Columbia EIP 2014 Forum

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Re: Columbia EIP 2014

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:56 pm

Anonymous User wrote:While we're on the topic of clothing: any male fashionistas have good shirt color/tie color recommendations for a light gray suit? Love the suit, not sure what to pair with it.
For OCI? White shirt, deep red tie (think burgundy). Nothing too bright. It's classic and'll work fine.

If you need to get a tie, thetiebar.com is pretty cheap ($15) and has a bunch of good ones, solid quality.

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Re: Columbia EIP 2014

Post by txdude45 » Fri Jul 18, 2014 12:19 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:While we're on the topic of clothing: any male fashionistas have good shirt color/tie color recommendations for a light gray suit? Love the suit, not sure what to pair with it.
For OCI? White shirt, deep red tie (think burgundy). Nothing too bright. It's classic and'll work fine.
I'm also wearing a grey suit for at least one day, but I'm going with more colorful shirts for EIP. Considering that most of the associates I've seen have had patterned multi-color shirts, I'm much more comfortable putting a little personality into the endeavor. I think solid matte ties are always the only option though.

Since I can barely dress myself, I usually do google image searches and copy what models are wearing.

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Re: Columbia EIP 2014

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:28 am

txdude45 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:While we're on the topic of clothing: any male fashionistas have good shirt color/tie color recommendations for a light gray suit? Love the suit, not sure what to pair with it.
For OCI? White shirt, deep red tie (think burgundy). Nothing too bright. It's classic and'll work fine.
I'm also wearing a grey suit for at least one day, but I'm going with more colorful shirts for EIP. Considering that most of the associates I've seen have had patterned multi-color shirts, I'm much more comfortable putting a little personality into the endeavor. I think solid matte ties are always the only option though.

Since I can barely dress myself, I usually do google image searches and copy what models are wearing.

This is bad advice. When I did OCI, I was advised on how to dress by my father, a then-partner at a top NY firm. He actually made me go buy a cheaper, more conservative suit than the ones I already had, which were nice suits I'd had made for me in a good tailor in Hong Kong. His general point was that "if anyone notices what you are wearing, for good or for bad, you've fucked up"

Navy or dark grey suit - not super expensive looking, either, you're a student and shouldn't look like you're putting loro piana the fourth through college. White shirt. striped tie, preferably brick red with navy or a soft blue with a grey suit. You want to look like a congressman and some sort of hearing.

Your clothes should NOT show personality because that is a luxury your interviewer has because he has the job and you don't. Make your clothes invisible - the focus is on you. You want to be close enough to trend in terms of cut so that you don't look like you lived on Mars for the last decade, so don't wear your dad's suit from 1985, but otherwise as conservative as possible (in other words no super tight cuts, etc). Think about it: why would you wear a shirt than 90% of people like but 10% think obnoxious? It's no different than intentionally saying something at your interview that you know some non-zero percentage of associates think is stupid.

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Re: Columbia EIP 2014

Post by txdude45 » Sun Jul 20, 2014 9:36 am

accidental anon

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Re: Columbia EIP 2014

Post by txdude45 » Sun Jul 20, 2014 9:40 am

Anonymous User wrote:
txdude45 wrote:
I'm also wearing a grey suit for at least one day, but I'm going with more colorful shirts for EIP. Considering that most of the associates I've seen have had patterned multi-color shirts, I'm much more comfortable putting a little personality into the endeavor. I think solid matte ties are always the only option though.

Since I can barely dress myself, I usually do google image searches and copy what models are wearing.

This is bad advice. When I did OCI, I was advised on how to dress by my father, a then-partner at a top NY firm. He actually made me go buy a cheaper, more conservative suit than the ones I already had, which were nice suits I'd had made for me in a good tailor in Hong Kong. His general point was that "if anyone notices what you are wearing, for good or for bad, you've fucked up"

Navy or dark grey suit - not super expensive looking, either, you're a student and shouldn't look like you're putting loro piana the fourth through college. White shirt. striped tie, preferably brick red with navy or a soft blue with a grey suit. You want to look like a congressman and some sort of hearing.

