Simpson Thacher vs. Davis Polk Forum

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Simpson Thacher vs. Davis Polk

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Aug 25, 2014 2:35 pm

2L with SA offers to STB and DPW (both NY). Interested mainly in M&A work, but also in capital markets and maybe credit. Attracted to STB's PE practice and clients, but the folks there seemed a little stuffier and their space is awful (though it is being renovated). I got along well with people from both firms, maybe a bit better at DPW but not materially. Should I just flip a coin?
Last edited by Anonymous User on Mon Aug 25, 2014 2:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Simpson Thacher vs. Davis Polk

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Aug 25, 2014 2:39 pm

It sounds like you are clearly learning towards DPW. I had these two options and personally liked the folks at STB better, but can't go wrong with either.

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Re: Simpson Thacher vs. Davis Polk

Post by thesealocust » Mon Aug 25, 2014 2:40 pm

Just flip a coin.

Maybe better advice is do second visits, targeting junior associates, and dig as deeply into culture / life as a junior as possible. Then follow your heart.

Or flip a coin.

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Re: Simpson Thacher vs. Davis Polk

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Aug 25, 2014 2:53 pm

I would go DPW if I was in your shoes (though both are phenomenal). It sounds like you got along with DPW better. Plus, when I CB with STB, a few associates said that the noise from renovations was annoying as hell. Granted, this is a very small factor in choosing a firm, but still. Congrats, both are great.

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Re: Simpson Thacher vs. Davis Polk

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:44 pm

I'd choose STB here. DPW has a very weird policy with rotating and their M&A group. It's a small group that is oversubscribed, so if you want in, you basically have to opt out of your rotations entirely. STB, on the other hand, will 100% let you rotate through M&A/Credit/Cap Markets--and I think that's more tailored to your interests.

That said, if your gut is leaning DPW, it's hard to place a value on that, so I wouldn't blame you for choosing DPW. Other than the rotation thing, they are basically the same exact firm.

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Re: Simpson Thacher vs. Davis Polk

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Aug 26, 2014 10:43 pm

DPW's M&A practice is the weakest by a fair bit of all the big flip-a-coin corporate firms (Cravath/S&C/DPW/Cleary/STB), so if M&A is really your primary interest, then this is a pretty easy call for STB.

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Re: Simpson Thacher vs. Davis Polk

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Aug 26, 2014 10:59 pm

Anonymous User wrote:DPW's M&A practice is the weakest by a fair bit of all the big flip-a-coin corporate firms (Cravath/S&C/DPW/Cleary/STB), so if M&A is really your primary interest, then this is a pretty easy call for STB.
Not true at all; it's simply the smallest, so it lags behind in league tables. It's every bit the peer in terms of quality work.

And its capital markets group is easily better than STB's.

STB's PE group is inarguably better than DPW's though.

I'd go to DPW if you liked it more (as it seems you did). These two firms are very similar and, along with S&C and Cravath, probably the most prestigious white-shoe firms in the city.

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Re: Simpson Thacher vs. Davis Polk

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:52 am

Anonymous User wrote:I'd choose STB here. DPW has a very weird policy with rotating and their M&A group. It's a small group that is oversubscribed, so if you want in, you basically have to opt out of your rotations entirely. STB, on the other hand, will 100% let you rotate through M&A/Credit/Cap Markets--and I think that's more tailored to your interests.

That said, if your gut is leaning DPW, it's hard to place a value on that, so I wouldn't blame you for choosing DPW. Other than the rotation thing, they are basically the same exact firm.
DPW's M&A practice has 42 associates as of right now and 18 partners. According to STB's website, their NYC M&A practice has 82 associates and 38 partners. So DPW's practice is unarguably smaller. But I think that it continually hits above its weight.

http://www.davispolk.com/davis-polk-top ... gue-table/

Last year, DPW had some big deals which led it to top the yearly 2013 league tables (and I think 3/4 quarters). 2014 has shown DPW defend AstraZeneca against a takeover, sell off Shire (a longstanding client), do the Roche/Intermune deal, Tyson/Hillshire, Comcast/TWC, etc., etc.

