What is Redeeming about V20 (aside from Wachtell bonus)?

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Phil Brooks

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What is Redeeming about V20 (aside from Wachtell bonus)?

Postby Phil Brooks » Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:03 am

The impression I get from alumni and current SAs who are at highly ranked firms (especially in their big offices) is as follows:

"I don't do a lot of substantive work and the senior associates and partners don't know my name and the hours are unforgiving and I won't make it past 5 years let alone make partner but it's worth it because Vault ranking."

If one is not a prestige whore, what is attractive about V20?

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Re: What is Redeeming about V20 (aside from Wachtell bonus)?

Postby englawyer » Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:44 am

exit options. if you put in your time for a few years, you will have a good chance at going in-house for brand name clients and/or lateraling down the food chain to firms that will appreciate your prestige-whoring.

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Re: What is Redeeming about V20 (aside from Wachtell bonus)?

Postby Phil Brooks » Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:10 am

englawyer wrote:exit options. if you put in your time for a few years, you will have a good chance at going in-house for brand name clients and/or lateraling down the food chain to firms that will appreciate your prestige-whoring.


Appreciate the response. But why would clients hire you if they never got the chance to meet you during the five years you spent doc-reviewing? And if the ultimate goal is to join a firm down the food chain, wouldn't it make more sense just to join one of those firms directly in the first place, out of law school?

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Re: What is Redeeming about V20 (aside from Wachtell bonus)?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:43 am

Phil Brooks wrote:
englawyer wrote:exit options. if you put in your time for a few years, you will have a good chance at going in-house for brand name clients and/or lateraling down the food chain to firms that will appreciate your prestige-whoring.


Appreciate the response. But why would clients hire you if they never got the chance to meet you during the five years you spent doc-reviewing? And if the ultimate goal is to join a firm down the food chain, wouldn't it make more sense just to join one of those firms directly in the first place, out of law school?


Obviously you're asking this question when you already have a fully formed opinion on the matter. I'm sure you feel insecure at whatever V100 firm you're at, but let's live and let live and let those of us at V5s do our thing, and we'll let you handle the mid-market clients we would never touch in peace.

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Re: What is Redeeming about V20 (aside from Wachtell bonus)?

Postby Phil Brooks » Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:48 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Phil Brooks wrote:
englawyer wrote:exit options. if you put in your time for a few years, you will have a good chance at going in-house for brand name clients and/or lateraling down the food chain to firms that will appreciate your prestige-whoring.


Appreciate the response. But why would clients hire you if they never got the chance to meet you during the five years you spent doc-reviewing? And if the ultimate goal is to join a firm down the food chain, wouldn't it make more sense just to join one of those firms directly in the first place, out of law school?


Obviously you're asking this question when you already have a fully formed opinion on the matter. I'm sure you feel insecure at whatever V100 firm you're at, but let's live and let live and let those of us at V5s do our thing, and we'll let you handle the mid-market clients we would never touch in peace.


You are being a tad sensitive and making unfounded accusations. I am approaching OCI and have interviews with firms ranging from the top to the bottom of the Vault list. I am trying to make an informed decision among those firms and would appreciate a civil response.

Do you think your attitude is representative of those of the people at V5 firms?

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Re: What is Redeeming about V20 (aside from Wachtell bonus)?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:52 am

You are being a tad sensitive and making unfounded accusations. I am approaching OCI and have interviews with firms ranging from the top to the bottom of the Vault list. I am trying to make an informed decision among those firms and would appreciate a civil response.

Do you think your attitude is representative of those of the people at V5 firms?


Without being facetious, yes, I think it is.

If you're not one of those people who get something out of the fact that you're working at one of the best law firms in the world, helping the biggest corporations and/or wealthiest individuals, your interests are better better served by going to smaller "lifestyle" firm.

It's very much worth it to me to work long hours if it means I get to work with the best for the best. I fully admit that I'm a prestige whore.

And to your earlier loaded questions:

-Who do you think JP Morgan is going to hire? An associate from the V5 firm it has a 100 year relationship with, even if that associate has never directly met the clients or taken on "substantial responsibilities", or an associate from a V100 who's never come within 1000 feet of a client of the same caliber?