Your clothes should NOT show personality because that is a luxury your interviewer has because he has the job and you don't. Make your clothes invisible - the focus is on you. You want to be close enough to trend in terms of cut so that you don't look like you lived on Mars for the last decade, so don't wear your dad's suit from 1985, but otherwise as conservative as possible (in other words no super tight cuts, etc). Think about it: why would you wear a shirt than 90% of people like but 10% think obnoxious? It's no different than intentionally saying something at your interview that you know some non-zero percentage of associates think is stupid.
Well, what I've done has worked very well so far. Something you haven't considered is that you're already going to stick out like a sore thumb at a business casual firm anyway because they're all in plainer pants and shirts that aren't solid white or blue. I went on one callback in dark grey suit/white shirt and was uncomfortably overdressed. I dressed down in light blue or grey with a pattered shirt for the others, actually looked like I belonged in the building, and felt 100% more comfortable.

I play to the firm. If they're business casual, I lighten the suit and wear a shirt I actually like. If they're business formal (haven't had one of these yet), I'll go with the classic suit/tie combos. You don't have to agree with me, but I've converted every callback so far to an offer, so clearly my advice isn't bad.

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Re: Columbia EIP 2014

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:04 am

txdude45 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
txdude45 wrote:
I'm also wearing a grey suit for at least one day, but I'm going with more colorful shirts for EIP. Considering that most of the associates I've seen have had patterned multi-color shirts, I'm much more comfortable putting a little personality into the endeavor. I think solid matte ties are always the only option though.

Since I can barely dress myself, I usually do google image searches and copy what models are wearing.

This is bad advice. When I did OCI, I was advised on how to dress by my father, a then-partner at a top NY firm. He actually made me go buy a cheaper, more conservative suit than the ones I already had, which were nice suits I'd had made for me in a good tailor in Hong Kong. His general point was that "if anyone notices what you are wearing, for good or for bad, you've fucked up"

Navy or dark grey suit - not super expensive looking, either, you're a student and shouldn't look like you're putting loro piana the fourth through college. White shirt. striped tie, preferably brick red with navy or a soft blue with a grey suit. You want to look like a congressman and some sort of hearing.

Your clothes should NOT show personality because that is a luxury your interviewer has because he has the job and you don't. Make your clothes invisible - the focus is on you. You want to be close enough to trend in terms of cut so that you don't look like you lived on Mars for the last decade, so don't wear your dad's suit from 1985, but otherwise as conservative as possible (in other words no super tight cuts, etc). Think about it: why would you wear a shirt than 90% of people like but 10% think obnoxious? It's no different than intentionally saying something at your interview that you know some non-zero percentage of associates think is stupid.
Well, what I've done has worked very well so far. Something you haven't considered is that you're already going to stick out like a sore thumb at a business casual firm anyway because they're all in plainer pants and shirts that aren't solid white or blue. I went on one callback in dark grey suit/white shirt and was uncomfortably overdressed. I dressed down in light blue or grey with a pattered shirt for the others, actually looked like I belonged in the building, and felt 100% more comfortable.

I play to the firm. If they're business casual, I lighten the suit and wear a shirt I actually like. If they're business formal (haven't had one of these yet), I'll go with the classic suit/tie combos. You don't have to agree with me, but I've converted every callback so far to an offer, so clearly my advice isn't bad.
Presumably you can see the logical flaw in the bolded.

You may be an outlier. You may be interviewing in TX/the south.

Just because you're more comfortable in wearing something that's risky and interview better that way doesn't mean you should tell the average OCI interviewer to do so. The common advice on TLS is that your dress should not be noticed either way. That is absolutely the best advice re: dress even if there are certain outliers.

I know people who had very awkward conversations about how they were dressed in their interviews and regretted following the advice you just gave. This is especially true at firms in lower manhattan.

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Re: Columbia EIP 2014

Post by txdude45 » Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:25 am

Anonymous User wrote:
txdude45 wrote:
Well, what I've done has worked very well so far. Something you haven't considered is that you're already going to stick out like a sore thumb at a business casual firm anyway because they're all in plainer pants and shirts that aren't solid white or blue. I went on one callback in dark grey suit/white shirt and was uncomfortably overdressed. I dressed down in light blue or grey with a pattered shirt for the others, actually looked like I belonged in the building, and felt 100% more comfortable.