STB absolutely has a better PE practice than DPW. DPW does do some middle market deals for Metalmark, Tailwind and Vector, but DPW does not have the PE work like STB or K&E. From a junior's perspective, this is probably better in terms of quality of life (PE deals can be a bit rougher than strategic) but the difference is probably quite marginal at this level of firm.

Regarding the rotations, it is an oversubscribed group, but not a single person opts out of rotations to do M&A. Every single first year who rotated through M&A this past year also did a second rotation. And anyone who wants a Cap Markets or Credit rotation can get one. Same was true last year. Not sure where some of the recent TLS confusion is coming from regarding DPW.

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Re: Simpson Thacher vs. Davis Polk

Post by lawyerz4life » Wed Aug 27, 2014 4:51 pm

Any feedback on the cultural differences between these two places?

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Re: Simpson Thacher vs. Davis Polk

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Aug 27, 2014 5:39 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I'd choose STB here. DPW has a very weird policy with rotating and their M&A group. It's a small group that is oversubscribed, so if you want in, you basically have to opt out of your rotations entirely. STB, on the other hand, will 100% let you rotate through M&A/Credit/Cap Markets--and I think that's more tailored to your interests.

That said, if your gut is leaning DPW, it's hard to place a value on that, so I wouldn't blame you for choosing DPW. Other than the rotation thing, they are basically the same exact firm.
DPW's M&A practice has 42 associates as of right now and 18 partners. According to STB's website, their NYC M&A practice has 82 associates and 38 partners. So DPW's practice is unarguably smaller. But I think that it continually hits above its weight.

http://www.davispolk.com/davis-polk-top ... gue-table/

Last year, DPW had some big deals which led it to top the yearly 2013 league tables (and I think 3/4 quarters). 2014 has shown DPW defend AstraZeneca against a takeover, sell off Shire (a longstanding client), do the Roche/Intermune deal, Tyson/Hillshire, Comcast/TWC, etc., etc.

STB absolutely has a better PE practice than DPW. DPW does do some middle market deals for Metalmark, Tailwind and Vector, but DPW does not have the PE work like STB or K&E. From a junior's perspective, this is probably better in terms of quality of life (PE deals can be a bit rougher than strategic) but the difference is probably quite marginal at this level of firm.

Regarding the rotations, it is an oversubscribed group, but not a single person opts out of rotations to do M&A. Every single first year who rotated through M&A this past year also did a second rotation. And anyone who wants a Cap Markets or Credit rotation can get one. Same was true last year. Not sure where some of the recent TLS confusion is coming from regarding DPW.
DPW wasn't really in on those deals - their league table rank was a figment of their BS representations of peripheral parties. No one in public company M&A considers them a serious player. I don't really have a dog in this - don't work at either - but DPWs M&A practice is really mediocre considering how much of a power it is otherwise. And the folks I know who have worked in that group hated it and didn't last 4 years, which is unusual for DPW. Pretty much, it's the only DPW group id counsel a friend against joining.

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Re: Simpson Thacher vs. Davis Polk

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Aug 27, 2014 5:51 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I'd choose STB here. DPW has a very weird policy with rotating and their M&A group. It's a small group that is oversubscribed, so if you want in, you basically have to opt out of your rotations entirely. STB, on the other hand, will 100% let you rotate through M&A/Credit/Cap Markets--and I think that's more tailored to your interests.

That said, if your gut is leaning DPW, it's hard to place a value on that, so I wouldn't blame you for choosing DPW. Other than the rotation thing, they are basically the same exact firm.
DPW's M&A practice has 42 associates as of right now and 18 partners. According to STB's website, their NYC M&A practice has 82 associates and 38 partners. So DPW's practice is unarguably smaller. But I think that it continually hits above its weight.

http://www.davispolk.com/davis-polk-top ... gue-table/

Last year, DPW had some big deals which led it to top the yearly 2013 league tables (and I think 3/4 quarters). 2014 has shown DPW defend AstraZeneca against a takeover, sell off Shire (a longstanding client), do the Roche/Intermune deal, Tyson/Hillshire, Comcast/TWC, etc., etc.