-Ask around at any of the V100 firms down the food chain--you'll find that a good chunk of their senior associates came from a V10 or V20 firm. For some reason, I've never heard of any senior associates at a V10 who came from a V100...

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Re: What is Redeeming about V20 (aside from Wachtell bonus)?

Postby Phil Brooks » Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:13 am

Anonymous User wrote:
You are being a tad sensitive and making unfounded accusations. I am approaching OCI and have interviews with firms ranging from the top to the bottom of the Vault list. I am trying to make an informed decision among those firms and would appreciate a civil response.

Do you think your attitude is representative of those of the people at V5 firms?


Without being facetious, yes, I think it is.

If you're not one of those people who get something out of the fact that you're working at one of the best law firms in the world, helping the biggest corporations and/or wealthiest individuals, your interests are better better served by going to smaller "lifestyle" firm.

It's very much worth it to me to work long hours if it means I get to work with the best for the best. I fully admit that I'm a prestige whore.

And to your earlier loaded questions:

-Who do you think JP Morgan is going to hire? An associate from the V5 firm it has a 100 year relationship with, even if that associate has never directly met the clients or taken on "substantial responsibilities", or an associate from a V100 who's never come within 1000 feet of a client of the same caliber?

-Ask around at any of the V100 firms down the food chain--you'll find that a good chunk of their senior associates came from a V10 or V20 firm. For some reason, I've never heard of any senior associates at a V10 who came from a V100...


Thanks for the candor. If I can return the favor, in my experience working for law firms before law school and now during 1L summer, non-substantive work is not rendered more interesting by the knowledge that it is part of a high-profile case. "Prestige" seems to me as little more than a way to trick people into paying more money (for a higher ranked school) and doing less meaningful tasks (for a higher ranked firm). But you and I have different ways of looking at the world and that's fine; one learns from hearing different perspectives.

In terms of your answers to my questions re exit options:
-Have you, then, had "substantial responsibilities"?

-I was not talking about going from V100 to V10, to use your dichotomy. I was talking about starting directly at a V100 and getting promoted from within. You seem to suggest that lower-ranked firms would rather hire senior associates from higher-ranked firms than promote their own. Is this accurate?

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Re: What is Redeeming about V20 (aside from Wachtell bonus)?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:32 am

Thanks for the candor. If I can return the favor, in my experience working for law firms before law school and now during 1L summer, non-substantive work is not rendered more interesting by the knowledge that it is part of a high-profile case. "Prestige" seems to me as little more than a way to trick people into paying more money (for a higher ranked school) and doing less meaningful tasks (for a higher ranked firm). But you and I have different ways of looking at the world and that's fine; one learns from hearing different perspectives.

In terms of your answers to my questions re exit options:
-Have you, then, had "substantial responsibilities"?

-I was not talking about going from V100 to V10, to use your dichotomy. I was talking about starting directly at a V100 and getting promoted from within. You seem to suggest that lower-ranked firms would rather hire senior associates from higher-ranked firms than promote their own. Is this accurate?


Ok. You seem more reasonable than I initially thought so apologies for being rude.

We can agree to disagree on prestige and general worldviews.

As for the other 2 questions:

-I think answering the question this way compares apples to oranges. I've done work (perhaps work that you would call "unsubstantial") on extremely complex deals that someone at a lower ranked firm would never see no matter how senior they are. Do you think it's better to slowly learn to do all the things required of extremely complex deals, or be able to right away take on straightforward deals at a higher level as a junior? If you're a litigator, the same goes for cases. Clients hire V5 firms to handle deals and cases that are important--things that they believe a lesser ranked and less expensive firm wouldn't know how to do. This is why I think its wrong to point to a V5 associate and say "HA! We're both first years, and I ran my own deal but you're still doing due diligence! You suck!" The deals that V5 associate will eventually run will look much different than the one you did as a junior. Which one you prefer is obviously totally subjective.

-I have no idea what V100 firms prefer in terms of promotion. I'm just saying that anecdotally, a large percentage of senior associates at V100 firms came from V10 firms, whereas a large percentage of senior associates at V10 firms are promoted from within. Make of that what you will.