I play to the firm. If they're business casual, I lighten the suit and wear a shirt I actually like. If they're business formal (haven't had one of these yet), I'll go with the classic suit/tie combos. You don't have to agree with me, but I've converted every callback so far to an offer, so clearly my advice isn't bad.
Presumably you can see the logical flaw in the bolded.

You may be an outlier. You may be interviewing in TX/the south.

Just because you're more comfortable in wearing something that's risky and interview better that way doesn't mean you should tell the average OCI interviewer to do so. The common advice on TLS is that your dress should not be noticed either way. That is absolutely the best advice re: dress even if there are certain outliers.

I know people who had very awkward conversations about how they were dressed in their interviews and regretted following the advice you just gave. This is especially true at firms in lower manhattan.
Yeah, that bolded part was marginally useful anecdotal stuff. The firms I've been to (all in NY) were business casual, so I stood out less by wearing what I wore. I'm not saying people should do what I do, I'm saying that it is reasonable to do what I do. Some places you'll absolutely want to go traditional, but if you don't need to I don't see the point in doing so. Like you said, I'm more comfortable dressing that way, so I take the (incredibly slight) risk someone will feel a certain way about what I wore. Everyone has to run that calc for themselves.

Sidenote: $50 Chipotle gift card for anyone who has the grapes to rock a tan or seersucker suit to EIP or a callback.

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Re: Columbia EIP 2014

Post by NYe » Sun Jul 20, 2014 3:03 pm

You'd make Bobbitt proud.

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Re: Columbia EIP 2014

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:17 pm

txdude45 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
txdude45 wrote:
Well, what I've done has worked very well so far. Something you haven't considered is that you're already going to stick out like a sore thumb at a business casual firm anyway because they're all in plainer pants and shirts that aren't solid white or blue. I went on one callback in dark grey suit/white shirt and was uncomfortably overdressed. I dressed down in light blue or grey with a pattered shirt for the others, actually looked like I belonged in the building, and felt 100% more comfortable.

I play to the firm. If they're business casual, I lighten the suit and wear a shirt I actually like. If they're business formal (haven't had one of these yet), I'll go with the classic suit/tie combos. You don't have to agree with me, but I've converted every callback so far to an offer, so clearly my advice isn't bad.
Presumably you can see the logical flaw in the bolded.

You may be an outlier. You may be interviewing in TX/the south.

Just because you're more comfortable in wearing something that's risky and interview better that way doesn't mean you should tell the average OCI interviewer to do so. The common advice on TLS is that your dress should not be noticed either way. That is absolutely the best advice re: dress even if there are certain outliers.

I know people who had very awkward conversations about how they were dressed in their interviews and regretted following the advice you just gave. This is especially true at firms in lower manhattan.
Yeah, that bolded part was marginally useful anecdotal stuff. The firms I've been to (all in NY) were business casual, so I stood out less by wearing what I wore. I'm not saying people should do what I do, I'm saying that it is reasonable to do what I do. Some places you'll absolutely want to go traditional, but if you don't need to I don't see the point in doing so. Like you said, I'm more comfortable dressing that way, so I take the (incredibly slight) risk someone will feel a certain way about what I wore. Everyone has to run that calc for themselves.

Sidenote: $50 Chipotle gift card for anyone who has the grapes to rock a tan or seersucker suit to EIP or a callback.
Dude, I'm the interviewer (I'm an associate) and if someone showed up dressed like you suggest, I mentally dock a few points. You're supposed to be way more formal than me - that's the custom. Maybe someone else doesn't MIND you being dressed with "personality", but you're never going to get bonus points for it - at best, it doesn't hurt you, and with some folks (me, my pop, 80% of the 50-something and 60-something lawyers in NY) it will hurt you.

(FWIW, I once wore a brooks brothers tie with horses to a practice interview, real conservative shit, and the feedback I got was that the tie was too risky because it was pale yellow. The horror. But you get my point.)

Just wear a fucking interview suit with a white shirt. Is it that hard?