STB absolutely has a better PE practice than DPW. DPW does do some middle market deals for Metalmark, Tailwind and Vector, but DPW does not have the PE work like STB or K&E. From a junior's perspective, this is probably better in terms of quality of life (PE deals can be a bit rougher than strategic) but the difference is probably quite marginal at this level of firm.

Regarding the rotations, it is an oversubscribed group, but not a single person opts out of rotations to do M&A. Every single first year who rotated through M&A this past year also did a second rotation. And anyone who wants a Cap Markets or Credit rotation can get one. Same was true last year. Not sure where some of the recent TLS confusion is coming from regarding DPW.
DPW wasn't really in on those deals - their league table rank was a figment of their BS representations of peripheral parties. No one in public company M&A considers them a serious player. I don't really have a dog in this - don't work at either - but DPWs M&A practice is really mediocre considering how much of a power it is otherwise. And the folks I know who have worked in that group hated it and didn't last 4 years, which is unusual for DPW. Pretty much, it's the only DPW group id counsel a friend against joining.
Just out of curiosity, who are the biggest players in that M&A work if DPW isn't one of them? I've always thought that DPW was one of the major firms in that, but I actually don't know anything so this is interesting.

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Re: Simpson Thacher vs. Davis Polk

Post by Morgan12Oak » Wed Aug 27, 2014 5:53 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
DPW wasn't really in on those deals - their league table rank was a figment of their BS representations of peripheral parties. No one in public company M&A considers them a serious player. I don't really have a dog in this - don't work at either - but DPWs M&A practice is really mediocre considering how much of a power it is otherwise. And the folks I know who have worked in that group hated it and didn't last 4 years, which is unusual for DPW. Pretty much, it's the only DPW group id counsel a friend against joining.
lmao. so much wrong in this. doesn't DPW rep comcast AND tyson? I guess that doesn't qualify as being "in on those deals" though. Have no idea about the others [I'd assume you're wrong again] but jesus christ, do a little fact checking. It's pretty obvious you didn't get an offer from DPW or someone from DPW M&A styled on you.

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Re: Simpson Thacher vs. Davis Polk

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Aug 27, 2014 5:57 pm

You can believe the poster above who clearly got rejected by DPW or has some other weird vendetta against them, or you can believe Chambers which ranks them Band 1 Elite.

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Re: Simpson Thacher vs. Davis Polk

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Aug 27, 2014 6:19 pm

Anonymous User wrote:You can believe the poster above who clearly got rejected by DPW or has some other weird vendetta against them, or you can believe Chambers which ranks them Band 1 Elite.
Are there meaningful differences among the strengths of corporate groups when it comes to the Elite Band 1 firms? As a rising 2L, I've never considered those differences much in going through the process.

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Re: Simpson Thacher vs. Davis Polk

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Aug 27, 2014 7:21 pm

Morgan12Oak wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
DPW wasn't really in on those deals - their league table rank was a figment of their BS representations of peripheral parties. No one in public company M&A considers them a serious player. I don't really have a dog in this - don't work at either - but DPWs M&A practice is really mediocre considering how much of a power it is otherwise. And the folks I know who have worked in that group hated it and didn't last 4 years, which is unusual for DPW. Pretty much, it's the only DPW group id counsel a friend against joining.
lmao. so much wrong in this. doesn't DPW rep comcast AND tyson? I guess that doesn't qualify as being "in on those deals" though. Have no idea about the others [I'd assume you're wrong again] but jesus christ, do a little fact checking. It's pretty obvious you didn't get an offer from DPW or someone from DPW M&A styled on you.
Dude, I'm 4 years out from school, and I had a DPW offer. It has the best bank finance practice, period. The securities work is amazing. Its a killer firm. Its M&A group sucks (compared to other places where folks with DPW offers have offers) and churns junior associates. Don't go there for M&A. Please.