And our differences aside, I wish you the best of luck at OCI.

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Re: What is Redeeming about V20 (aside from Wachtell bonus)?

Postby Phil Brooks » Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:39 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Thanks for the candor. If I can return the favor, in my experience working for law firms before law school and now during 1L summer, non-substantive work is not rendered more interesting by the knowledge that it is part of a high-profile case. "Prestige" seems to me as little more than a way to trick people into paying more money (for a higher ranked school) and doing less meaningful tasks (for a higher ranked firm). But you and I have different ways of looking at the world and that's fine; one learns from hearing different perspectives.

In terms of your answers to my questions re exit options:
-Have you, then, had "substantial responsibilities"?

-I was not talking about going from V100 to V10, to use your dichotomy. I was talking about starting directly at a V100 and getting promoted from within. You seem to suggest that lower-ranked firms would rather hire senior associates from higher-ranked firms than promote their own. Is this accurate?


Ok. You seem more reasonable than I initially thought so apologies for being rude.

We can agree to disagree on prestige and general worldviews.

As for the other 2 questions:

-I think answering the question this way compares apples to oranges. I've done work (perhaps work that you would call "unsubstantial") on extremely complex deals that someone at a lower ranked firm would never see no matter how senior they are. Do you think it's better to slowly learn to do all the things required of extremely complex deals, or be able to right away take on straightforward deals at a higher level as a junior? If you're a litigator, the same goes for cases. Clients hire V5 firms to handle deals and cases that are important--things that they believe a lesser ranked and less expensive firm wouldn't know how to do. This is why I think its wrong to point to a V5 associate and say "HA! We're both first years, and I ran my own deal but you're still doing due diligence! You suck!" The deals that V5 associate will eventually run will look much different than the one you did as a junior. Which one you prefer is obviously totally subjective.

-I have no idea what V100 firms prefer in terms of promotion. I'm just saying that anecdotally, a large percentage of senior associates at V100 firms came from V10 firms, whereas a large percentage of senior associates at V10 firms are promoted from within. Make of that what you will.

And our differences aside, I wish you the best of luck at OCI.


Thanks, those answers are quite helpful. Congratulations on your obvious success at OCI.

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Re: What is Redeeming about V20 (aside from Wachtell bonus)?

Postby TooOld4This » Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:59 am

I'll try to get back to this thread later, but as someone who has experience with V20, "lifestyle" firms, and hiring said firms, I'll put a marker down that the poster working at the firm is justifying his prestige chasing on the head of a pin's worth of truth. His arguments aren't completely fanciful, but require caveats and limitations at nearly every turn.

OP: short answer, for some practices and some exit options, the V20 gives you a chance to carve a name for yourself that wouldn't be possible to do elsewhere. (Note, I said chance. Associates at V20 firms are not treated equally.). They also tend to have overall solid reputations across the widest number of practice areas (some being absolutely top of the field, but even the "worst" practice groups are still respected). Factoring in that "lifestyle" firms are largely a flame, law students with weakly defined goals and no other meaningful yardstick gravitate towards these firms as safe and obvious next steps for historically high achievers.

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Re: What is Redeeming about V20 (aside from Wachtell bonus)?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:27 am

Phil Brooks wrote:The impression I get from alumni and current SAs who are at highly ranked firms (especially in their big offices) is as follows:

"I don't do a lot of substantive work and the senior associates and partners don't know my name and the hours are unforgiving and I won't make it past 5 years let alone make partner but it's worth it because Vault ranking."

If one is not a prestige whore, what is attractive about V20?


1st year V-5 associate here. A few points:

First, I'm not sure what you mean by substantive work (and law students generally don't have a clue about what this means), but my tasks have included drafting significant portions of SPA's, attending negotiating sessions and revising deal documents based on those negotiations, and daily (sometimes hourly) contact with the client to get everything ready for and through signing. I certainly do my fair share of signing checklists and diligence, but at my firm mid-levels will also jump in to do those tasks when things get really crazy. I'm not sure if my experience is typical, but I've found that people are willing to give me as much as they think I can handle.