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Re: Columbia EIP 2014

Post by helix23 » Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:34 pm

txdude45 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:While we're on the topic of clothing: any male fashionistas have good shirt color/tie color recommendations for a light gray suit? Love the suit, not sure what to pair with it.
For OCI? White shirt, deep red tie (think burgundy). Nothing too bright. It's classic and'll work fine.
I'm also wearing a grey suit for at least one day, but I'm going with more colorful shirts for EIP. Considering that most of the associates I've seen have had patterned multi-color shirts, I'm much more comfortable putting a little personality into the endeavor. I think solid matte ties are always the only option though.

Since I can barely dress myself, I usually do google image searches and copy what models are wearing.
^ Beware readers: this guy is 10x better looking and more charismatic than you. Dress conservatively.

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Re: Columbia EIP 2014

Post by txdude45 » Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:38 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Dude, I'm the interviewer (I'm an associate) and if someone showed up dressed like you suggest, I mentally dock a few points.
I've already said I'm completely okay being docked a few points in exchange for feeling comfortable in the interview. In the interest of not derailing the thread further, lets just agree that we aren't going to see eye to eye.
helix23 wrote:
^ Beware readers: this guy is 10x better looking and more charismatic than you. Dress conservatively.
Helix, I knew I missed you most of all the '16ers. Generally I can hold court like a champ, but I regularly go full aspie in amazingly terrible ways.

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Re: Columbia EIP 2014

Post by helix23 » Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:46 pm

txdude45 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Dude, I'm the interviewer (I'm an associate) and if someone showed up dressed like you suggest, I mentally dock a few points.
I've already said I'm completely okay being docked a few points in exchange for feeling comfortable in the interview. In the interest of not derailing the thread further, lets just agree that we aren't going to see eye to eye.
helix23 wrote:
^ Beware readers: this guy is 10x better looking and more charismatic than you. Dress conservatively.
Helix, I knew I missed you most of all the '16ers. Generally I can hold court like a champ, but I regularly go full aspie in amazingly terrible ways.
well big dude upstairs had to give the rest of us a fighting chance. #16ers4life

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Re: Columbia EIP 2014

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:51 pm

For guys, "dress like Barack Obama" is the best advice I've heard. Maybe minus that lapel pin.

-psyduck

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Re: Columbia EIP 2014

Post by txdude45 » Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:53 pm

Anonymous User wrote:For guys, "dress like Barack Obama" is the best advice I've heard. Maybe minus that lapel pin.

-psyduck
Why, cause I'm black? Don't microaggress me.

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Re: Columbia EIP 2014

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Jul 20, 2014 9:14 pm

I was going to say dress like George Bush because he's also a TX dude.

Just so I'm not abusing anon, I'll add that I haven't had much luck mass mailing yet (though I still think everyone should mass mail). Those of you who have gotten callbacks--did you write super tailored cover letters?

-psyduck

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Re: Columbia EIP 2014

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Jul 20, 2014 9:24 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I was going to say dress like George Bush because he's also a TX dude.

Just so I'm not abusing anon, I'll add that I haven't had much luck mass mailing yet (though I still think everyone should mass mail). Those of you who have gotten callbacks--did you write super tailored cover letters?

-psyduck
I've had a few callbacks, all in my home market, and my cover letters have been very detailed in terms of the love I have for my hometown/reasons for wanting to get back, and had an attorney that i knew at each firm.

-Joseph Anton

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Re: Columbia EIP 2014

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Jul 20, 2014 9:31 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I was going to say dress like George Bush because he's also a TX dude.

Just so I'm not abusing anon, I'll add that I haven't had much luck mass mailing yet (though I still think everyone should mass mail). Those of you who have gotten callbacks--did you write super tailored cover letters?

-psyduck
I didn't tailor them very much at all. I think its hard to break the presumption that whatever you wrote was the product of a mad lib style generic cover letter you wrote. Putting in the work to make everything unique to break that presumption would be incredibly time consuming, however I think if you say the firm name enough and change your practice preferences and justifications to match the firm, you can get most of the effect with a fraction of the work. Got a good number of callbacks in NY and a couple secondary markets.