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Re: Simpson Thacher vs. Davis Polk

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Aug 27, 2014 7:44 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Morgan12Oak wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
DPW wasn't really in on those deals - their league table rank was a figment of their BS representations of peripheral parties. No one in public company M&A considers them a serious player. I don't really have a dog in this - don't work at either - but DPWs M&A practice is really mediocre considering how much of a power it is otherwise. And the folks I know who have worked in that group hated it and didn't last 4 years, which is unusual for DPW. Pretty much, it's the only DPW group id counsel a friend against joining.
lmao. so much wrong in this. doesn't DPW rep comcast AND tyson? I guess that doesn't qualify as being "in on those deals" though. Have no idea about the others [I'd assume you're wrong again] but jesus christ, do a little fact checking. It's pretty obvious you didn't get an offer from DPW or someone from DPW M&A styled on you.
Dude, I'm 4 years out from school, and I had a DPW offer. It has the best bank finance practice, period. The securities work is amazing. Its a killer firm. Its M&A group sucks (compared to other places where folks with DPW offers have offers) and churns junior associates. Don't go there for M&A. Please.
Please list, by name or initials, the junior DPW M&A associates who have left before their fourth year. I am a DPW M&A associate and personally know exactly who has left and to what landing spot. You cannot be more wrong than you are. Moreover, within DPW, M&A consistently churns fewer associates than cap markets and credit (which are widely regarded within the firm as having worse hours/lifestyle than M&A).

Additionally, would love to know who was "in on" the following deals (which I either personally worked on personally know the guy in the office next door who worked on them):

Roche/InterMune
Solvay/CCMP
JPM/Sankaty
Shire/AbbVie
Tencent/58.com
Tyson/Hillshire
AstraZeneca/Pfizer takeover
Morgan Stanley/TransMontaigne
Comcast/Charter
Comcast/TwC
GS/Ipreo
Roche/countless private deals
CS/DLJ
S&N/ArthroCare

etc. etc.

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Re: Simpson Thacher vs. Davis Polk

Post by Old Gregg » Wed Aug 27, 2014 8:21 pm

DPW M&A dude--don't want to interrupt your fine jerk-sesh there, but did want to say that there's no doubt that DPW's M&A group is considered a shade "not-as-prestigious" as other firms in its tier (i.e., WLRK, Cravath, S&C, Skadden, Simpson). I think, instead of arguing that it is as prestigious, better battle to pick is that maybe that "shade" of difference really doesn't make any difference as far as associate experience is concerned.

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Re: Simpson Thacher vs. Davis Polk

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Aug 27, 2014 8:57 pm

zweitbester wrote:DPW M&A dude--don't want to interrupt your fine jerk-sesh there, but did want to say that there's no doubt that DPW's M&A group is considered a shade "not-as-prestigious" as other firms in its tier (i.e., WLRK, Cravath, S&C, Skadden, Simpson). I think, instead of arguing that it is as prestigious, better battle to pick is that maybe that "shade" of difference really doesn't make any difference as far as associate experience is concerned.
Completely agree with this. And to the extent my posts were trying to argue the opposite, I clearly miscommunicated. Was pretty outraged at the suggestion that our group was "mediocre". No question that STB has a great PE practice (and has done some cool public company work as well). Skadden has a great F500 practice. WLRK is almost peerless with respect to what they do.

Agree that the shade of difference likely doesn't make too much difference with respect associate life, unless you really want to do PE work or do a lot of takeover defense or do Skadden-style M&A (and have the background/experience to be able to actually know that's what you want). The firms you list are all excellent firms and generally have a better M&A practice than we do-- as you say, by a shade. But the previous anon is clearly incorrect and that's what I was trying to object to.

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Re: Simpson Thacher vs. Davis Polk

Post by Old Gregg » Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:04 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
zweitbester wrote:DPW M&A dude--don't want to interrupt your fine jerk-sesh there, but did want to say that there's no doubt that DPW's M&A group is considered a shade "not-as-prestigious" as other firms in its tier (i.e., WLRK, Cravath, S&C, Skadden, Simpson). I think, instead of arguing that it is as prestigious, better battle to pick is that maybe that "shade" of difference really doesn't make any difference as far as associate experience is concerned.
Completely agree with this. And to the extent my posts were trying to argue the opposite, I clearly miscommunicated. Was pretty outraged at the suggestion that our group was "mediocre". No question that STB has a great PE practice (and has done some cool public company work as well). Skadden has a great F500 practice. WLRK is almost peerless with respect to what they do.