Second, it may be hard to grasp this as a law student, but legal work, especially when everything is bespoke, is pretty complicated. If I handed you an SPA and asked you to mark it up you might spot typos and cross reference errors, but it is unlikely that you would catch the higher level issues that are driving the deal. I can only speak for corporate work, but my experience has been that junior level work is focused on getting our hands on as many deal documents as possible so that we can learn how they work. And yes, this includes diligence and running changes made by senior associates.

Third, in my mind the biggest benefit of being at a V-20ish firm is the volume and complexity of deals. You get to get your hands on so much that your learning curve is accelerated. You also get to work closely with some of the elite lawyers in your practice group. I would never say that lower ranked firms just do commodity work, but a quick glance at M&A league tables shows that a small handful of firms do the vast majority of the deals when measured by volume.

With all that in mind, while vault rankings are definitely flawed, working in a firm that excels in your chosen practice area is a pretty good start to your legal career. This type of firm is not necessarily a V-20, but the top firms tend to have a higher concentration of elite practice groups.

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Re: What is Redeeming about V20 (aside from Wachtell bonus)?

Postby 2014 » Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:49 am

The hours and experience at a V(arbitrary number higher than 20) firm are marginally better at best while the exit options are significantly worse/more volatile. It's not like Kaye Scholer is letting 2nd years do things that only 6th years at Simpson are doing, they are doing largely the same tasks. It's not a question of going to the V# to collect your paycheck for a smooth 1800 hour year while the V20 suddenly demands 2800. Within the same markets it's all the same shit. As a result it's somewhat rational to whore yourself out for prestige with the caveat that some firms have practice areas that are significantly stronger than Vault suggests the firm overall is.

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Re: What is Redeeming about V20 (aside from Wachtell bonus)?

Postby gchatbrah » Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:56 am

By and large, the v20 are the healthiest firms in the post-recession world, and outside of Lathaming (read: a freak occurrence), they're also the safest places to be early on in your career. This is a comparison of v20 against the v100 on average -- obviously, places like Williams & Connolly, non-Vault tax boutiques, etc. cut against this characterization.

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Re: What is Redeeming about V20 (aside from Wachtell bonus)?

Postby DELG » Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:23 am

Tagging this best thread of law student wisdom I have seen in some time

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Re: What is Redeeming about V20 (aside from Wachtell bonus)?

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:24 am

All of the downsides you ascribe to "V20" firms are in fact downsides of NYC biglaw firms in general without regard to their relative prestige. Don't think that going to a firm ranked in the 90s or something is going to get you better hours or more responsibility or that you'll make partner.

So downsides aside, what are the upsides? The top handful of firms are far more recession-proof and stable than some lower in the pecking order. They're generally busier and less likely to stealth layoff people as a matter of course. They're widely known and respected, which matters in this industry and when you're unlikely to stay at your first job more than a few years. They have wide ranges of strong practice areas. And, though the partners at any major biglaw firm will be impressive on the whole, the top firms give you a chance to learn from some of the most prominent and successful people in their fields.

There will be specific firms that are lower in the Vault ranks that make more sense for certain people for a variety of reasons. But if we're talking generally, then there isn't much reason for the average person to forgo the higher ranked firms for a lower ranked one. The lifestyle trade offs just don't work that way.
Last edited by dixiecupdrinking on Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What is Redeeming about V20 (aside from Wachtell bonus)?

Postby Phil Brooks » Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:26 am

TooOld4This wrote:I'll try to get back to this thread later, but as someone who has experience with V20, "lifestyle" firms, and hiring said firms, I'll put a marker down that the poster working at the firm is justifying his prestige chasing on the head of a pin's worth of truth. His arguments aren't completely fanciful, but require caveats and limitations at nearly every turn.

OP: short answer, for some practices and some exit options, the V20 gives you a chance to carve a name for yourself that wouldn't be possible to do elsewhere. (Note, I said chance. Associates at V20 firms are not treated equally.). They also tend to have overall solid reputations across the widest number of practice areas (some being absolutely top of the field, but even the "worst" practice groups are still respected). Factoring in that "lifestyle" firms are largely a flame, law students with weakly defined goals and no other meaningful yardstick gravitate towards these firms as safe and obvious next steps for historically high achievers.