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Re: Columbia EIP 2014

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:06 pm

TXdude- Just curious about your callback info because I havn't mass mailed and I'm not in the city this summer. Have you done a ton of interviews? Are they firms that are at EIP?

Trying to figure out if I'm behind in prep

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Re: Columbia EIP 2014

Post by txdude45 » Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:07 pm

Anonymous User wrote:TXdude- Just curious about your callback info because I havn't mass mailed and I'm not in the city this summer. Have you done a ton of interviews? Are they firms that are at EIP?

Trying to figure out if I'm behind in prep
I'm not gonna say in the forum. Feel free to PM me.

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Re: Columbia EIP 2014

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:17 pm

txdude45 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:For guys, "dress like Barack Obama" is the best advice I've heard. Maybe minus that lapel pin.

-psyduck
Why, cause I'm black? Don't microaggress me.

Ah, this explains it. I was going to add to my prior posts (but hesitated) that, notwithstanding my advice to be as conservative as possible in interview dress, there are two exceptions: if you are black or obviously gay. Because no one will ever dock a black guy or gay guy's attire for fear of seeming intolerant. Dude I was friendly with in LS, overtly gay, wore fucking black leather quasi cowboy boots to some of his callbacks - offer, offer, offer. He was a ninja. A gay, offer-getting ninja.

But for the white heteros - and I know you're out there! - navy or grey suit, white shirt, brick red or soft blue tie. Can't go wrong.

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Re: Columbia EIP 2014

Post by txdude45 » Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:51 pm

Updated list of things that I love about being a black male: I always have extra seats next to me on public transportation, Oxfam people don't try to hand me pamphlets, there is always a store clerk in whisper range should I need help selecting clothes, and I can deviate from the standard interview attire.

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Re: Columbia EIP 2014

Post by jbagelboy » Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:58 am

Anonymous User wrote:
txdude45 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:For guys, "dress like Barack Obama" is the best advice I've heard. Maybe minus that lapel pin.

-psyduck
Why, cause I'm black? Don't microaggress me.

Ah, this explains it. I was going to add to my prior posts (but hesitated) that, notwithstanding my advice to be as conservative as possible in interview dress, there are two exceptions: if you are black or obviously gay. Because no one will ever dock a black guy or gay guy's attire for fear of seeming intolerant. Dude I was friendly with in LS, overtly gay, wore fucking black leather quasi cowboy boots to some of his callbacks - offer, offer, offer. He was a ninja. A gay, offer-getting ninja.

But for the white heteros - and I know you're out there! - navy or grey suit, white shirt, brick red or soft blue tie. Can't go wrong.
yea, the grey (or black) suit/white shirt/striped blue tie is my go-to as tall/straight/white/male. but txdude looks great in basically anything.

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Re: Columbia EIP 2014

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:06 am

Thoughts on tie-clips?

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Re: Columbia EIP 2014

Post by apparentlynew » Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:20 am

Dress conservatively. Yes, you'll look like nearly every other law student they see. But repeat after me:

No one, and I mean no one, is hired for their clothes.

They are, however, dinged for their clothes.

Don't give a stupid interviewer a reason to ding you. Tie clip? Looks fine, but some psycho who just got done billing 100 hours this week might not think so. Whimsically patterned shirt? Sharp! But the octogenarian partner hiring with an eye toward who'll look good entombed in his pyramid doesn't agree.

It's grades and personality, folks. And the scary thing about "personality" is that it largely means "do I feel comfortable with this person"--and these people are nearly all rich and white, which is why they spent decades thinking "I'm not racist, I'm just not 'comfortable' with these poor/black/gay kids." Dressing well but conservatively (charcoal/navy suit, white/blue shirt) is how you guarantee that your clothes don't ding you by making the interviewer feel weird ("is this guy better-dressed than I am?" or "ugh, this guy seems poor, get me out of here"). You want these people to think you're one of them already (and guess how they're dressed).

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Re: Columbia EIP 2014

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Jul 21, 2014 10:14 am

Question about ties. I'm going with a navy suit and a white shirt, but is it a safe bet to go with some different tie colors (yellow or silver tone) as long as they're not too fancy?

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