Agree that the shade of difference likely doesn't make too much difference with respect associate life, unless you really want to do PE work or do a lot of takeover defense or do Skadden-style M&A (and have the background/experience to be able to actually know that's what you want). The firms you list are all excellent firms and generally have a better M&A practice than we do-- as you say, by a shade. But the previous anon is clearly incorrect and that's what I was trying to object to.
yup. and shame on you for not listing Heinz/3G/Berkshire Hathaway. That deffo helped in the league tables.

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Re: Simpson Thacher vs. Davis Polk

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Aug 27, 2014 10:51 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
zweitbester wrote:DPW M&A dude--don't want to interrupt your fine jerk-sesh there, but did want to say that there's no doubt that DPW's M&A group is considered a shade "not-as-prestigious" as other firms in its tier (i.e., WLRK, Cravath, S&C, Skadden, Simpson). I think, instead of arguing that it is as prestigious, better battle to pick is that maybe that "shade" of difference really doesn't make any difference as far as associate experience is concerned.
Completely agree with this. And to the extent my posts were trying to argue the opposite, I clearly miscommunicated. Was pretty outraged at the suggestion that our group was "mediocre". No question that STB has a great PE practice (and has done some cool public company work as well). Skadden has a great F500 practice. WLRK is almost peerless with respect to what they do.

Agree that the shade of difference likely doesn't make too much difference with respect associate life, unless you really want to do PE work or do a lot of takeover defense or do Skadden-style M&A (and have the background/experience to be able to actually know that's what you want). The firms you list are all excellent firms and generally have a better M&A practice than we do-- as you say, by a shade. But the previous anon is clearly incorrect and that's what I was trying to object to.
The horrific experiences I heard of in DPW M&A were class of 2008-2010. Any further info obviously outs them, which is unreasonable. But the stories I heard about what they experienced at DPW and the intragroup politics resulting from a couple of very lean years were so horrifying that I don't think its fair to steer folks there who have offers at STB (or Cravath, etc.). If it's your M&A group or Morty's at White and Case, I'm telling folks to take the DPW every day and twice on Sundays, but these are folks with opportunities at firms with more stable and larger M&A practices with better deal flow. I'm not saying you're a shitty associate or your partners are shitty, I'm saying that relative to DPW as a whole the M&A practice is relatively mediocre. (If I say relatively three times instead of once, will you read it this time?) Which is common knowledge to everyone in the industry, see above in this thread. I think that the M&A lawyers at DPW are obviously superb and could train the hell out of anyone.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Wed Aug 27, 2014 10:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Simpson Thacher vs. Davis Polk

Post by Old Gregg » Wed Aug 27, 2014 10:54 pm

If it's your M&A group or Morty's at White and Case,
I like how you casually name drop "Morty" here. This is great.

Dumbass.

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Re: Simpson Thacher vs. Davis Polk

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Aug 28, 2014 12:46 am

Not a Davis Polk M&A lawyer, but I'm pretty sure repping Comcast in acquiring Time Warner Cable counts as top-tier public company M&A work. Now, you might say "who wants to do top-tier public company M&A work?" and I might agree with you, but that is the subject at hand.

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Re: Simpson Thacher vs. Davis Polk

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Aug 28, 2014 1:12 am

If OP actually wanted to do cap markets as they also listed, this would swing way back into Davis Polk's camp. I don't really know how one could know for sure what type of transactions they will like (tolerate) as an incoming 2L unless they were in IB or PE before law school. So I would go to the best rounded practice, which seems to be DPW to me. Simpson has more private equity m&a work due to blackstone/kkr/ect as institutional clients but again, how can you know that's exactly what you want??

Also DPW has prettier offices by a long shot

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Re: Simpson Thacher vs. Davis Polk

Post by Morgan12Oak » Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:16 am

Literally everything he said has been proven wrong. Basically, that DPW M&A hater got pumped and dumped by someone in the DPW M&A group. /end thread.

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Re: Simpson Thacher vs. Davis Polk

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:17 am

Also DPW has prettier offices by a long shot
FWIW the new STB look is pretty sleek and the renovations will probably be more than halfway done by the time a current 2L summer would be coming in as an associate

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