Thanks, I look forward to your further posts.

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Re: What is Redeeming about V20 (aside from Wachtell bonus)?

Postby Phil Brooks » Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:41 am

Thank you to everyone for your candid responses. I do not meant to denigrate anybody's choice and I apologize if the tone of the OP implied that I did.

The context of this thread is my experience. As a paralegal before law school I worked for a V80-ish in a niche practice area. It was a wonderful experience as I was able to, for example, write draft witness statements and draft factual sections of pleadings. One year of law school and $40k later, I am with a V20 and frankly have done less writing and more doc review than I did as a paralegal, albeit for more high profile cases.

So I am trying to get a sense of if my experience is representative. The perspective of anyone who has worked for both a V100 and V5, to use the crude dichotomy, would be much appreciated.

But I understand from what has been written that safety and exit options are the two biggest draws of more prestigious firms.

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Re: What is Redeeming about V20 (aside from Wachtell bonus)?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:55 am

You have to understand that not all associates are treated the same - in part because not all associates turn out to have the "talent" to be a long term biglaw lawyer. (I put talent in quotes, because IMO the 3 biggest skills that comprise biglaw "talent" are (1) need less sleep than average, (2) dont make mistakes and (3) generally unrattled by anything, and query what that says about the law.)

If you have the quote-unquote talent, then being at a top firm is incredible. You get to do all the substantive work you're describing, but at the highest level - the most complex issues, the highest stakes, etc. After a few years of it, you've developed an incredibly valuable skillset. You should see the job offers you get.

If you dont, then its miserable. Brutal hours, same shitty work, and no one gives you the time of day. They're just finding a way to make money off you for 2-3 years till you leave, and you're finding a way to survive till your debt is paid off.

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Re: What is Redeeming about V20 (aside from Wachtell bonus)?

Postby baal hadad » Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:10 am

Can someone tell me the advantages of working at a v23 as opposed to a v67?

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Re: What is Redeeming about V20 (aside from Wachtell bonus)?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:12 am

I work at a V5 in one of our top practice groups. I get tons of client contact, tons of substantive work, and am regularly called by recruiters looking to place me at lower vault firms.

We ALSO sometimes hire people from lower vault firms, but it's realistic to expect that for "exit options" the vault/chambers guides give you a VERY ROUGH sense of the pecking order.

Vault is a shitty proxy for quality of life though, and practice group is a much better proxy for "exit options" and things like that.

One other big thing is financial stability - the firms with more uniformly positive reputations are also less likely to explode, no-offer people, etc.

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Re: What is Redeeming about V20 (aside from Wachtell bonus)?

Postby Old Gregg » Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:25 am

I think being at a V20 or whatever definitely influences your "exits" to other law firms (in broad strokes). Hard to go from DLA Piper to S&C, but far easier to do it the other way around.

But the idea that V20 is better for in-house is absolute bullshit. In-house opportunities directly depend on what the firm's client base is and what your practice experience is. If your goal is to go in-house in the financial services industry, then yes a V10 is probably the best move (though not all V10s are created alike in this regard). If your goal is to work for Google, then you're far better served working at WSGR. If your goal is to work for Exxon, it's a great idea to be at Baker Botts or V&E down in Houston.

Practice group is just as important. Run of the mill commercial litigators don't have as much success as IP litigators for in-house jobs, who don't have as much success as corporate lawyers, who don't have as much success as IP transactional or employee benefits lawyers, who in turn don't have as much success as tax lawyers do.

And sometimes blindly searching for prestige will probably hurt you more than it harms you. For example, K&E, which is a V10 firm, has pretty terrible in-house options because, even on the corporate side, the client base is almost exclusively private equity. Private equity doesn't hire a lot of lawyers (especially not the middle market ones). Latham, on the other hand, I've heard is in-house placement king. Too bad it's a shitty place to work.

But at the end of the day, you've gotta get this Vault shit out of your head. Know a girl who is GC at Y Combinator and worked at WSGR as an associate before that, and know a few dudes who lateraled into compliance at JPMorgan from S&C.

I envy the girl.

