.
- englawyer
- Posts: 1271
- Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:57 pm
Re: Lean Staffing
Firms usually have a spectrum of cases. If the matter involves millions of documents and 60 depos, the matter is not going to be "leanly staffed." The case will need a ton of bodies and some kind of hierarchy. On the other hand, if the matter is a small employee poaching/trade secrets suit, it might be something like one partner, one senior, one junior. Whether you work on the former or the latter is possibly out of your control depending on the level of free market vs assignment at your firm, the types of cases the firm typically handles, and the partners you typically work for (some specialties are usually in one bucket or the other).
Two things that do matter in terms of substantive experience are contract attorneys and the plaintiff/defendant distinction:
Contract Attorneys If the firm uses them, contract attorneys will usually handle basic doc review, which pushes juniors into more interesting work (e.g. finding the important docs for an upcoming deposition rather than doing bare relevant/non-relevant review). Firms use outside contract attorneys to various degrees, and some large firms still use junior associates for even the most basic work.
Plaintiff/DefendantPlaintiff work is often more substantive than defendant work for juniors. For example, firms are typically more willing to allow associates to take rather than defend depositions, and P usually takes more depositions than D. Some cases are also structured as one P (or a class action) against many Ds. In the P vs. many Ds cases, P's attorneys have to do an equal amount of work as D's attorneys but with fewer people. In those circumstances, interesting work tends to get shifted down to juniors.
Two things that do matter in terms of substantive experience are contract attorneys and the plaintiff/defendant distinction:
Contract Attorneys If the firm uses them, contract attorneys will usually handle basic doc review, which pushes juniors into more interesting work (e.g. finding the important docs for an upcoming deposition rather than doing bare relevant/non-relevant review). Firms use outside contract attorneys to various degrees, and some large firms still use junior associates for even the most basic work.
Plaintiff/DefendantPlaintiff work is often more substantive than defendant work for juniors. For example, firms are typically more willing to allow associates to take rather than defend depositions, and P usually takes more depositions than D. Some cases are also structured as one P (or a class action) against many Ds. In the P vs. many Ds cases, P's attorneys have to do an equal amount of work as D's attorneys but with fewer people. In those circumstances, interesting work tends to get shifted down to juniors.
-
- Posts: 20063
- Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:06 pm
Re: Lean Staffing
To add to the above, some firms may also partner with a larger firm on certain cases where the larger firm handles much of the grunt work (similar to how K attorneys are used).
Seriously? What are you waiting for?
Now there's a charge.
Just kidding ... it's still FREE!
Already a member? Login