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Re: What is Redeeming about V20 (aside from Wachtell bonus)?

Postby 09042014 » Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:40 am

Only the cream go to White and Case.

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Re: What is Redeeming about V20 (aside from Wachtell bonus)?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:47 am

Anonymous User wrote:
You are being a tad sensitive and making unfounded accusations. I am approaching OCI and have interviews with firms ranging from the top to the bottom of the Vault list. I am trying to make an informed decision among those firms and would appreciate a civil response.

Do you think your attitude is representative of those of the people at V5 firms?


Without being facetious, yes, I think it is.

If you're not one of those people who get something out of the fact that you're working at one of the best law firms in the world, helping the biggest corporations and/or wealthiest individuals, your interests are better better served by going to smaller "lifestyle" firm.

It's very much worth it to me to work long hours if it means I get to work with the best for the best. I fully admit that I'm a prestige whore.

And to your earlier loaded questions:

-Who do you think JP Morgan is going to hire? An associate from the V5 firm it has a 100 year relationship with, even if that associate has never directly met the clients or taken on "substantial responsibilities", or an associate from a V100 who's never come within 1000 feet of a client of the same caliber?

-Ask around at any of the V100 firms down the food chain--you'll find that a good chunk of their senior associates came from a V10 or V20 firm. For some reason, I've never heard of any senior associates at a V10 who came from a V100...

How does that work with a firm like Fried Frank, where the atmosphere is (slightly) more relaxed, but they're doing a bunch of deals with Goldman on as the Ibanker? I mean, I know S&C is THE PLACE if you want to work with Goldman, but do people from these lower ranked firms really have no shot when they actually are working with GS regularly? *I don't mean this to sound contentious. I'm a rising 2L so I have not dog in this fight

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Re: What is Redeeming about V20 (aside from Wachtell bonus)?

Postby Old Gregg » Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:51 am

How does that work with a firm like Fried Frank, where the atmosphere is (slightly) more relaxed, but they're doing a bunch of deals with Goldman on as the Ibanker? I mean, I know S&C is THE PLACE if you want to work with Goldman, but do people from these lower ranked firms really have no shot when they actually are working with GS regularly? *I don't mean this to sound contentious. I'm a rising 2L so I have not dog in this fight


Don't worry, you can go into Goldman from FF and many other firms. Yes, as you note, S&C for highest probability, but other firms don't shut you out.

-Who do you think JP Morgan is going to hire? An associate from the V5 firm it has a 100 year relationship with, even if that associate has never directly met the clients or taken on "substantial responsibilities", or an associate from a V100 who's never come within 1000 feet of a client of the same caliber?


I know plenty of attorneys at JPMorgan who never touched a V5. The client relationship only really helps when you're being pushed out and your firm is looking to help place you somewhere. Otherwise, if the experience you have isn't applicable, you're toast like every other Tom Dick and Harry.

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Re: What is Redeeming about V20 (aside from Wachtell bonus)?

Postby Old Gregg » Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:52 am

Anonymous User wrote:
You are being a tad sensitive and making unfounded accusations. I am approaching OCI and have interviews with firms ranging from the top to the bottom of the Vault list. I am trying to make an informed decision among those firms and would appreciate a civil response.

Do you think your attitude is representative of those of the people at V5 firms?


Without being facetious, yes, I think it is.

If you're not one of those people who get something out of the fact that you're working at one of the best law firms in the world, helping the biggest corporations and/or wealthiest individuals, your interests are better better served by going to smaller "lifestyle" firm.

It's very much worth it to me to work long hours if it means I get to work with the best for the best. I fully admit that I'm a prestige whore.

And to your earlier loaded questions:

-Who do you think JP Morgan is going to hire? An associate from the V5 firm it has a 100 year relationship with, even if that associate has never directly met the clients or taken on "substantial responsibilities", or an associate from a V100 who's never come within 1000 feet of a client of the same caliber?

-Ask around at any of the V100 firms down the food chain--you'll find that a good chunk of their senior associates came from a V10 or V20 firm. For some reason, I've never heard of any senior associates at a V10 who came from a V100...


Man you're going to be miserable in life.



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